[Spheres of Power] Wraith base class Playtest

[Slavezero]

not sure how well it would work but maybe give the wraith some way to go to the ethereal plane? it makes sense for the class and you could possibly use it as a scouting tool or use it to bypass or flank enemy's. plus since wraiths have possession maybe it could give them an easier time body jacking people or something

[khadgar567]

not sure how well it would work but maybe give the wraith some way to go to the ethereal plane? it makes sense for the class and you could possibly use it as a scouting tool or use it to bypass or flank enemy's. plus since wraiths have possession maybe it could give them an easier time body jacking people or something

another good idea for updated version of the class.

[khadgar567]

okay lets review this class so we can get the 0.2 ready
as whole threat said again and again possession feels to short to be usefull in both combat and scouting in dungeon and the feats suppose to expend the time limit feels like feat tax to be honest when i first read the class i immediately look both lingering possession and expended possession and hope using both will give me all day possession. But what i get is none of i hoped. so when i said paths of suck i kinda mean it.
Path of ancestors putting protection talent on host is good but in lot of encounters you need to kill the enemy either quicker or for this classes case control one of them to effect numbers game. Which path does not helps in any way you can protect squishes to help your party but one of you either the host or you need to sit doing nothing in combat where one more dps caster or possessed meat shield will be more usefull and enjoyable instead. so my suggestion either buff this to path or scrap it. Or if you want to keep it put in to sphere like fallen fey so its there when you want it and same time its not there if you dont want it.

Path of anima: So we can turn in to elemental. News flash any sphere caster can do it from level one with alteration sphere with elemental transformation. Hell even paizo's own shifter can do it better then this and shifter is freaking martial class to bout. so my suggestion scrap it completely.

Path of corrupter: Death and corruption are kinda not mesh in peoples mind corruption means you start as good and thanks to possession from this class you start to go slippery slope in to worshiping asmodeus with out knowing you fell from grace. Not i posses corpses way the currently path wants to go. My suggestion turn in to mind sphere with new focus as if player gonna go death sphere its much better to go minionmancy route then posses single corpse at a time.

Path of cryptid: Possessing animals and fighting with them. you know this path and its abilities better works as part of the supportive sphere which stating point works animal possession with talent like superior possession to by past it before getting enough level to naturally posses humanoids then other eventual upgrades.

Path of despoiler: Ability to posses vermin might be sound cool in your mind but believe me its a headache as a) where you gonna find them when you need it. and b every one of them kinda either tiny or small so getting road kill is kinda to easy to accomplish. Suggestion make this optional talent on supporting sphere so we can grab it via hedgewitch secret.

Path of poltergeist: You know i kinda get the point you stuck on designing path of a class whose shick is possessing some one and decide to make a path mimic basic ghost powers. While telekinesis sphere and any one with predestination cantrip can pull same stunts with out this much hassle. suggestion put to in the supporting sphere as option instead of making it in to path.

Path of shadow: I dont know how its usefull since adventuring 101 is you keep some torches in the event you dont have dark vision. suggestion either scrap it or make it i dont know persons shadow focused.

Path of spook: To intimidate based build here we go. You know intimidating some one kinda hard enough to accomplish such that its better to posses random rat rather then spend entire build to secure a way to reliably posses some one via this. Suggestion scrap this and put i dont know a enchantment path that allows you to offer deal with the devil.

Path of illusion: Here is actually usable path if we dont have problem of will saves as any caster worth of salt knows detect magic so they can disbelief as free action. Suggestion unless class gets a way to shut down will save enough. Scrap this and start from scratch.

So here is the part one of the most needed review of the class to get 0.2 iteration of the class

[khadgar567]

Part 2 of wraith review for 0.2 edition request.
so here is the haunts:
Amnesiac possession: Good choice to pick as helps player in both scouting and thievery needs plus gives solid way to break wealth by level as any NPC possessed by the class is new bank account full of money needs to be spend on party needs. My advice keep it as it is hell even buff it up a bit.

benevolent possesion: Another good pick if we can posses long enough to get benifits of it.

consume host: As nasty as it is kinda good pick when you need to make your big reveal in the big bads inner sanctum.
deep pass: i am not sure how to rate this one as possesing one of the mooks kinda do the same. but playing ghost is also okay to.

Disorienting Possession: making host do a fort save when you stop possesing. while it feels kinda good amnesiac
possesion feels better as first makes sure host does not spill the beans. secondly makes sure host is ready for the get away.

dominate ooze: no comment as it expends the list of things class can posses.

expend path possesion: ability to gain another path is good if the paths worth it.

forced wraith form: ability to rip souls kinda feels good pick but unless we can keep body and destroy the soul its kinda bad.

ghostly fade: Flavorfull ability to escape:

ghost glide and its improvement: classic flight granting ability no comment needed.

ghost in the machine: flavorful abilty for technology heavy campings

ghost ride: standard ghost power to be hidden from the host nothing worth to comment.

ghost talent no comment you gain bonus talent from paths sphere.

hidden rider good pick for any one who wants to infiltrate a church via possesing one of the priests.

imroved path ability: yay we get second power from other path we choosed.

into the air. immidiate action wraith form nice when you need to scram for exit.

Lengthened Control: Every ones first looked and disapointed talent as this is gonna be solution to classes biggest problem but what do we have here a disappointment of hopes to save the class might well as put 20th level tag so its worth the heartache.

Lingering Incorporeality: abilty to keep wraith form two more turns until we reach the next meat suit.

object ride.well another ghost power we need to spent talent to do.

posses armaments: ability to give enchantment bonus to items we posses. well its there if we can posses long enough to need it.

reactive possesion: good pick alalong as allows that suprise class to utilize the surprise turn.

share wraith form. good pick for all team as it allows party to pull oceans eleven on the target. kinda liked it actually as mook rebels to his boss suddenly dies ( from consume host) and suddenly whole party is in the big bads sanctum ready to face him.
steal thoughts. good pick for the interrogation and abilty to do not caught while possesing some one out of character.
Part 2 done i hope we get the 0.2 version quick as this is the only requirement before boosted possesion time this class desperately need.

[Mehangel]

khadgar567, Maybe go back and reformat your posts, specifically make bold the names of different paths, etc or atleast separate each with a double space. As it is, I find it painful to look at, let alone read (it comes off as just huge wall of text).

[khadgar567]

about that up coming update to wraith class is any one know when we can get our grubby paws to it or i need to start brewing the update/ patch my self's only thing we needed for the update was honest review of the class and i thing with the posts of mine we completed that. please just few words on update s eta or when we end this excruciating pain and publish the patched or unpatched version so we can know.

[stack]

Basically at this point the update will come when I have time for it. Been busy with non-writing stuff. Official publishing won't be for some time regardless. Best not to rush a class.

[stack]

Took much longer than originally planned, but version 0.2 is viewable here.

I have a couple more archetype ideas in the works, but wanted to get the base class revisions in the open.

[khadgar567]

passive possession is glad to have as makes class finally do the scouting role it needs. and boosted time on active possession is realy fixes the biggest problem of the class.
extra in corporeality nice to have. Finally Lengthened Control does what class needs from the start giving us ample time to both scout the dungeon and if we want to make sure host has decent trouble for us.
ranged possession is welcome to see.

well 0.2 version of the wraith looks much better thanks to increased time on possesion we can now gatter info without to much problem.

[calyst]

The inability to possess creatures of CR over class level -2, means this possession ability is rather hard to use on anything you are likely to fight that isn't a mook, and you likely can not use it on your own party members, maybe animal companion or cohort if you took Leadership, and if you multi-class it is unlikely you will be able to use the possession ability for anything worthwhile, maybe ride weak undead if you went that route.

[stack]

The inability to possess creatures of CR over class level -2, means this possession ability is rather hard to use on anything you are likely to fight that isn't a mook, and you likely can not use it on your own party members, maybe animal companion or cohort if you took Leadership, and if you multi-class it is unlikely you will be able to use the possession ability for anything worthwhile, maybe ride weak undead if you went that route.

Someday I may learn to stop making last minute changes. Yeah, that's a problem. Probably be able to fix it tomorrow.

[stack]

Changed to CR +1. We can see how people find it in play and tweak from there. Not sure what I was thinking on the -2 thing.

Edit - Also noticed that comment were not enabled on the new doc. Fixed.

[dude123nice]

What about possesing animal companions, eidolons, conjuration sphere companions etc. who do not posses a CR?

[stack]

What about possesing animal companions, eidolons, conjuration sphere companions etc. who do not posses a CR?

Excellent question!

Maybe simplest to define them as CR= HD -X for the purpose of the ability. 2 maybe? Not accurate across the whole level range, but has the benefit of simplicity.

[khadgar567]

Excellent question!

Maybe simplest to define them as CR= HD -X for the purpose of the ability. 2 maybe? Not accurate across the whole level range, but has the benefit of simplicity.

HD works but same time creates the problem of templates best approach i think is give wraith a sphere so we can kinda solve the problem. I know i always say give wraith a sphere every time but currently class has no defined go to sphere to boost the efficency of possesion skill.

[dude123nice]

HD works but same time creates the problem of templates best approach i think is give wraith a sphere so we can kinda solve the problem. I know i always say give wraith a sphere every time but currently class has no defined go to sphere to boost the efficency of possesion skill.

How does creating a new sphere do anything to solve the issue i pointed out? To me it seems like wraith class features clearly give it ways to improve it's possesion ability and wether it is a sphere or through class abilities creatures wothout a given CR still are a problem to solve.

[khadgar567]

How does creating a new sphere do anything to solve the issue i pointed out? To me it seems like wraith class features clearly give it ways to improve it's possesion ability and wether it is a sphere or through class abilities creatures wothout a given CR still are a problem to solve.

answer is simple give each corner case a talent so they are under control
like
hostile possesion
as swift action spending a spell point you can posses summoned creature whos level 2 lower then yours.

[dude123nice]

answer is simple give each corner case a talent so they are under control
like
hostile possesion
as swift action spending a spell point you can posses summoned creature whos level 2 lower then yours.

Or that can just be a specified in the class feature. I just don't understand what would be gained if you made that into a sphete instead of a class feature. There probably wouldn't even be a need for a new class anymore.

[stack]

Or that can just be a specified in the class feature. I just don't understand what would be gained if you made that into a sphete instead of a class feature. There probably wouldn't even be a need for a new class anymore.

The possession mechanic could be done as a sphere and doing so would remove the need for the class. The line between talent and class feature can be pretty fuzzy. I have chosen to work it as a class, bundling the incorporeal and possession aspects together into one base. I think it works well this way.

[khadgar567]

The possession mechanic could be done as a sphere and doing so would remove the need for the class. The line between talent and class feature can be pretty fuzzy. I have chosen to work it as a class, bundling the incorporeal and possession aspects together into one base. I think it works well this way.

still options to play celebrimbor would be nice with all sprit stuff bow and glaive as part of the class.

[stack]

Added the unbodied archetype (needs a name that doesn't overlap with psionics). Its rather experimental, more-so than even the base class, so...yeah, I expect there to be problems and it may not make final release, but I wanted to hear poeple's thoughts.

[dude123nice]

I have a few questions regarding both the base class and the Unbodied archetype
First, I am a little confused on wether or not the wraith gains any of the standard benefits of incorporeality in wraith form, such as deflection bonus to AC.

Also, for a low level unbodied the spell point tax of their possesion ability is going to be a nightmare. A low level unbodied without a willing host probably can't even survive since he will run out of spell points before he even has a chance to regain them, not to mention that if a the target succeeds on their saving throw, the unbodied is out of luck for 24 hours. Even with a willing host, the unbodied has to constantly end the possesion and start it again, since spendiing a spell point to extend the duration for 3 or 4 hours at a time geta costly pretty quickly. Actually i would argue that, for the base wraith as well, having to spend spell points to extend possesion of a willing host is just an unnecessary spell point tax, especially at low levels.

[Omnificer]

I have a few questions regarding both the base class and the Unbodied archetype
First, I am a little confused on wether or not the wraith gains any of the standard benefits of incorporeality in wraith form, such as deflection bonus to AC.

There is actually a list on the 5th and 6th pages of what all you get for being incorporeal. Like the deflection bonus to AC is explicitly listed as your Charisma mod.

Also, for a low level unbodied the spell point tax of their possesion ability is going to be a nightmare. A low level unbodied without a willing host probably can't even survive since he will run out of spell points before he even has a chance to regain them, not to mention that if a the target succeeds on their saving throw, the unbodied is out of luck for 24 hours. Even with a willing host, the unbodied has to constantly end the possesion and start it again, since spendiing a spell point to extend the duration for 3 or 4 hours at a time geta costly pretty quickly. Actually i would argue that, for the base wraith as well, having to spend spell points to extend possesion of a willing host is just an unnecessary spell point tax, especially at low levels.

An Unbodied by itself or without very trusting allies does seem pretty screwed. Maybe an alternate version of Object Ride might help with that. The Unbodied can shelter in an inanimate object (without a spell point like Object Ride requires) passively and spend a spell point to actively possess it. Kind of like Bob the Skull in Dresden Files.

Added the unbodied archetype (needs a name that doesn't overlap with psionics). Its rather experimental, more-so than even the base class, so...yeah, I expect there to be problems and it may not make final release, but I wanted to hear poeple's thoughts.

I can see that the non-lethal damage is to keep people from just being super scouts 100% of the time but what are the ramifications if they do pass out? They are unconscious, still taking the nonlethal and eventually lethal damage (I think) so they can never wake up and their allies can't help because it can only be removed by possessing something.

So, the Unbodied is neat way of directly playing a ghost like creature from the start. Looking at the retraining section it sounds like you're anticipating a standard Wraith losing touch with their physical self late in a game and retraining to Unbodied to reflect that. In that instance the limitations aren't as extreme, but that sounds more like a Prestige Class than an Archetype. And even a high level Wraith can still just straight up die with no chance of being saved if there aren't willing people around and they don't have Object Ride or Spell Points.

[stack]

The unbodied definitely has a few kinks to work out and I thank you for highlighting them. I am thinking the nonlethal could be capped so it doesn't spill over into lethal damage, or else it could have some kind of 'discorporate and reform x hours later' mechanic. Object ride is good; biggest challenge is shoving all that in to first level. Makes it rather packed.

Comments on re-upping passive on willing targets are well made. Popping out and back in repeatedly does seem unnecessary.

[dude123nice]

There is actually a list on the 5th and 6th pages of what all you get for being incorporeal. Like the deflection bonus to AC is explicitly listed as your Charisma mod.

I've seen that. I am not asking what are the normal benefits of being incorporeal, i am asking if the wraith ACTUALLY receives ANY of these benefits or if he only receives the benefits stated in the wraith form entry. The main reason I am asking this is because one of the benefits of wraith form, taking half damage from nonmagical weapons, is just a weaker version of the incorporeal benefit of taking half damage from all corporeal damage, including most spells and magic weapons. Does this mean that wraith form intentionally overwrites that ability with a weaker one? Or does wraith form not receive ANY brnefits of normal incorporeal creatures, and only the benefits stated in wraith form's description.

EDDIT: Also some people would argue that receiving CHA to AC with no catch like the monk or investment like the striker is a bit strong for a PC. If you have a ghost touch weapon this would make wraithform into a pure combat buff.

[stack]

Added - "The duration of an ongoing possession may be reset with the same action and spell point cost that was required to initiate it."

Shuffled a few things around to sort costs/benefits on the unbodied. May be easier to 'pay' for things with an HD drop. I have had the 'Bob' thought before, working on how to make that fit in without overloading it. Maybe a limited object ride (single bound object of limited size).

dude123nice - the benefits for incorporeal are as normal except where noted; some aspects are intentionally overwritten with weaker ones. CHA to AC is replacing any armor/shield you wear, so it isn't without cost. Also limited in rounds/day of use (unless unbodied, which has its own drawbacks).

[Slavezero]

whats your thoughts on a wraith haunt that adds in some/all of the incorporeal traits that the wraith is missing? and what about adding something that deals with the ethereal plane since the wraith is so close to death or what not that they gain ghost powers it would make sense that they can do something with it.

also on the whole flight issue i think it would be fine since it's not too much of a problem as base pathfinder has the strix race that starts with fly and with spheres it's really not hard to get since if i remember right you can get it at level 3 rather easily

[Omnificer]

I have some questions, thoughts, and assumptions I want to clear up, let me know if the assumptions are incorrect.

Assumptions:
I assume that possessing a creature means you can use touch spells without issue. I also assume you have line of sight and effect to whatever your host does, so you could passively possess an ally and shoot Destruction sphere orbs out of their body all day, assuming you haven't taken Verbal or Somatic drawbacks.

I assume that for possessing a Small Fire Elemental through the Path of Anima its bonus feats such as Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse and the Extraordinary ability Burn all count as ongoing passive abilities that don't need to be activated and work normally while possessing, even below 6th level.

Questions:
This line "The creature’s combat talents, feats that require active use, magic talents, spells, sphere abilities, and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body." and the chart stating you keep the host's bonus feats are hard for me to understand.

Are only non-activated bonus feats kept? Or are all non-activated feats kept, bonus and from host HD?
If activated bonus feats are kept, does the Wraith ever get the ability to activate them?
Does the Wraith ever get access to the host's non-bonus feats, activated or passive? The 6th, 12th, 16th, and 18 upgrades to possession don't mention feats as far as I can tell.

If you have Path of the Anima, do you get the Caster level = class level to both Weather and Nature, or do you have to choose one?

Thoughts:
1) Possessed creatures still get a save against things like Alteration, like an unwilling possessed owlbear for instance requires an additional spell point and it gets a Fort save to be buffed.
2) Animals/Magical Beasts/Vermin are a small portion of enemies. Of course the Wraith can possess any creature, but these are easier for it.
Therefore it seems like a Path of the Cryptid or Despoiler may want an animal companion to have consistent usage of their strengths. That would probably involve the Bound Creature boon or the Beastmastery sphere. Unfortunately the Bound Creature would have the midcaster Conjuration progression and would be more likely to die if you're possessing it, leaving you with spell casting failure chance for a month. The Beastmastery (tame) sphere is better. They could bring along possession friendly pets. But I think to get a full companion a Cryptid wouldn't be able to get any Animal Companion until 3rd level which would be below full companion strength until 5th level, and the Despoiler would need to wait until 7th level for a Vermin companion. This is through giving up every feat to get Beastmastery -> Animal Companion x2 -> Broad Skills (for Despoiler).
The Anima path seems to have an easier time creating disposable Elemental bodies without the major drawbacks when they die.
Do you have any suggestions for dealing with those constraints?

Have you considered something like the Path of the Ancestor with Fate instead of Protection? Consecrations moving with you for passive bonuses and Curses for active actions seems both appropriate and effective.

[stack]

whats your thoughts on a wraith haunt that adds in some/all of the incorporeal traits that the wraith is missing? and what about adding something that deals with the ethereal plane since the wraith is so close to death or what not that they gain ghost powers it would make sense that they can do something with it.

also on the whole flight issue i think it would be fine since it's not too much of a problem as base pathfinder has the strix race that starts with fly and with spheres it's really not hard to get since if i remember right you can get it at level 3 rather easily

Not sure what kind of ghost powers you mean. They have possession and telekinesis is only a sphere away. An AOE intimidate could work. For corrupting touch you can take destruction.

Strix is almost universally banned at low levels in my experience. Alteration can give flight at 1 (elemental transformation - air elemental, costs a spell point). Since wraith form is limited, the alteration argument is fairly strong.

I have some questions, thoughts, and assumptions I want to clear up, let me know if the assumptions are incorrect.

Assumptions:
I assume that possessing a creature means you can use touch spells without issue. I also assume you have line of sight and effect to whatever your host does, so you could passively possess an ally and shoot Destruction sphere orbs out of their body all day, assuming you haven't taken Verbal or Somatic drawbacks.

I assume that for possessing a Small Fire Elemental through the Path of Anima its bonus feats such as Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse and the Extraordinary ability Burn all count as ongoing passive abilities that don't need to be activated and work normally while possessing, even below 6th level.

Questions:
This line "The creature’s combat talents, feats that require active use, magic talents, spells, sphere abilities, and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body." and the chart stating you keep the host's bonus feats are hard for me to understand.

Are only non-activated bonus feats kept? Or are all non-activated feats kept, bonus and from host HD?
If activated bonus feats are kept, does the Wraith ever get the ability to activate them?
Does the Wraith ever get access to the host's non-bonus feats, activated or passive? The 6th, 12th, 16th, and 18 upgrades to possession don't mention feats as far as I can tell.

If you have Path of the Anima, do you get the Caster level = class level to both Weather and Nature, or do you have to choose one?

Thoughts:
1) Possessed creatures still get a save against things like Alteration, like an unwilling possessed owlbear for instance requires an additional spell point and it gets a Fort save to be buffed.
2) Animals/Magical Beasts/Vermin are a small portion of enemies. Of course the Wraith can possess any creature, but these are easier for it.
Therefore it seems like a Path of the Cryptid or Despoiler may want an animal companion to have consistent usage of their strengths. That would probably involve the Bound Creature boon or the Beastmastery sphere. Unfortunately the Bound Creature would have the midcaster Conjuration progression and would be more likely to die if you're possessing it, leaving you with spell casting failure chance for a month. The Beastmastery (tame) sphere is better. They could bring along possession friendly pets. But I think to get a full companion a Cryptid wouldn't be able to get any Animal Companion until 3rd level which would be below full companion strength until 5th level, and the Despoiler would need to wait until 7th level for a Vermin companion. This is through giving up every feat to get Beastmastery -> Animal Companion x2 -> Broad Skills (for Despoiler).
The Anima path seems to have an easier time creating disposable Elemental bodies without the major drawbacks when they die.
Do you have any suggestions for dealing with those constraints?

Have you considered something like the Path of the Ancestor with Fate instead of Protection? Consecrations moving with you for passive bonuses and Curses for active actions seems both appropriate and effective.

While actively possessing a creature, using touch spells is not an issue.

I probably need to fix the table regarding feats. I will need to look into it.

Anima chooses one sphere as its path sphere to get full CL in.

Beastmastery is useful for those paths. Animals can be purchased for use at low levels and are common enemies early on. I would like to grant a martial tradition, but that would overload level 1 I think. Originally cryptid was an archetype that granted a companion, but I rolled it into a path instead. I suppose a familiar or animal companion set of haunts wouldn't be crazy. Have to think about it.

Protection works neatly for ancestor given the way aegis talents work. Fate consecrations could work and it would be thematic. Thematically, life could work too. Not sure I want to have a path for each, just from the perspective of the number of paths that makes since the class is already wordy.

[Slavezero]

Not sure what kind of ghost powers you mean. They have possession and telekinesis is only a sphere away. An AOE intimidate could work. For corrupting touch you can take destruction.

Strix is almost universally banned at low levels in my experience. Alteration can give flight at 1 (elemental transformation - air elemental, costs a spell point). Since wraith form is limited, the alteration argument is fairly strong.

ahh i had misread so i thought they were missing more stuff then that still to clarify what i had intended to say would a wraith haunt that gives them they're full cha to ac like a normal ghost be too powerful?