OOTS #1117 - The Discussion Thread

[Doug Lampert]

I hope it's clear that I wouldn't either. Using the Snarl for Pantheocide seems more up their alley, among other potential ideas.

Yep, I've been assuming that their endgame involves the destruction of the world (hence 5x as many good dragons dying not a problem) and also bringing down the gods of good.

[Ruck]

Twenty gold says the IFCC's role in the plot goes beyond Hel's.

I would agree with you, although I actually think that the reasoning that Hel's and the IFCC's goals might be the same (at least regarding the end of the Material Plane, if not for the same reasons) is fairly sound.

[Shining Wrath]

You guys have made me think about the IFCC and Hel, so you have only yourselves to blame.

Hel's plan relies upon her seizing the dwarven souls who die without honor when the world is unmade.

Hypothesis: the balance of souls between good, neutral, and evil is roughly equal.

If Hel's plan succeeds and a whole bunch of good-aligned dwarven souls wind up feeding the power of an evil god, it tips the balance cosmically, and the new world will be more evil-friendly, and the powers represented by the IFCC will be able to do more evil things, and possibly slaughter all the good people in the new world, eventually depriving the Good gods of "fuel" and leading to Victory for the Forces of Evil (FoEs).

[Fish]

They said the fact that their scheme will bring down the gods of Good was technically true. Seems like there's much more to it.

What they said was, "I managed to convince her that it was an unfortunate necessity of a secret scheme to bring down the gods of Good."

Ways it can be technically true:

1. It is a scheme, but it is not their scheme. We know that Hel has such a scheme (although we, the readers, did not know it at the time) so in some way, perhaps "it" (whatever it was, see 2) was necessary for Hel's scheme, which the IFCC may or may not support.

2. I presume "it" (the unfortunate necessity) refers to Familicide, which was enabled by the IFCC, to kill a sizeable portion of the black dragon population. Perhaps the "it" that the IFCC is referring to is not what we think it is. Allowing V to escape from Xykon? Allowing Xykon to take down V? Who knows what Tiamat's interest is.

3. "Bring down" is not meant as a synonym for "lay low, defeat, disempower." Maybe the scheme is to bring them literally down ... for a visit to hell, or something. Or a parley.

4. "The gods of Good" might refer to something other than the entire pantheon of good-aligned deities. Perhaps it refers only to two or three gods of Good in particular, and the IFCC was exaggerating with vagueness. Perhaps their scheme is to bring down all gods, which happens to include the gods of Good. And, in fact, we have already seen the "gods of Good" (and others) "brought down" at the Godsmoot.

Is that a very fine parsing of the sentence? Yes. But when something is technically true, it's asking for fine parsing.

[arimareiji]

Not directed to anyone specific, just an old saying I'm reminded of whenever I visit OotS forums:


How many pinheads can dance on an angel? :-/

[zimmerwald1915]

Not directed to anyone specific, just an old saying I'm reminded of whenever I visit OotS forums:


How many pinheads can dance on an angel? :-/

Don't be absurd - intellectuals can't dance.

[TRH]

Don't be absurd - intellectuals can't dance.

What if they're hit with Otto's Irresistible Dance?

[georgie_leech]

What if they're hit with Otto's Irresistible Dance?

Then they'll try, bless their hearts.

[SilverCacaobean]

<snip>

I very much doubt they're working for Hel. For one, Hel had this plan ready for a very long time, but she only put it in motion after she had a high level cleric at her disposal. The conversation with Tiamat happened before that. It would also undermine their point that Evil isn't one big happy family if three fiends were working, not with, for a goddess as if Evil is a big happy family. Why would Hel need their support anyway? I don't know, I can't see anything there. Or are you implying that they somehow knew of Hel's plan and they're using her? Pretty unlikely too. It's probably two groups of villains who happened to be scheming at the same time.

Your second point doesn't make much sense. He isn't being technical now, he was technical before, over the phone. He's pretty straightforward now and when he's saying "it was an unfortunate necessity" "It" refers to what Tiamat was upset about. This can only be Familicide.

Also I don't think their plan will be underwhelming or unambitious. Being Hel's lackeys, scheming to bring gods down for a visit or only targeting three gods is both.

[Shining Wrath]

Don't be absurd - intellectuals can't dance.

What if they're hit with Otto's Irresistible Dance?

Then they'll try, bless their hearts.

Pedant voice Well, actually, it depends on what your definition of "dance" is.

[arimareiji]

Pedant voice Well, actually, it depends on what your definition of "dance" is.

"Bueller... Bueller..." voice In this case, we should analyze their performance as we would "weeping willow" or "laughing hyena"... not performing the literal action, but something about it vaguely reminds a beholder of the literal action.

I think the original question may have come full circle.

For bonus credit, "How evil is it to dance on an angel?" Use Godwin's constant, rounding your answer to the nearest millinazi.

[Peelee]

"Bueller... Bueller..." voice

Ben Stein. Pretty interesting guy, though I won't go into that.

[Fyraltari]

It's not mostly about V's alignment; animals are always Neutral, and although making one into a familiar changes its type to "magical beast" and increases its intelligence (among other things), it doesn't change the animal's alignment. Presumably familiars are about as likely to change alignment sometime after that as any other free-willed intelligent creature, i.e. not very likely. Having a master of different alignment might influence them some, but that doesn't apply here.

Considering Blackwing's role as V's conscience and general lack of selfish acts, I would not be surprised if it was revealed he became Good at some point.

I think they intend to bring down all the gods. Perhaps they intend to hijack Redcloak's Plan, but instead of waving the Snarl around they actually mean to use it against the gods or something like that.

But to use the ritual they need divine magic and they are not realted to the gods. So they would need to use a soul that has access to Clerical mojo. But those tend to end up with their patron gods rather than the generic alignment Hell.

Where could they find a dead Divine caster that did not serve any god?

Spoiler

Show

Tsukiko.

... Naaah, that can't be right.

[Jasdoif]

Where could they find a dead Divine caster that did not serve any god?

Spoiler

Show

Tsukiko.

... Naaah, that can't be right.

I would consider worshiping twelve gods to fit under the "serve any god" umbrella.

[zimmerwald1915]

Considering Blackwing's role as V's conscience and general lack of selfish acts, I would not be surprised if it was revealed he became Good at some point.

Blackwing is extremely possessive and greedy, and makes few to no "personal sacrifices to help others." He says himself that all he does is offer Vaarsuvius the "occasional piece of advice," which is free. He was not selfless enough to distract the Death Knight from Vaarsuvius, nor was he willing to part with his ioun stone for the sake of Vaarsuvius's caster level and all the attendant benefits to the party and the world that might have flown from that. A Good person might have done either, or both. He was indignant about the lightning-blocking plan even though with protection from electricity up he would have been all but immune to harm. He was arguably more selfless in the fight with the rat swarm, but he might have been relying on his evasion to protect himself from the failed-UMD backlash. I have no problem seeing him as Neutral based on his acts. Likewise, based on Vaarsuvius's acts, I have no trouble whatsoever with the idea that her "Jiminy Cricket" could be Neutral.

[Sylian]

Considering Blackwing's role as V's conscience and general lack of selfish acts, I would not be surprised if it was revealed he became Good at some point.

Blackwing seems to be pretty good at giving suggestions on how to avoid Evil, but I can't really recall him ever doing anything to further Good (aside from helping to save the world, but so does Belkar). He strikes me as rather Neutral, overall.

[Fyraltari]

I would consider worshiping twelve gods to fit under the "serve any god" umbrella.

I don't remember her even paying lip service to the Twelve Gods. Remeber that Roy "was raised to worship the Northern GodsI guess."

Blackwing is extremely possessive and greedy, and makes few to no "personal sacrifices to help others."

Blackwing doesn't have anything to sacrifice though.

He says himself that all he does is offer Vaarsuvius the "occasional piece of advice," which is free.

And? It's still an effort. Also those are good advices, trying to help someone becoming a better person. That's a good action in my book. Not canonization-worthy, true, but small scope doesn't make it less good.

He was not selfless enough to distract the Death Knight from Vaarsuvius

If your standerd for Good is "willing to get themselves killed to protect someone who (at the time) uses, neglects and belittle you" I am afraid we are doomed to disagree.

nor was he willing to part with his ioun stone for the sake of Vaarsuvius's caster level and all the attendant benefits to the party and the world that might have flown from that. A Good person might have done either, or both.

Huh no? He got that gnome to makeit into a ring so that he can both wear it and give V the bonus. Making sacrifices that can be avoided to get the same outcome is not good it's stupid.

You'll note that h was willing to take the phylactyery and paint a big Lich-target to his back (and get blown up assuming V told him about the Explosive Runes).

He was indignant about the lightning-blocking plan even though with protection from electricity up he would have been all but immune to harm.

Really? I thought that those spells only diminished damage not outright cancelled it.

He was arguably more selfless in the fight with the rat swarm, but he might have been relying on his evasion to protect himself from the failed-UMD backlash.

Pretty sure the swirly line above his head indicates that he did blow himself up.

I have no problem seeing him as Neutral based on his acts. Likewise, based on Vaarsuvius's acts, I have no trouble whatsoever with the idea that her "Jiminy Cricket" could be Neutral.

Blackwing seems to be pretty good at giving suggestions on how to avoid Evil, but I can't really recall him ever doing anything to further Good (aside from helping to save the world, but so does Belkar). He strikes me as rather Neutral, overall.

Neither do I. I meant what I wrote when I wrote "I would not be surprised". I am not claiming his being good is a fact, just that it is a possibility and sits well with his role in the narrative.

[rferries]

Tactics prediction:

I think V actually still has an action (I believe we're meant to assume s/he cast stoneskin on the last round, before moving into the chamber...especially since rushing and wasting an action would be incredibly silly given stoneskin's lengthy duration). However I predict s/he is using a readied action to cast greater dispel magic to counter the vampire spellcasters (or at least the first one to cast a truly threatening spell).

This will give the other PCs time to shine - Roy can Cleave through the spawn to finish them off, or Elan can use mass cure light wounds as mentioned upthread, or Haley can simply pick them off with arrows. Even with a round of fast-healing, the spawn will still be one-shotted.

Since the OOTS has the numbers advantage, the safest tactic is simply for V and Hilgya to spam-counterspell Greg and Ponchula (the 3rd vamp seems relatively low-level so her spells can probably be safely ignored) while the martials get to work. Since they know Greg was ready for them, they might have assumed the vamp casters are already protected against any spells or energy damage they would normally use (protection from energy and/or spell immunity: disintegrate and/or spell resistance, anyone?) so using offensive spells might be a waste of actions. This works dramatically as well, since the OOTS casters won't overshadow the action.

The vamps have probably used up most of their higher-level slots with the symbols. Of course Greg probably has at least one other contingency in place...

[Jasdoif]

I don't remember her even paying lip service to the Twelve Gods. Remeber that Roy "was raised to worship the Northern GodsI guess."

It may not have been mentioned directly in the comic, but....

Southern Gods:
In certain campaign settings, you can be a cleric of a whole pantheon, and this doesn't necessarily influence your alignment. Obviously, unless the majority of the pantheon (or at least those holding the majority of the power) are of an opposite alignment from you, you may have some challenges advancing in the church hierarchy. Even in FR, am I remembering wrong, or is there at least one prestige class that worships the whole Morndinsamman?

Also, this. The Twelve Gods are worshipped as a pantheon, by everyone, including evil characters like Kubota and Tsukiko.

Perhaps she simply wasn't the proselytizing type.

---

Thinking about it a little though, I'm not sure it'd matter. Like the comic you linked mentioned, only alignment matters as far as the afterlife; and we've already seen Lee has a role involving dead souls in some capacity. The question that should instead be asked, I suspect, is whether she'd end up in the hands/claws/generic-appendages/telekinesis-range of the IFCC, in a capacity to actually do something for them.

[Kish]

Really? I thought that those spells only diminished damage not outright cancelled it.

120 damage negated.

If cumulative lightning strikes did 121 damage to Blackwing while Vaarsuvius didn't renew the Protection from Electricity, he'd take one damage, but anything less than 121 would be entirely nullified--there's no minimum damage per strike that automatically gets through.

[Shining Wrath]

Considering Blackwing's role as V's conscience and general lack of selfish acts, I would not be surprised if it was revealed he became Good at some point.



But to use the ritual they need divine magic and they are not realted to the gods. So they would need to use a soul that has access to Clerical mojo. But those tend to end up with their patron gods rather than the generic alignment Hell.

Where could they find a dead Divine caster that did not serve any god?

Spoiler

Show

Tsukiko.

... Naaah, that can't be right.

I'm going to say that they probably have the choice of a lot of clerics who wound up in the lower planes, including some who in life worshiped a non-evil god but died "fallen" in some sense; they headed for an upper plane, and some Deva reviewed their file and sent them to the Great Big Down Elevator of the Afterlife. We see Eugene, who was evidently surprised to learn he wasn't going to get into the LG heaven; I'll bet that happens to some clergy, too, as self-deception is not just for wizards.

[Fyraltari]

It may not have been mentioned directly in the comic, but....Perhaps she simply wasn't the proselytizing type.

Oh, well.

---

Thinking about it a little though, I'm not sure it'd matter. Like the comic you linked mentioned, only alignment matters as far as the afterlife; and we've already seen Lee has a role involving dead souls in some capacity. The question that should instead be asked, I suspect, is whether she'd end up in the hands/claws/generic-appendages/telekinesis-range of the IFCC, in a capacity to actually do something for them.

I think it is you get into the Palne that matches your alignment and from then if you wanna hang with you god, you can.

However if the plan of the IFCC does involve mass deicide I don't think any god would hand one of their own soul to be murdered with. Of course the IFCC could just use them to destroy the Good Gods, I think the Evil ones would be onboard with that.

[Fish]

I very much doubt they're working for Hel. For one, Hel had this plan ready for a very long time, but she only put it in motion after she had a high level cleric at her disposal. The conversation with Tiamat happened before that. It would also undermine their point that Evil isn't one big happy family if three fiends were working, not with, for a goddess as if Evil is a big happy family. Why would Hel need their support anyway? I don't know, I can't see anything there. Or are you implying that they somehow knew of Hel's plan and they're using her?

No, I'm implying they were lying to Tiamat by discussing a scheme they knew was in the works, but which was not necessarily their own scheme; in other words, they were implying the "secret scheme" was their own, without actually saying so.

Your second point doesn't make much sense. He isn't being technical now, he was technical before, over the phone. He's pretty straightforward now and when he's saying "it was an unfortunate necessity" "It" refers to what Tiamat was upset about. This can only be Familicide.

It's likely Familicide, I agree, but it was not explicit.

Also I don't think their plan will be underwhelming or unambitious. Being Hel's lackeys, scheming to bring gods down for a visit or only targeting three gods is both.

I didn't say their plan was underwhelming or unambitious. I'm saying they may have deliberately obfuscated the nature of their plan, that perhaps the Godsmoot was a necessary element of their plan, but not the whole plan.

See, the whole point of a fiend saying "Technically true, I guess," is that the bare reading — the IFCC has a secret scheme to take down the gods of Good — is not strictly complete and correct. So I'm suggesting ways in which that reading is not strictly complete and correct.

[Fyraltari]

120 damage negated.

If cumulative lightning strikes did 121 damage to Blackwing while Vaarsuvius didn't renew the Protection from Electricity, he'd take one damage, but anything less than 121 would be entirely nullified--there's no minimum damage per strike that automatically gets through.

Are ther any stats for "natural" lightning bolts?

See, the whole point of a fiend saying "Technically true, I guess," is that the bare reading — the IFCC has a secret scheme to take down the gods of Good — is not strictly complete and correct. So I'm suggesting ways in which that reading is not strictly complete and correct.

The bare reading being "we intentionally sacrificed those dragons as part of our larger plan." as opposed to "we didn't know that was going to happen but it was a side-effect of our plan." ?

[zimmerwald1915]

Blackwing doesn't have anything to sacrifice though.

When given the chance to sacrifice life, limb, or property, Blackwing almost always demurs. This isn't behavior that is easily denounced, but it isn't particularly Good either.

If your standerd for Good is "willing to get themselves killed to protect someone who (at the time) uses, neglects and belittle you" I am afraid we are doomed to disagree.

My standard is irrelevant. D&D 3.5's standard is "makes personal sacrifices to help others." Bugging out magically - an action which Vaarsuvius herself would later repeat - does not comport with that. And Good doesn't particularly care if the others are scum. Good does good unto others unless the others are a threat.

Huh no? He got that gnome to makeit into a ring so that he can both wear it and give V the bonus. Making sacrifices that can be avoided to get the same outcome is not good it's stupid.

No, he went along with that option once the gnome raised it as a possible compromise, like a reasonable, if selfish person. When there was a binary choice before him, however, Blackwing chose not to make a personal sacrifice to help others.

You'll note that h was willing to take the phylactyery and paint a big Lich-target to his back (and get blown up assuming V told him about the Explosive Runes).

I had forgotten about that. Still, Neutral people are capable of Good acts (as indeed are Evil people), and this is one act among many.

Really? I thought that those spells only diminished damage not outright cancelled it.

Energy resistance shaves a bit of damage off the top. Protection from energy, as stated, blocks all damage up to a certain amount.

Pretty sure the swirly line above his head indicates that he did blow himself up.

In fact he did blow himself up. Doesn't mean he wasn't relying on evasion. It can fail from time to time - it certainly does for Belkar.

That said, he does affect - and emote, if Vaarsuvius is to be believed - a certain fatalism. So maybe he really didn't think he had an out. In which case, another Good act. That's two.

[zimmerwald1915]

Are ther any stats for "natural" lightning bolts?

Closest would probably be the call lightning spell, which does 3d6 (average 10) damage per bolt.

[rferries]

Closest would probably be the call lightning spell, which does 3d6 (average 10) damage per bolt.

Thunderbolts deal 1d10 x 1d8 damage (average 25 damage).

[Fyraltari]

When given the chance to sacrifice life, limb, or property, Blackwing almost always demurs. This isn't behavior that is easily denounced, but it isn't particularly Good either.

So Neutral?

My standard is irrelevant. D&D 3.5's standard is "makes personal sacrifices to help others." Bugging out magically - an action which Vaarsuvius herself would later repeat - does not comport with that. And Good doesn't particularly care if the others are scum. Good does good unto others unless the others are a threat.

But I suspect it does consider "refusing to get killed to save scum" as Neutral, not Evil right?

No, he went along with that option once the gnome raised it as a possible compromise, like a reasonable, if selfish person. When there was a binary choice before him, however, Blackwing chose not to make a personal sacrifice to help others.

"I'm pretty sure I mentionned it was mine" could be read as "No way I'm giving this up" as easily as "Are you sure there is no way I could keep it while it helps?".

Energy resistance shaves a bit of damage off the top. Protection from energy, as stated, blocks all damage up to a certain amount.

Thanks for clearing that up.

In fact he did blow himself up. Doesn't mean he wasn't relying on evasion. It can fail from time to time - it certainly does for Belkar.

It would be pretty stupid for him not to try to evade the blast if he could, though. What good would come of that?

I had forgotten about that. Still, Neutral people are capable of Good acts (as indeed are Evil people), and this is one act among many.

That said, he does affect - and emote, if Vaarsuvius is to be believed - a certain fatalism. So maybe he really didn't think he had an out. In which case, another Good act. That's two.

So two good acts (three if you count trying to get V to be better, which I have a hunch you don't) Against one/zero (depending on whever you count the possiblity of him refusing to cede the bauble in the hypothetical case it was a binary choice) evil and a few neutrals. Could be goodish neutral, could be neutralish good.

Closest would probably be the call lightning spell, which does 3d6 (average 10) damage per bolt.

Well, that's underwhelming.

[zimmerwald1915]

So Neutral?


But I suspect it does consider "refusing to get killed to save scum" as Neutral, not Evil right?

Yes to both. And it is in fact my position that Blackwing is Neutral. Funny that.

[Kish]

Well, that's underwhelming.

Most people are really, really breakable compared to D&D adventurers. That real-world person who was in the newspaper for surviving a lightning strike, translated into D&D, is probably somewhere between a first-level commoner (1d4 hit points before Constitution modifier) and a fifth-level expert (5d6 hit points before 5x Constitution modifier).