Is Order of the Stick a fanfic or an Original Work?

[Lacuna Caster]

This is a good point. Satire and Parody are not fan-fiction, even when they appropriate other's work. Because they are doing so for the sole purpose of parody and satire (read: criticism (another word that will no doubt be read with negative connotations) which are not integral to the word itself) and not to tell a story (though that might be a side-effect) I should've been clear about that.

Your own mileage may vary, but I would disagree with the idea that parody can't be used to tell a story.

[Gnoman]

Your own mileage may vary, but I would disagree with the idea that parody can't be used to tell a story.

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is not a parody. It is a combination of a cult recruitment tool and philosophical author tract latched on to Harry Potter in order to trick the gullible into reading it. It is also a supremely horrible work in and of itself, even when you adjust for it literally being a Harry Potter Fanfiction Fanfiction (the author never read most of the HP books, considering them too childish).

[Lacuna Caster]

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is not a parody. It is a combination of a cult recruitment tool and philosophical author tract latched on to Harry Potter in order to trick the gullible into reading it.

I'll grant that part of me was thinking "ah, so this is how Voldemort sees the world", so again, mileage may vary. But I don't see how that excludes constructing an independent story whilst being critical of the original work?

[Gnoman]

I'll grant that part of me was thinking "ah, so this is how Voldemort sees the world", so again, mileage may vary. But I don't see how that excludes constructing an independent story whilst being critical of the original work?

The only aspects of the original work "criticized" are those the author made up out of whole cloth. It is literally one of the author's pseudscience rants grafted onto an extremely shallow shell of what the author thinks the HP world looks like. This is before you condsider the blatant racism, misogyny, and bad science.

[Lacuna Caster]

The only aspects of the original work "criticized" are those the author made up out of whole cloth.

I can specifically remember an early chapter where Harry talks about everyone congratulating him for killing Voldemort- "they don't want to shake hands with me. They want to shake hands with a bad explanation-" which seemed like a perfectly fair point, given he was a child at the time and had no control over the situation. (The author also didn't invent the idea that wizards have a virtual monopoly on the world's gold supply, which combined with some fairly straightforward assumptions about exchange rates does lead to some reasonable points about distortion of financial markets.)

We could go on, but you'll need to point out some specific examples of what you object to.

[Fyraltari]

Does it say anything about House Elves?

[martianmister]

And Gandalf's powers come from his divine origins, not from "being trained as a wizard".

Yet he's become the "wizard archetype".

Probably a similar principle applies to D&D rangers - they heal, because Aragorn heals.

I highly doubt that Gandalf is the wizard archetype.

So?

So, it has nothing to do with his being a ranger, and it's not magic.

[Fyraltari]

I highly doubt that Gandalf is the wizard archetype.

Some people disagree with you.
He his a wise, well-traveled old man who is much more than he appears, speak in riddles serves a mentor/advisory role to the hero and has unexplained (and thus convineniently for the author technically unlimited) powers.

He is as much the wizard archetype as Merlin.

So, it has nothing to do with his being a ranger, and it's not magic.

The point (however true it is) being made wasn't that Aragorn had magic because he was a ranger but that ranger had magic because Aragorn had.

And agains I fail to see why his magic coming fromhis royal blood disqualify it from being magic. He is doing stuff real humans can't do ergo he is doing magic.

[Gnoman]

We could go on, but you'll need to point out some specific examples of what you object to.

I'm not going to go back and look for the text (I just got those brain cells back!), but here's the big one. One of the things that makes MOR Harry so super awesome is the way he breaks the established rules of Transfiguration by "thinking rationally!". The problem with that is that the rules he's breaking not only are not in the source material (in other words, the author made them up specifically so his Mary Sue author insert could break them), but contradict scenes from the original books. The sort of partial transfiguration he's crowing about happens in Book 1, as soon as they start being allowed to actually try in class.

More generally, the entire fic revolves around the idea that nobody studies magic systematically, and everything the wizarding world knows is just handed down and degenerated from the original wizards. This is contradicted in the very first book, where Transfiguration class requires extensive notes on magical theory and Dumbledore's chocolate frog card describes his magical and alchemical research accomplishments.

Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality is nothing more than a tool for the author insert protagonist (that "this is how Voldemort sees the world" behavior? The author insists that anybody who doesn't see the world that way is deluded) to convince people to join the author's science cult. It is also incredibly racist and misogynistic, and nearly all of the "science" in it is either misinterpreted or pure bunk.

[Lacuna Caster]

The sort of partial transfiguration he's crowing about happens in Book 1, as soon as they start being allowed to actually try in class.

More generally, the entire fic revolves around the idea that nobody studies magic systematically, and everything the wizarding world knows is just handed down and degenerated from the original wizards. This is contradicted in the very first book, where Transfiguration class requires extensive notes on magical theory and Dumbledore's chocolate frog card describes his magical and alchemical research accomplishments.

I'm afraid it's been a while since I read either, so I'm fuzzy on some of the particulars, but... I think the broad point about Potterverse wizardry being in a general state of either technical decline or stagnation is probably fair. There's an extended list of rare or uniquely powerful magical artifacts created by bygone masters that modern practitioners are either unable or unwilling to replicate- this is the opposite of the pattern you'd associate with scientific progress over time, where the initial prototypes are refined and outmoded in tandem with market saturation and mass production techniques, and government regulation struggles to keep tech off the black market.

There is some ambiguity on this point- things like the flue network, animated newspapers and owl-messaging feel very 'Tippyverse', and it's entirely possible that individual wizards are quite skilled in independent research and development. But as a broad critique of the underpinnings of the setting... well, there's room for that sort of thing.

It is also incredibly racist and misogynistic, and nearly all of the "science" in it is either misinterpreted or pure bunk.

The nearest I can see to racism consists of pointing out the blatantly obvious about the deficiencies of certain non-european cultures? I think conflating that with biological supremacism says more about the people taking offence than it does about the author.

The fridging accusations I can kind of agree with, but... I don't see how this turns the work into 'not a criticism', 'not a fanfic', or 'not a story'. It clearly is those things.

[martianmister]

Some people disagree with you.
He his a wise, well-traveled old man who is much more than he appears, speak in riddles serves a mentor/advisory role to the hero and has unexplained (and thus convineniently for the author technically unlimited) powers.

He is as much the wizard archetype as Merlin.

All these tropes predates him.

The point (however true it is) being made wasn't that Aragorn had magic because he was a ranger but that ranger had magic because Aragorn had.

They're not really similar.

And agains I fail to see why his magic coming fromhis royal blood disqualify it from being magic. He is doing stuff real humans can't do ergo he is doing magic.

Same way miracles of prophets and saints aren't magic. King Edward III from Macbeth can heal people with layin his hands, this doesn't make him a wizard.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I'm afraid it's been a while since I read either, so I'm fuzzy on some of the particulars, but... I think the broad point about Potterverse wizardry being in a general state of either technical decline or stagnation is probably fair. There's an extended list of rare or uniquely powerful magical artifacts created by bygone masters that modern practitioners are either unable or unwilling to replicate- this is the opposite of the pattern you'd associate with scientific progress over time, where the initial prototypes are refined and outmoded in tandem with market saturation and mass production techniques, and government regulation struggles to keep tech off the black market.

What on Earth are you talking about? There is exactly 4 objects in that list that could be said to fall under the category of "created by bygone masters that modern practitioners are either unable or unwilling to replicate": the philosopher's stone, and three hallows, and of those, the elder wand was most definitely studied and partially replicated, as was demonstrated by Gregorovitch. The cloak was kept secret, and thus we can't know if it could be, but there is no actual indication that, if examined, someone couldn't figure it out; and the resurrection stone is actually not the kind of object anyone wants to make more of (other than for creating inferi, if that's your thing). Which leaves the philosopher's stone, which I'll grant you is weird that no-one has re-discovered, but if so falls under the same category as RL Greek Fire.

Everything else in that list is either modern (e.g. the deluminator was invented by Dumbledore, and the marauder's map by Harry's father & co.) or objects that do exist (e.g. the mirror of Erised) and we do not know if there are others of the same type laying around somewhere.

For the other objects? Things like broomsticks and consumer products, we constantly hear of new and improved models coming out year after year. The Nimbus 2000 replaced by the 2001 model. The Weasley twins coming out with new merchandise. Etc.

So yeah, as far as I can see you have no leg to stand on here.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

What on Earth are you talking about? There is exactly 4 objects in that list that could be said to fall under the category of "created by bygone masters that modern practitioners are either unable or unwilling to replicate": the philosopher's stone, and three hallows, and of those, the elder wand was most definitely studied and partially replicated, as was demonstrated by Gregorovitch.

I don't recall that Gregorovitch actually succeeded, unless that's escaping my attention again?

My point here is that the trends associated with technological progress don't seem to apply in the wizarding world. Nobody in the muggle world refers to the Model T with tones of hushed reverence, as a source of great power to be fought over and coveted, rather than a collector's item. Because most of the population already have transport that's orders of magnitude more powerful and versatile. And we're talking about wands here- the tool on which all wizards depend for everything else they do. With all due respect to the Weasleys, Dumbledore, and similar innovators, you just can't compare the Nimbus series or Deluminator with raising the dead or turning back time.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't recall that Gregorovitch actually succeeded, unless that's escaping my attention again?

Succeeded in becoming one of the great wand-makers based on what he learnt from the elder wand? Yes, yes he did. Duplicating the elder wand? Maybe. There is nothing in the books that suggests that the Elder wand is any more powerful than any other well-made wand, other than what the legend says of it. Certainly it doesn't make you invincible, no matter what the legend says, as Grindelwald and Voldemort discovered (and indeed, dozens of wizards before them).

My point here is that the trends associated with technological progress don't seem to apply in the wizarding world. Nobody in the muggle world refers to the Model T with tones of hushed reverence, as a source of great power to be fought over and coveted, rather than a collector's item.

1) Yes, yes they do. Maybe not the model T specifically (although I'm sure there is someone out there that will swear it has never been surpassed), but there is definitely people willing to say that some obsolete object from 50 years ago has qualities that have never been surpassed and that today's X are flimsy pale copies of it.

2) Again, you seem to be talking about some other wizarding world. The number of people talking about these items in hushed reverence are the conspiracy theory guy that publishes the local equivalent of supermarket tabloid and a wandmaker who treats it like a RL instrument maker would talk about getting their hands on a Stradivarius. And indeed, that is the clear inspiration for the Elder wand: the Stradivarius string instruments, and the legend around them. But they are hardly unique.

Because most of the population already have transport that's orders of magnitude more powerful and versatile. And we're talking about wands here- the tool on which all wizards depend for everything else they do. With all due respect to the Weasleys, Dumbledore, and similar innovators, you just can't compare the Nimbus series or Deluminator with raising the dead or turning back time.

Given that no-one can raise the dead or turn back time, again, you really need to read the books again before making these grandiose claims. Now, I'm guessing the latter refers to time turners, which the ministry had a cabinet full of, and gave them away to students on a teacher's recommendation - that hardly seems to indicate these were objects prized above all others. They might be expensive and time consuming to replace, which is why after book 5 there are none available, but you need to present evidence that they are literally irreplaceable, and I doubt you can.

Also, for the record, the time turners don't turn back time. They create a stable time loop, which means you can use them to go through the same period a second time, but they cannot be used to change time.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Again, you seem to be talking about some other wizarding world. The number of people talking about these items in hushed reverence are the conspiracy theory guy that publishes the local equivalent of supermarket tabloid and a wandmaker who treats it like a RL instrument maker would talk about getting their hands on a Stradivarius...

If we lived in a world where everyone depends on their violins for transport, communications, manufacturing and medical care... yes, it would be analogous to that.

I think greek fire is a particularly poor analogue, given that the main mystery is how the greeks pulled it off, not that we don't have napalm, white phosphorous, and a variety of other unpleasant substances that provide similar effects.

Also, for the record, they time turners don't turn back time. They create a stable time loop, which means you can use them to go through the same period a second time, but they cannot be used to change time.

Steroid abuse is rampant in organised sports despite heavy legal sanctions because it allows for rapid recovery and strength gains in a highly competitive profession. You think a device that allowed you to cram in twice the time on sleep, study, meetings or experimentation wouldn't be immediately exploited in business or academia? Or that a device which allowed you to summon the shades of the dead wouldn't be snapped up by law-enforcement for murder investigations? (I'll grant you that how this differs from the ubiquitous magical portraits is kinda fuzzy to me, but there you go.)

Now, look, I'm not saying that JK Rowling is a terrible, terrible writer for not thinking all of this through. I like Harry Potter just fine, by and large. But if Yudkowsky wants to take a particular aspect of the setting and either selectively pick it apart and/or exaggerate for effect, he's not doing anything that satirists haven't been doing for centuries.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If we lived in a world where everyone depends on their violins for transport, communications, manufacturing and medical care... yes, it would be analogous to that.

Again, you have yet to prove your thesis that wand making has not improved on the elder wand. You, like the guy behind MoR are criticising something that is not in the books in the first place. That is what makes it NOT satire, and indeed a very poor fanfic of HP - that it had to build strawmen they could then knock down.

I think greek fire is a particularly poor analogue, given that the main mystery is how the greeks pulled it off, not that we don't have napalm, white phosphorous, and a variety of other unpleasant substances that provide similar effects.

No, it makes it the perfect example. Everything indicates that modern wands can be as good as the elder wand - Harry outright states he prefers his, even after he takes control of the elder wand. The mystery remains of how the elder wand was made, but given its techniques can be studied and duplicated, and by all accounts successfully so, you have no leg to stand on.

Steroid abuse is rampant in organised sports despite heavy legal sanctions because it allows for rapid recovery and strength gains in a highly competitive profession. You think a device that allowed you to cram in twice the time on sleep, study, meetings or experimentation wouldn't be immediately exploited in business or academia?

Yes, I do think so. Which is why the government keeps close tabs on the tool and makes sure it only is used in approved ways. What exactly is this supposed to do with your thesis of supposed stagnation?

Now, look, I'm not saying that JK Rowling is a terrible, terrible writer for not thinking all of this through. I like Harry Potter just fine, by and large. But if Yudkowsky wants to take a particular aspect of the setting and either selectively pick it apart and/or exaggerate for effect, he's not doing anything that satirists haven't been doing for centuries.

Again, the issue here is that this is neither "selectively picked" nor "exaggerated". It is created out of whole cloth. Strawmen with no basis on canon created to criticise said canon in absence of actual valid criticism* (and, of course, it seems, to push the racist, supremacist views of the author).

The closes thing to this is the fact that the wizarding world, due to its isolationism, longevity, low population numbers and even lower population density, lags behind muggle world when it comes to innovation: it takes decades for muggle-borns to bring in ideas from the muggle world into the wizarding world, and even longer for those ideas to be adapted and implemented into the wizarding world at large. But that's not what you or MoR is criticising. Instead, you've made up this idea of stagnation, and you can barely present a single piece of evidence for this, circumstantial at best, and must reject the mounds of evidence to the contrary.

In short, no, the wizarding world of Harry Potter is not stagnated. And creating a "fanfic" that criticizes it for being so is not satire or parody. It is strawmanning.

Grey Wolf

*There is criticism that could and indeed has been leveled at HP. As far as I could tell (I did give up on MoR fairly early on), you won't find any of it in MoR

[Lacuna Caster]

Everything indicates that modern wands can be as good as the elder wand - Harry outright states he prefers his, even after he takes control of the elder wand. The mystery remains of how the elder wand was made, but given its techniques can be studied and duplicated, and by all accounts successfully so...

There's no evidence for that. And there's certainly no indication that cloaks of invisibility or resurrection stones are in wide circulation, despite how useful they'd be. (I'll grant that the elder wand doesn't make the bearer invincible, but that's largely because (A) everyone needs to sleep some time, and (B) it has to attune to it's owner by a particular method. It's not really a mark against it's workmanship.)

Yes, I do think so. Which is why the government keeps close tabs on the tool and makes sure it only is used in approved ways.

You're not hearing me. Our governments have not kept close tabs on the tool and only made sure it is used in approved ways. They have attempted to and failed, despite possessing sophisticated technologies for detection.

And the market incentives to replicate time-turners pale next to incentives to replicate the philosopher's stone, which doesn't just let you live faster, but actually live forever. I can really imagine no more powerful commercial incentive on that front- the fact that stones aren't in wide circulation suggests that replicating the techniques involved is simply beyond the ken of modern wizards.

...and, of course, it seems, to push the racist, supremacist views of the author...

I'm still baffled by where this is coming from. What exactly are you talking about?

[wumpus]

All these tropes predates him.

They're not really similar.

Same way miracles of prophets and saints aren't magic. King Edward III from Macbeth can heal people with layin his hands, this doesn't make him a wizard.

The problem is that you are mixing the definition of "magic" is many ways...

Saints, prophets, and King Ed presumably could "get away" with unnatural things and not fear being burned as a witch. Magic was a crime, but miracles weren't. Presumably this was the difference between arcane and divine magic, but calling it "not magic" is the same as claiming it is insufficiently advanced technology.

Tolkien of all people seems to have a similar view of magic to Arthur C. Clarke, although I'm certain he would call it "craftsmanship" and not "technology". Hobbits saw elven wonders as "magic" and presumably saw Aragon's healing the same way. The elves saw their wonders as "things doing what they were supposed to do" and presumably simply involved craftsmanship beyond mortal kenning. Oddly enough, the few characters everyone agreed could do "magic" were actually Maia and should be expected to be like the Saints, prophets, and Ed (only more powerful).

In practice I suspect that the tropes "deus ex machina" and "a wizard did it" are quite similar. When reality opposes the plot, just bring in somebody to modify reality.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There's no evidence for that. And there's certainly no indication that cloaks of invisibility or resurrection stones are in wide circulation, despite how useful they'd be. (I'll grant that the elder wand doesn't make the bearer invincible, but that's largely because (A) everyone needs to sleep some time, and (B) it has to attune to it's owner by a particular method. It's not really a mark against it's workmanship.)

Moody had two invisibility cloaks. They are in wide enough circulation.

The two people I listed were not asleep when they lost duels with the elder wand. By all accounts, Grindelwald had mastery of it. So too did Dumbledore, for that matter.

Also, the onus for evidence is on you, not me.

You're not hearing me.

Well, that's charming.

Our governments have not kept close tabs on the tool and only made sure it is used in approved ways. They have attempted to and failed, despite possessing sophisticated technologies for detection.

So the wizarding government is more successful at keeping control of this dangerous object amongst a population of a few tens of thousands than the real life government is at keeping track of substance in populations numbering in the millions. But if you have a point, or this in any way relates to the supposed stagnation of the wizarding world, I'm still not seeing it.

And the market incentives to replicate time-turners pale next to incentives to replicate the philosopher's stone, which doesn't just let you live faster, but actually live forever. I can really imagine no more powerful commercial incentive on that front- the fact that stones aren't in wide circulation suggests that replicating the techniques involved is simply beyond the ken of modern wizards.

Or it involves a set of circumstances (such as the alignment of all 8 planets) that only allows for it to happen rarely. This is a world were a plant is most magically efficacious when picked at dusk. Alchemy can be both as reliable as science, and almost impossible to replicate. Given the mounds of improvements seen elsewhere, that is a far more likely explanation.

I'm still baffled by where this is coming from. What exactly are you talking about?

From the links provided above. And my own experience reading the first few chapters.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

Moody had two invisibility cloaks. They are in wide enough circulation.

The two people I listed were not asleep when they lost duels with the elder wand. By all accounts, Grindelwald had mastery of it. So too did Dumbledore, for that matter.

Dumbledore deliberately lost that duel for unrelated reasons, and his ability to beat Grindelwald was explicitly a Big Deal and highly unusual. All invisibility cloaks aside from the first are noted as being inferior knockoffs.

So the wizarding government is more successful at keeping control of this dangerous object amongst a population of a few tens of thousands than the real life government is at keeping track of substance in populations numbering in the millions...

This isn't about keeping track of a handful of dangerous objects. This is about the ostensible ability of the wider wizarding community to manufacture more of them, in a universe where an extensive and magically-potent criminal organisation are the main antagonists. So is the government all-powerful at clamping down on illegal spellcasting, or do Death Eaters exist?

So again, assuming that the tools and expertise haven't declined, why doesn't everyone have a bootleg copy of the philosopher's stone, given the same guy was able to make it successfully for 500 years?

From the links provided above. And my own experience reading the first few chapters.

You're repeating the point without making it any clearer. To repeat, what do the author's comments have to do with racial supremacy?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Dumbledore deliberately lost that duel for unrelated reasons, and his ability to beat Grindelwald was explicitly a Big Deal and highly unusual. All invisibility cloaks aside from the first are noted as being inferior knockoffs.

Super Prototype. Scroll down to Real Life.

This isn't about keeping track of a handful of dangerous objects. This is about the ostensible ability of the wider wizarding community to manufacture more of them, in a universe where an extensive and magically-potent criminal organisation are the main antagonists. So is the government all-powerful at clamping down on illegal spellcasting, or do Death Eaters exist?

I grow very bored of trying to converse with you. You keep changing your point as the previous one is proven to be false. If you wanted to say "why haven't the Death Eaters manufactured their own time turners" you could have said that from the start.

And the answer, as I already said, is because they don't do what you think they do, and they are way more dangerous for the person using them than you pretend they are.

However, I'm done talking to you. Believe whatever you want to believe. My point has been made, and I'm clearly not going to change your mind about the blatant strawmanning, so I'm done wasting my time with you.

So again, assuming that the tools and expertise haven't declined, why doesn't everyone have a bootleg copy of the philosopher's stone, given the same guy was able to make it successfully for 500 years?

No, he made it once. The elixir is a product of the stone, not the stone itself, which was only ever manufactured once, and I've already addressed why that might be that does not require an unfounded stagnation. Your clear disregard or ignorance of even the most basic plot points of the book is noted, and is a main reason for my decision above.

You're repeating the point without making it any clearer. To repeat, what do the author's comments have to do with racial supremacy?

I do not believe that attempting to explain the blatantly obvious to you will be a valuable use of my time.

Grey Wolf

[Heksefatter]

Obviously it is based on D&D and roleplaying games in general, but that doesn't make it fanfic. If I wrote a fiction book based on (for example) Norse mythology, it would obviously be at least SOMEWHAT derivative. But that doesn't make it fan fiction as such. It doesn't even mean that my book wasn't all that original.

In fact, much fiction is inspired by something. Or based on something. That doesn't mean it falls under the heading fan fiction. If I absolutely had to place ONE label on OotS, it would be "affectionate parody." But even that is too narrow, since OotS is more than that. It is a genuinely good story with some ideas which are original.

[Keltest]

Ill take over for Grey Wolf if youre still interested in arguing the point. Its rare that he and I are so completely on the same page, I would hate to squander this.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Ill take over for Grey Wolf if youre still interested in arguing the point. Its rare that he and I are so completely on the same page, I would hate to squander this.

Not that rare. I've generally approved of and faithfully read your ongoing quest of talking some sense into a certain poster, next to whom Lacuna is the very avatar of reasonableness. Your pool of patience is certainly much deeper than mine, so by all means.

Grey Wolf

[Lacuna Caster]

I grow very bored of trying to converse with you. You keep changing your point as the previous one is proven to be false. If you wanted to say "why haven't the Death Eaters manufactured their own time turners" you could have said that from the start.

No, I am not asking why the Death Eaters specifically haven't made their own time turners (though that's a fair question to ask)- I'm asking why an entire society hasn't had a number of enterprising souls either steal or reverse-engineer the secrets to high-level magic and sold, e.g, the elixir of life for a million dollars a dose.

Again, to be perfectly clear, I have nothing against the Harry Potter series, and I am not trying to hold up MoR as a flawless work beyond rebuke or improvement. But you're claiming that MoR is inventing this critique out of whole cloth, when there are absolutely elements of the original books that can be reasonably interpreted this way.

Ill take over for Grey Wolf if youre still interested in arguing the point. Its rare that he and I are so completely on the same page, I would hate to squander this.

Feel free, but unless you can somehow convince me that white people were invented in the late 18th century by a consortium of french intellectuals, I don't know if it will help very much.

.

[Keltest]

No, I am not asking why the Death Eaters specifically haven't made their own time turners (though that's a fair question to ask)- I'm asking why an entire society hasn't had a number of enterprising souls either steal or reverse-engineer the secrets to high-level magic and sold, e.g, the elixir of life for a million dollars a dose.

The idea that people wanted these things and would try to steal them was the plot of the very first book. A number of interested powers and individuals devote significant expense to keeping them controlled and protected. Time Turners are kept in the most secure and secret wing of the Ministry of Magic. The Philosopher's Stone was pretty constantly kept under maximum security, and was then destroyed when it was decided that still wasn't good enough. The Elder Wand was studied, and was never really shown to be any better in practice than an ordinary wand anyway. Nobody familiar with the resurrection stone really wants to try and duplicate it. And the Invisibility Cloak wasn't an artifact in the public awareness, having plenty of copies around that did the job adequately anyway.

[Fyraltari]

Feel free, but unless you can somehow convince me that white people were invented in the late 18th century by a consortium of french intellectuals, I don't know if it will help very much.

Wich is preposterous since, as we all know, white people were invented by the Illuminati, a late XVIIIth century congregation of german intellectuals.

[zimmerwald1915]

Wich is preposterous since, as we all know, white people were invented by the Illuminati, a late XVIIIth century congregation of german intellectuals.

I thought White people were invented in the late XVII century by English colonial administrators.

[Vinyadan]

King Edward III from Macbeth can heal people with layin his hands, this doesn't make him a wizard.

Divine magic! Rangers are divine casters too, aren't they? In 3.5, at least.

The Nimbus 2000 replaced by the 2001 model.

Is that Goku learning to fly by his own power?