Spheres of Power: Archetypes of Power Open Beta

[A.J.Gibson]

I'll agree for prepared it isn't that much value being added on, i'm just pointing out things like witch get bonus spells because the sphere witch replaces the patron spells class feature for talents in a specific school every odd level; even though the base class feature is just adding spells to the spell list of a prepared caster.
The logic was clearly to give it the 30 talents from class/caster levels (+2 an additional 2 at base) as many high casters in the system get roughly that many to be competitive with incanter, so i see the baseline there, but it does mean they gained alot of free talents for something that isn't valued very high as a class ability. Druid/Cleric follow similar logic of trading bonus spells from their domains for spells in specific spheres.

For spontaneous its not magic talents it seems to be spell points. Sphere sorcerer loses those bloodline spells for 1 extra spell point per level, sphere oracle loses mystery spells to get a spell point every even level (also gain bonus talents at 4 specific levels but only if they chose one that solely gave spells for a curse).

As a creator of several archetypes, I can tell you that the 'this replaces...' line is really just there to tell you what you're losing; abilities are not always exchanged one to one.

And to further illustrate your point, sphere witches get 10 talents for their patron spells, while clerics only get 5 talent for their domain spells.

Spontaneous casters are built the same way as prepared casters, but instead of additional talents above 20, they buy the 'extra spell points' feat a bunch of times, in order to preserve the feel of the class (more slots, less spells). I personally prefer to give extra talents instead (see the Ascendant Mind).

Are there any specific archetypes that are popular that don't translate to SoP well (other than for the magus)? Because if it's just 2 or 3 I can just translate them directly like I did for Crossblooded Sorcerer instead of trying to come up with a rule set.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Are there any specific archetypes that are popular that don't translate to SoP well (other than for the magus)? Because if it's just 2 or 3 I can just translate them directly like I did for Crossblooded Sorcerer instead of trying to come up with a rule set.

Here are the ones that come to mind in no particular order (I may be wrong on how popular some of these are):
Sacred Servant Paladin
Dual-Cursed Oracle
Spirit Guide Oracle
Synthesist Summoner (though there's an argument that the Alter-Ego Vigilante does a lot of the same thing anyways so maybe this isn't necessary)
Crossblooded Rager Bloodrager (maybe just alter the existing archetype you have to allow for crossblooding?)

[Scowling Dragon]

Yo I hope Im not too late but Im working on a Archetype for the Medium, based more on the Thaumaturge maybe once I have it done I could show it off?

[A.J.Gibson]

Here are the ones that come to mind in no particular order (I may be wrong on how popular some of these are):
Sacred Servant Paladin
Dual-Cursed Oracle
Spirit Guide Oracle
Synthesist Summoner (though there's an argument that the Alter-Ego Vigilante does a lot of the same thing anyways so maybe this isn't necessary)
Crossblooded Rager Bloodrager (maybe just alter the existing archetype you have to allow for crossblooding?)

Does sacred servant even need translating? Dual cursed cursed is also just 'more revelations'. Spirit guide is just shaman. Crossblooded may be squeeze-able.

[A.J.Gibson]

Yo I hope Im not too late but Im working on a Archetype for the Medium, based more on the Thaumaturge maybe once I have it done I could show it off?

Well the book is kinda for me to write in :) I'll definitely look, though.

[Scowling Dragon]

Well the book is kinda for me to write in :) I'll definitely look, though.

I dunno stick it somewhere later in some other book (Maybe Death). Whos writing death and how can I contact them?
I would be thrilled, if my idea was good enough though.

The idea is that its a combination of Theurge and Troubadour.
The problem with the medium is that instead of playing a Jack of all Trades character, your playing a character that's going to truly SUCK at everything it does.

Which may go true for some other arguable jacks of all trades (The Bard, for instance, some people find just bleh at everything), but the medium Truly embodies.
Id say that you can have your level 20 ability, and be possessed by all spirits at once and be just about en-par with what a Regular jack of all trades class gets already.

The investigator for instance: Gets a Sneak attack type deal, Medium Spell Progression, a bunch of selectable abilities, and a limited resource pool he can use for bonuses.

The Medium, possesses low spell progression and the OPTION to raise it to medium. Posseses a limited resource mechanic thats tied into everything he does and its a very limited mechanic. Like maximum 5 a day period otherwise you loose control. And if you even start using it you start taking penalties unless you start binding yourself.
Instead of a selectable array of talents they get a few spells they can use a day. Maybe a bit earlier then other classes but not by much. And so he has the option of getting a whole bunch of extra spirits that also at the best of times bring him slightly below par an investigator.

The Troubadour is the Medium done right. And with a bit of re-fluffing can just BE a Medium class.

However I decided to do something special with the medium instead.
Make it like the thaumaturge. In that you can risk for more power.

The idea is that as your possessed by a spirit the power level is slightly lower then that of a Troubador, however if you risk it for more power, you can exceed them for short bursts of time.

[Arcueid]

As a creator of several archetypes, I can tell you that the 'this replaces...' line is really just there to tell you what you're losing; abilities are not always exchanged one to one.

To be fair, sphere witch doesn't really trade anything else. Patron is the only unique class feature swapped. Everything else is just the standard spellcasting swap.

And to further illustrate your point, sphere witches get 10 talents for their patron spells, while clerics only get 5 talent for their domain spells.

Looking these over it seems most follow the standard i brought up, its just Cleric and Druid that seem to lose out. So those conversions seem to be in the minority of how they're handled, but it seems maybe its because they're 3/4 BAB is why thats the way it is though.

Cleric seems all wrong in terms of conversion to be honest. 10 talents gained on even levels that they get choice on, 10 talents on odd level in life or death spheres, 5 talents in specific sphere of domain. So they're 5 behind other full casters in talents.
Druid gets 20 talents, but then gets 5 from domain like cleric, and then 3 talents for alteration sphere to replace wild shape.
An interesting side point but these classes seem to lose alot in the spheres conversion as they don't keep up in talents like normal full casters, and their utility is strongly dependent on how the GM runs casting traditions, as before they could wear armor/shields/ect.. and not care; in spheres depending on how casting traditions are run that advantage goes out the window.

Are there any specific archetypes that are popular that don't translate to SoP well (other than for the magus)? Because if it's just 2 or 3 I can just translate them directly like I did for Crossblooded Sorcerer instead of trying to come up with a rule set.

For full casters two popular ones i can think of.
Witch - Bonded Witch(Half-Elf only archetype) - adds wizard bonded weapon to a witch instead of the familiar basically, but it grants spells based on what type of bonded item you use.
Oracle - Spirit guide - probably the best archetype for next to dual-cursed as it allows for variable spells depending on what spirit is used that day.
Wizard - Spellslinger - i see this is actually an incanter specialization in gear of power as well.

There's some niche concept ones that are cool and i like but its not guaranteed people would agree; but those are the popular ones i can think of that either have spellcasting changes or don't mix with what the sphere archetypes are trading.

[A.J.Gibson]

I dunno stick it somewhere later in some other book (Maybe Death). Whos writing death and how can I contact them?
I would be thrilled, if my idea was good enough though.

The idea is that its a combination of Theurge and Troubadour.
The problem with the medium is that instead of playing a Jack of all Trades character, your playing a character that's going to truly SUCK at everything it does.

Which may go true for some other arguable jacks of all trades (The Bard, for instance, some people find just bleh at everything), but the medium Truly embodies.
Id say that you can have your level 20 ability, and be possessed by all spirits at once and be just about en-par with what a Regular jack of all trades class gets already.

The investigator for instance: Gets a Sneak attack type deal, Medium Spell Progression, a bunch of selectable abilities, and a limited resource pool he can use for bonuses.

The Medium, possesses low spell progression and the OPTION to raise it to medium. Posseses a limited resource mechanic thats tied into everything he does and its a very limited mechanic. Like maximum 5 a day period otherwise you loose control. And if you even start using it you start taking penalties unless you start binding yourself.
Instead of a selectable array of talents they get a few spells they can use a day. Maybe a bit earlier then other classes but not by much. And so he has the option of getting a whole bunch of extra spirits that also at the best of times bring him slightly below par an investigator.

The Troubadour is the Medium done right. And with a bit of re-fluffing can just BE a Medium class.

However I decided to do something special with the medium instead.
Make it like the thaumaturge. In that you can risk for more power.

The idea is that as your possessed by a spirit the power level is slightly lower then that of a Troubador, however if you risk it for more power, you can exceed them for short bursts of time.

The Death handbook is being written by Luke Williams, but before you do anything, you should figure out your archetype. As you said, the Troubadour does the Medium right, so I'm curious why you're making this. Or rather, why you're making this a Medium.

To be fair, sphere witch doesn't really trade anything else. Patron is the only unique class feature swapped. Everything else is just the standard spellcasting swap.

Looking these over it seems most follow the standard i brought up, its just Cleric and Druid that seem to lose out. So those conversions seem to be in the minority of how they're handled, but it seems maybe its because they're 3/4 BAB is why thats the way it is though.

Cleric seems all wrong in terms of conversion to be honest. 10 talents gained on even levels that they get choice on, 10 talents on odd level in life or death spheres, 5 talents in specific sphere of domain. So they're 5 behind other full casters in talents.
Druid gets 20 talents, but then gets 5 from domain like cleric, and then 3 talents for alteration sphere to replace wild shape.
An interesting side point but these classes seem to lose alot in the spheres conversion as they don't keep up in talents like normal full casters, and their utility is strongly dependent on how the GM runs casting traditions, as before they could wear armor/shields/ect.. and not care; in spheres depending on how casting traditions are run that advantage goes out the window.

For full casters two popular ones i can think of.
Witch - Bonded Witch(Half-Elf only archetype) - adds wizard bonded weapon to a witch instead of the familiar basically, but it grants spells based on what type of bonded item you use.
Oracle - Spirit guide - probably the best archetype for next to dual-cursed as it allows for variable spells depending on what spirit is used that day.
Wizard - Spellslinger - i see this is actually an incanter specialization in gear of power as well.

There's some niche concept ones that are cool and i like but its not guaranteed people would agree; but those are the popular ones i can think of that either have spellcasting changes or don't mix with what the sphere archetypes are trading.

Let's play the incanter-as-base game again. Imagine a class with proficiency with all simple weapons and no armor, poor BAB, good Will saves, d6 hit points, 2 skill points per level, and full CL with 1 talent per level. What does each sphere class get on top of this?

Incanter:
-11 bonus feats
-10 addition talents (worth 10 feats)
Total: 21

Sphere Cleric:
-d8 hit points (worth 1 feat)
-light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields) (worth 3 feats)
-weapon of their deity (worth 1 feat)
-Channel Energy (worth 5 feats)
-good Fortitude (worth 2 feats)
-Medium BAB (worth 5 feats)
-5 talents from their domain (worth 5 feats)
-2 domains with 2 powers each (worth 4 feats)
Total: 26
Note that not being able to choose what sphere a talent is from doesn't actually decrease the value of the ability.

Sphere Druid:
-d8 hit points (worth 1 feat)
-Limited Weapons list (worth -1 feat)
-light and medium armor and shields (worth 3 feats)
-no metal armor (worth -1 feat)
-2 additional skill points per level (worth 2 feats)
-nature sense (worth .5 feat)
-wild empathy (worth .5 feat)
-woodland stride (worth .5 feat)
-trackless step (worth .5 feat)
-resist nature's lure (worth .5 feat)
-venom immunity (worth 1 feat)
-a thousand faces (worth .5 feat)
-timeless body (worth nothing)
-good Fortitude (worth 2 feats)
-Medium BAB (worth 5 feats)
-Nature Bond (worth 5 feats)
-Wild Heart (worth 4 feats)
Total: 24
You could make arguments about a value of a few of the smaller things because of how campaign specific they are.

So the cleric comes out ahead, but have much less choice in their feats (10 Life or Death, + 5 related to their Domains), and a slightly inferior skill list compared to Incanter (at first glance). The other sphere conversions are also close to 21 or so.

For existing archetypes, the popular ones all seems to be the ones that 'fix' the class or grant it spells, so converting them to spheres is kinda pointless. The ones that make a class like another class are also suspect, since there are less differences between the classes now. If you want a spirit guide, just play a shaman, for example.

[AlienFromBeyond]

Does sacred servant even need translating? Dual cursed cursed is also just 'more revelations'. Spirit guide is just shaman. Crossblooded may be squeeze-able.

Sacred Servant gets a domain, spell slots for that domain, and the spells that go with the domain, as well as altering the Spells class feature. Theoretically doesn't need a converted archetype if your GM is okay with cross-referencing what Sphere Cleric does for its domains, but it's not automatically okay.

Dual-Cursed Oracle has stuff that alters its mystery bonus spells so in the same boat as Sacred Servant. I figured given the example of Cross-blooded Sorcerer you were looking for popular archetypes that only require a tweak or two to take them from technically need GM intervention/okay to 100% okay like these.

Spirit Guide isn't just Shaman, since it still has the Oracle baggage like Oracle curse, mysteries (there is a much longer list of these than spirits), and revelations. As above, it's mostly compatible except for one quibble that prevents it from being so, "At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit’s spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only of spell levels she can cast."

That's at least the reasoning I used for my initial post anyways. I don't really play any of these classes in particular so don't put too much weight on what I brought up, this is all secondhand in terms of popularity that I know of. If I'm off base on what type of archetypes you were looking for that's fine, I'm happy enough with the book as it is!

[Scowling Dragon]

The Death handbook is being written by Luke Williams, but before you do anything, you should figure out your archetype. As you said, the Troubadour does the Medium right, so I'm curious why you're making this. Or rather, why you're making this a Medium.

Good point. Probably works better just as an Archetype for the Medium.

[A.J.Gibson]

Sacred Servant gets a domain, spell slots for that domain, and the spells that go with the domain, as well as altering the Spells class feature. Theoretically doesn't need a converted archetype if your GM is okay with cross-referencing what Sphere Cleric does for its domains, but it's not automatically okay.

Dual-Cursed Oracle has stuff that alters its mystery bonus spells so in the same boat as Sacred Servant. I figured given the example of Cross-blooded Sorcerer you were looking for popular archetypes that only require a tweak or two to take them from technically need GM intervention/okay to 100% okay like these.

Spirit Guide isn't just Shaman, since it still has the Oracle baggage like Oracle curse, mysteries (there is a much longer list of these than spirits), and revelations. As above, it's mostly compatible except for one quibble that prevents it from being so, "At 4th level, she adds the bonded spirit’s spirit magic spells to her oracle spells known for that day, but only of spell levels she can cast."

That's at least the reasoning I used for my initial post anyways. I don't really play any of these classes in particular so don't put too much weight on what I brought up, this is all secondhand in terms of popularity that I know of. If I'm off base on what type of archetypes you were looking for that's fine, I'm happy enough with the book as it is!

So I took a crack at writing a few guidelines in for archetype compatibility. I think they should cover a lot of the cases presented, since most of them just fiddle with spell lists. Are there are any archetypes that are still incompatible (other than magus stuff)?

Also, i still need an idea for an Oracle archetype. I could do a dual-mystery oracle, dropping talents gained to thaumaturge progression, but I'd rather have something unique. I thought it might be neat to do an oracle-bard of some sort.

[ChrisAsmadi]

So I took a crack at writing a few guidelines in for archetype compatibility. I think they should cover a lot of the cases presented, since most of them just fiddle with spell lists. Are there are any archetypes that are still incompatible (other than magus stuff)?

Include a guideline as to how to handle Cantrips (or lack thereof, if it's an archetype that removes them), perhaps?

As for Oracles, maybe an archetype that trades out the mystery for a Hedgewitch tradition?

[A.J.Gibson]

Include a guideline as to how to handle Cantrips (or lack thereof, if it's an archetype that removes them), perhaps?

As for Oracles, maybe an archetype that trades out the mystery for a Hedgewitch tradition?

I'd really love to redo cantrips in SoP: give each sphere 1 to 3 cantrips which anyone who has the base talent has, while the cantrip feat would give you access to all cantrips (of maybe let you pick a buch of them from different spheres). But that's for another book.

Giving the oracle a hedgewitch tradition is an interesting idea, but I'd rather give the oracle things more specific to the oracle then give it another class' features. More revelations, for example.

[ICN]

Couple archetype ideas:

Was building a prodigy recently and thought that the whole sequence ability was actually a pretty nice fit for a musical sort of theme. A bard archetype that gets the sequence ability, but generally bent more towards buffing, would be a pretty neat archetype I think. Start a song/sequence, build it note by note to the finale/finisher. Maybe rather than imbued sequences, have bonus types based on perform skill used instead.

Other idea is a vigilante that specializes in impersonating others. Rather than a concrete social identity, they instead count as being in their social identity while impersonating someone else. Could see two separate approaches, one being increasingly perfected duplication ability, starting with the shifting disguise feat, up to the point where they could impersonate anything of any species. The other would be a mind sphere approach, more focused on ripping the information needed for a good disguise (name of childhood friends, secret codeword a group established in case of a shapeshifter) from the mind of their target, and smoothing over bumps and flaws by making people not notice them instead.

Also, not entirely sure this was seen earlier, so bumping it just to be sure.

On the Blended Training thing, would it work to make it an option, like Martial Traditions are? e.g. If your class is not a high-caster and does not possess the Combat Training class feature, you may trade the Magic Talents feature for the Blended Training feature, gaining talents at the same rate as the class would've gained magic talents.

Edit: On an Oracle archetype, I might play into the curse class feature. Give them an ability to augment their spells but take a personal penalty while doing so, possibly themed around their curse.

[A.J.Gibson]

Couple archetype ideas:

Was building a prodigy recently and thought that the whole sequence ability was actually a pretty nice fit for a musical sort of theme. A bard archetype that gets the sequence ability, but generally bent more towards buffing, would be a pretty neat archetype I think. Start a song/sequence, build it note by note to the finale/finisher. Maybe rather than imbued sequences, have bonus types based on perform skill used instead.

Other idea is a vigilante that specializes in impersonating others. Rather than a concrete social identity, they instead count as being in their social identity while impersonating someone else. Could see two separate approaches, one being increasingly perfected duplication ability, starting with the shifting disguise feat, up to the point where they could impersonate anything of any species. The other would be a mind sphere approach, more focused on ripping the information needed for a good disguise (name of childhood friends, secret codeword a group established in case of a shapeshifter) from the mind of their target, and smoothing over bumps and flaws by making people not notice them instead.

Also, not entirely sure this was seen earlier, so bumping it just to be sure.


Edit: On an Oracle archetype, I might play into the curse class feature. Give them an ability to augment their spells but take a personal penalty while doing so, possibly themed around their curse.

The 'building up to a finale' thing the prodigy does (and also the monk in 13th age) is kinda neat. A disguise focused vigilante might be an interesting talent, but I don't think a full archetype is required. The spell augmentation thing is something I'm still looking at for the oracle, but it's tricky to write, and I already kinda did that with the withering witch.

Also: new fighter archetype, everyone.

[Mithril Leaf]

Hey so those Runesinger feats, can they only be taken by the Runesinger? Or can anyone pick up a couple of runes with the Extra Rune feat? Also can you pick up multiple copies of each rune, or is it only one per type?

[A.J.Gibson]

Hey so those Runesinger feats, can they only be taken by the Runesinger? Or can anyone pick up a couple of runes with the Extra Rune feat? Also can you pick up multiple copies of each rune, or is it only one per type?

You have to have the ability runesingers get at first. You could dip rune singer to get 4 runes, but the damage scales with class level.

[A.J.Gibson]

Two things: first, I'm still looking for ideas for druid, oracle, and hunter archetypes. For druid, I'm thinking about dropping talents to one every even level (like thaumaturge), restoring wildshape (since every other archetype uses it), and then granting some powers to make you wildshaped self and animal companion more effective, like built in enhancement bonuses for natural weapons.

Second, I'd like to discuss the way the runesinger is costed compared to the coiled blade. When I write archetypes, I cost things in terms of feats. If something is worth a feat, then its worth a feat, even if no one in their right mind would spend a feat on it (hello, Endurance). Its not perfect, but realistically, power balance tends to be campaign specific anyways (my class campaign was Iron Gods, where Knowledge (Engineering) was a god skill!), and the value of a lot of things decreases when you get more of them.

For fun, let's turn the gunslinger into an archetype of the fighter:

Gunslinger (Fighter Archetype)

Skills
The gunslinger adds Acrobatics (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (local) (Int), Perception (Wis), and Sleight of Hand (Dex) to his skill list, and removes Knowledge (dungeoneering) (Int) from his skill list.
The gunslinger gains 4 skill points per level instead of 2.
This modifies skills.

Proficiencies
The gunslinger loses proficiency with medium and heavy armor, shields and tower shields. He gains proficiency with all firearms.
This modifies proficiencies.

Saving Throws
The gunslinger gains good Reflex saving throws.
This modifies saving throws.

Grit and Deeds
...
This replaces the combat feat gained at first level, armor training, and armor mastery.

Nimble
...
This replaces the combat feats gained at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, and 18th level.

Gunsmithing
...
This replaces bravery, I guess.

Gun Training
...
This replaces weapon training and weapon mastery.

True Grit
...
Why don't fighters get a capstone?


So the gunslinger seems to come out ahead, which is why we don't worry about being generous too the fighter.

In SoM, combat talents are worth half a feat when you buy them in bulk, and several crappy combat feats are available as combat talents. This was part of an active attempt to make martials more fun, by making it easier to play the character you actually want to play. (At least, I think it was). Martial Traditions are considered equal in value to proficiency with all martial weapons, or about 2 feats. So the Coiled Blade comes out looking like this:

Coiled Blade
-exchange martial weapons for tradition
-exchange proficiency with medium and heavy armor for a second tradition
-exchange armor training and armor mastery for tension
-exchange shield proficiency, tower shield proficiency, and 6 combat feats for 20 combat talents

So if you assume armor training and tension are equal, then the CB comes out ahead about 2 feats.
Now the runesinger

Runesinger
-exchange martial weapons for tradition
-exchange proficiency with medium for 2 runes (each is worth a combat talent)
-exchange heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, tower shield proficiency, armor training and armor mastery for 20 combat talents
If you assume a rune is equal to combat talent, and armor training/mastery is worth 5 feats (1 per level), RS comes out ahead 2 feats.

So I'm comfortable as is, and this set up allows compatibility with the War Hero and Impossible Warrior archetypes I wrote, and a few PF fighter archetypes as well (but not many, since everything seems to trade out armor training: Armiger, Blackjack, Drill Sergeant, Eldritch Guardian, High Guardian, Martial Master, Opportunist Fighter, Savage Warrior, Siegebreaker, and Tower Shield Specialist). I wanted to see if people agree with my math, and also if they think anything else should be added (like good Will saves or more skill points per level).

[Archiplex]

Coiled Blade
-exchange martial weapons for tradition
-exchange proficiency with medium and heavy armor for a second tradition

Runesinger
-exchange martial weapons for tradition
-exchange proficiency with medium for 2 runes (each is worth a combat talent)

Coiled Blade no longer grants a second martial tradition; Thus, a Coiled blade effectively trades their weapon and armor proficiencies for a martial tradition; Which is very similar to what most other archetyped SoM classes do.

[Sam C.]

Coiled Blade no longer grants a second martial tradition; Thus, a Coiled blade effectively trades their weapon and armor proficiencies for a martial tradition; Which is very similar to what most other archetyped SoM classes do.

The Coiled Blade gets a martial tradition on top of their normal proficiencies, provided they don't already have one.

[A.J.Gibson]

Serves me right for trying to work from memory. Let's try this again:

Coiled Blade
-exchange armor training for tension
-exchange 6 combat feats for 20 combat talents and a martial tradition

So if you assume armor training and tension are equal, then the CB comes out ahead about 6 feats.
Now the runesinger

Runesinger
-exchange martial weapons for tradition
-exchange proficiency with medium for 2 runes (each is worth a combat talent)
-exchange heavy armor proficiency, shield proficiency, tower shield proficiency, armor training and armor mastery for 20 combat talents
If you assume a rune is equal to combat talent, and armor training/mastery is worth 5 feats (1 per level), RS comes out ahead 2 feats.

[Scowling Dragon]

Two things: first, I'm still looking for ideas for druid, oracle, and hunter archetypes. For druid, I'm thinking about dropping talents to one every even level (like thaumaturge), restoring wildshape (since every other archetype uses it), and then granting some powers to make you wildshaped self and animal companion more effective, like built in enhancement bonuses for natural weapons.

Buh...Crib from the Shifter?
Every other level get a Shifter thing?

[A.J.Gibson]

Buh...Crib from the Shifter?
Every other level get a Shifter thing?

Well, I don't want to steal it's primary schtick (Alteration sphere and Bestial Traits) and the druid should remain a caster (if you want to play a shifter, play a shifter!). I'm thinking if they had some neat ways of altering those spheres you would associate with nature magic. Like maybe their nature magic just sustains itself naturally, their alteration magic interacts with wildshape, and mind magic does fey thing that screws with people's minds. The real problem is that the whole nature caster has been beat to death by the druid, ranger, hunter, shifter, and crappier shifter.

[Ironsides]

Well, you could make a druid that focuses on the Weather Sphere. I haven’t seen much for that sphere and it deserves some love in my opinion. Maybe some way of reducing the time it takes for the Weather Sphere to ramp up into something useful.

[AlienFromBeyond]

If you assume a rune is equal to combat talent, and armor training/mastery is worth 5 feats (1 per level), RS comes out ahead 2 feats.

That's a really big assumption to make, I think a rune is far better than a combat talent. I consider them worth about two since just the attack or movement part compare favorably with existing combat talents (or even exceed in many cases when it comes to the rune movement abilities). There is an argument for slightly less than two (but definitely still more than one) because you can only use one or the other, except you can feat to fix that, feat to recharge your build defining rune, and can always recharge a rune using your martial focus.

[A.J.Gibson]

Well, you could make a druid that focuses on the Weather Sphere. I haven’t seen much for that sphere and it deserves some love in my opinion. Maybe some way of reducing the time it takes for the Weather Sphere to ramp up into something useful.

Jeff Collins is writing the Weather handbook, and he'll probably do something like that there.

That's a really big assumption to make, I think a rune is far better than a combat talent. I consider them worth about two since just the attack or movement part compare favorably with existing combat talents (or even exceed in many cases when it comes to the rune movement abilities). There is an argument for slightly less than two (but definitely still more than one) because you can only use one or the other, except you can feat to fix that, feat to recharge your build defining rune, and can always recharge a rune using your martial focus.

Yes, but those all require other feats (except recharging with Martial Focus). A rune as an at-will costs a feat, but being able to only use it once per combat is a fairly serious limitation. I've considered making recharge with martial focus a separate feat as well.

[Archiplex]

A rune as an at-will costs a feat, but being able to only use it once per combat is a fairly serious limitation.

I'm not so sure about that. Typical pathfinder encounters really don't last all that long, and although you lowered the initial runecount to 2, I still feel like that's more than sufficient to maintain. The player surely won't be using a rune every turn (Until they get the feat... anyways), and even if they did, 4-5 runes should be enough to last you the typical encounter length, with room to squish that depending on how the player's focus recovery looks like (Lets be real, some of the methods to recover focuses are very easy, and some in particular can be used while ALSO using a rune to move, like Mobile Focus from Barrage). Even compared to some Legendary Talents, the sheer benefit from each rune (Remember, Variability is power, too.) definitely beats out most combat talents. They are very easily on the level of Magical talents.


Also, on the topic of other handbooks... Is the Warp sphere handbook being worked on currently?

[AlienFromBeyond]

being able to only use it once per combat is a fairly serious limitation.

Let's be real, they're as "once per combat" as say Berserker's Brutal Strike. Technically yes, but martial focus is trivial to recover as has been pointed out.

[A.J.Gibson]

I'm not so sure about that. Typical pathfinder encounters really don't last all that long, and although you lowered the initial runecount to 2, I still feel like that's more than sufficient to maintain. The player surely won't be using a rune every turn (Until they get the feat... anyways), and even if they did, 4-5 runes should be enough to last you the typical encounter length, with room to squish that depending on how the player's focus recovery looks like (Lets be real, some of the methods to recover focuses are very easy, and some in particular can be used while ALSO using a rune to move, like Mobile Focus from Barrage). Even compared to some Legendary Talents, the sheer benefit from each rune (Remember, Variability is power, too.) definitely beats out most combat talents. They are very easily on the level of Magical talents.


Also, on the topic of other handbooks... Is the Warp sphere handbook being worked on currently?

I figure that the runesinger will probably use a rune to attack every turn, and a rune to move every other turn.

Amber Underwood has been working on Warp for some time now...she hasn't shown the group her work, but I expect it'll be good.

Let's be real, they're as "once per combat" as say Berserker's Brutal Strike. Technically yes, but martial focus is trivial to recover as has been pointed out.

Both of you commented that martial focus makes it easy to reuse a rune, which makes me think maybe I shouldn't allow it (maybe make it a high level feat). The class is supposed to be doing different things all the time, and I don't like making spamming the optimal course of action. If I remove this option, I take it runes will still be worth 1 feat/2 talents?

[Archiplex]

Both of you commented that martial focus makes it easy to reuse a rune, which makes me think maybe I shouldn't allow it (maybe make it a high level feat). The class is supposed to be doing different things all the time, and I don't like making spamming the optimal course of action. If I remove this option, I take it runes will still be worth 1 feat/2 talents?

I think that removing the possibility overall would definitely reel in the power of the archetype; I was discussing with a friend that I might agree with you overall if selecting a rune ONLY gave either the movement or attack ability (and thus would require 2 runes to get both), but otherwise right now Runes are definitely undervalued.

I think that removing the ability to gain regain rune usage (via any method whatsoever) would definitely reel in the potential power of the class and stick better to the '1/encounter' theme- With any possibility to use them multiple times per encounter, people will spam the optimal rune, it's just too good to pass up. I still, however, don't feel like it lowers the power cost of any rune to below 1 feat, so yes- it would still be worth 2 talents or 1 feat per rune.