OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

[D.One]

I didn't know a human could die that young from natural causes under D&D rules, but this would work if it fits. Do we have any indicators for exactly when Sara died?

We know she died in 1181, about 2 years prior to Dungeon Crawling Fools. We don't know how she died, neither when she was born.

[hamishspence]

The youngest one can die in a fashion that can be called "of old age" is Middle Age.

If you roll 3 for CON, and then take the Pathetic flaw for CON, then you will have a natural CON of 1:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/bu...s.htm#pathetic

which means that the 1 pt "aging CON loss" at middle age will kill you.

I was wondering if Sangwaan's illness alluded to in SPOILER ALERT,

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might mechanically be represented that way - meaning she would automatically die at 35?

EDIT - apparently the age was

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before 30 - but of course, her illness wasn't given the chance to kill her.

[D.One]

The youngest one can die in a fashion that can be called "of old age" is Middle Age.

If you roll 3 for CON, and then take the Pathetic flaw for CON, then you will have a natural CON of 1:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/bu...s.htm#pathetic

which means that the 1 pt "aging CON loss" at middle age will kill you.

I was wondering if Sangwaan's illness alluded to in SPOILER ALERT, might mechanically be represented that way - meaning she would automatically die at 35?

I believe the person doesn't really needs to have a starting CON of 3 or have the Pathetic flaw to die of old age in Middle Age(s ). If some event (maybe poison, maybe illness, who knows?, maybe even the CON loss for some Raise Dead) decreases permanently such person's CON, or causes CON drain, in order for the person to be reduced to CON 1 before reaching middle age, the 1 point reduction would kill him/her of "old age/natural causes".

[hamishspence]

True - but the above examples, allow it to happen without poison, illness, and Raise Dead spells.

[Shining Wrath]

We do not know that OotS women experience menopause, nor that said menopause occurs at the same age as earth women. It's quite possible that Sarah had Julia at 60, especially if Eugene and Sarah were willing to spend some money for a cleric of Baldur or Freya or a druid to do something magical.

Once you've got dragons and fireballs, you've also got "Greater Restoration of Fertility", male and female versions.

[hroþila]

We do not know that OotS women experience menopause, nor that said menopause occurs at the same age as earth women.

Not entirely canon, but Roy/Hamlet's mother played by Sara in the Hamlet stick tale was said to be "likely postmenopausal".

[AutomatedTeller]

I can't tell whether this is why the forum is awesome or whether it's just a sign of ADD. (not AD&D, of course)

I mean, a discussion of the climax of the book has, so far, 10 posts about how old a character only seen 2 books ago was when she died.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or A Wizard Did It. That wizard probably being Eugene.

More likely a cleric of the fertility goddess. What, we use specialists IRL, why not in strip?

[Thurulian]

I can't tell whether this is why the forum is awesome or whether it's just a sign of ADD. (not AD&D, of course)

I mean, a discussion of the climax of the book has, so far, 10 posts about how old a character only seen 2 books ago was when she died.

Threads get off topic so quickly. Who thinks that someone from the order is gonna die in this book? i have an itching suspicion that someone important is gonna die soon.

[brian 333]

In a world of magic ageing effects one can achieve old age in a very short time. Simply viewing a ghost was once a cause of aging, as were the use of haste spells and items.

[eilandesq]

In a world of magic ageing effects one can achieve old age in a very short time. Simply viewing a ghost was once a cause of aging, as were the use of haste spells and items.

Still can in 5E, though it takes a badly failed and not that difficult saving throw to avoid it:


http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm


Horrifying Visage. Each non-undead creature within 60 feet of the ghost that can see it must succeed on a DC 13 Wisdom saving throw or be frightened for 1 minute. If the save fails by 5 or more, the target also ages 1d4 × 10 years. A frightened target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the frightened condition on itself on a success. If a target’s saving throw is successful or the effect ends for it, the target is immune to this ghost’s Horrifying Visage for the next 24 hours. The aging effect can be reversed with a greater restoration spell, but only within 24 hours of it occurring.

Nasty attack for a CR 4 monster to have access to.

[Kish]

Aging effects are one of many things that were removed from D&D when 3ed came out (and Kish considers them well gone) and then brought back for 5ed.

[D.One]

Aging effects are one of many things that were removed from D&D when 3ed came back (and Kish considers them well gone) and then brought back for 5ed.

Yeah, I was quite sure Ghosts aged people, but when I searched through the SRD, found this:

Horrific Appearance (Su): Any living creature within 60 feet that views a ghost must succeed on a Fortitude save or immediately take 1d4 points of Strength damage, 1d4 points of Dexterity damage, and 1d4 points of Constitution damage. A creature that successfully saves against this effect cannot be affected by the same ghost’s horrific appearance for 24 hours.

That said, the Epic Monster Phane can still age people:

Stasis Touch (Su): As temporal stasis, except as an at-will supernatural ability. Caster level 25th; save DC 21 + spell level. The DC is Charisma-based.

Time Leach (Su): For every round of apparent time experienced by the phane, it automatically absorbs the “future” from any creature it has successfully encapsulated in static time via its stasis touch (not its null time field), no matter the distance separating victim and phane, and no matter the number of victims. Of course, to the victim no time passes at all, but each apparent round experienced by the phane ages the victim 1d4 years, at the same time healing the phane of 20 hit points of damage. A victim who is not somehow released from static time by a friend who can cast dispel magic, greater dispell magic, or some other likely spell, eventually ages to death. Victims killed in this manner automatically fall out of static time as desiccated husks that disintegrate to a fine dust with even the lightest touch. Victims who are released prior to death immediately apply the physical effects of aging, but not the mental effects.

The Phane, however, is pretty rare, and pretty much a monster with temporal powers, so aging makes sense for it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Aging effects are one of many things that were removed from D&D when 3ed came out (and Kish considers them well gone) and then brought back for 5ed.

Yeah, that's one of the features from earlier editions that I wasn't all that pleased to see come back.

[Shining Wrath]

Aging effects are one of many things that were removed from D&D when 3ed came out (and Kish considers them well gone) and then brought back for 5ed.

OTOH, almost nothing costs you XP, levels, or ability scores.

[D.One]

I have no recollection of any other, but does someone remember if any other monster beside the Phane kept aging powers in 3/3.5?

[rferries]

Random question, but are we sure that Ponchula and the other vampires are 100% loyal to Greg & Hel? Greg pretended loyalty to Nergal when he was an enslaved spawn, but could his own spawn be loyal to the gods of death from the other pantheons? It'd be rather fitting if Greg wasn't directly controlling Ponchula (or the Exarch) due to his HD limit, and she ended up turning on him.

[Kish]

All dwarven vampires are born in Hel's hall, Hel spelled out; the dwarves are her purview. But since any he freed do have free will, that means they might choose to turn on Greg or at least desert him to save their own unlives; Durkon's religious fanaticism, for both the living and vampiric versions, is a choice.

[factotum]

Random question, but are we sure that Ponchula and the other vampires are 100% loyal to Greg & Hel? Greg pretended loyalty to Nergal when he was an enslaved spawn, but could his own spawn be loyal to the gods of death from the other pantheons?

Can't really think of a logical reason why all those vampires wouldn't be loyal to Hel? If they worshipped some other pantheon in life then that pantheon's Deathgod might have a claim on them, but they were all members of the Creed of Stone, who were explicitly stated as not worshipping any god at all. Therefore, since they all died in the North, I'm pretty sure the vamp spirits joyriding their corpses were supplied by Hel, just as Durkula was.

[D.One]

Random question, but are we sure that Ponchula and the other vampires are 100% loyal to Greg & Hel? Greg pretended loyalty to Nergal when he was an enslaved spawn, but could his own spawn be loyal to the gods of death from the other pantheons? It'd be rather fitting if Greg wasn't directly controlling Ponchula (or the Exarch) due to his HD limit, and she ended up turning on him.

We can't be 100% sure. Greg was loyal to Nergal (indirectly) when he was a thrall of Malack, but once freed, he had free will and opted to serve his creator, Hel. Any vampire who is Greg's thrall yet is completely loyal to him. Ponchula doesn't seem to fit the case (of being a thrall), and she may or may not be fully loyal. If we consider she's a Northener, her vampire spirit was created by Hel, and being a cleric, it's convenient to her to serve Hel, since it's how she gets her clerical powers. To trade Hel for another Death god would probably need her to get in contact with such religion first, something we don't know if she already experienced (but that seems unlikely, being a former Creed of the Stone cleric).

Some other Death (or just Evil) god could, maybe, try to contact her directly and convert her (specially someone from the twelve gods, that oppose the destroy the planet agenda), but such direct interference could be resented (and even barred, maybe) by Northern gods, mostly Hel.

That said, I don't think her loyalty to Hel is so adamant as Greg's or Gontor*'s, and I totally see her bailing out even on the clerical powers if her (un)survival is on the line.

[Fyraltari]

Random question, but are we sure that Ponchula and the other vampires are 100% loyal to Greg & Hel? Greg pretended loyalty to Nergal when he was an enslaved spawn, but could his own spawn be loyal to the gods of death from the other pantheons? It'd be rather fitting if Greg wasn't directly controlling Ponchula (or the Exarch) due to his HD limit, and she ended up turning on him.

Considering what vampires are, how they are formed andhow young these are, I strongly doubtthey have any loyaltyto anyone else than the golden trio of "Me, myself and I". The moment anyone gives them a better offer than Hel's? They turn.

However I doubt that will happen for a Doylist reason and a Watsonian reason:

Doylist: It would be a literal Deus ex Machina to have a god turn one of the vampires. anyway Darkon is pretty much the only one that poses a real threat alone here. Having Ponchella or the Exaargh turn on him would just be weird.

Watsonian: What better deal is there? Their spells are tied to their levels not their god so no-one can promise them more magical power and, since their plan involves hopping to Helheim when World Mark II is shut down, it probably involves hopping to World Mark III as soon as it is online as the Chosen Prophets of Hel Mistress of Death, Rightful Queen of the Northern Gods and possibly the only mid/high-level people in the world thus they would be in the best position to become the first of that long line of undead overlords Roy was worried about (and such have all the poncho-needing evil fun they want)so no-one can promise them more actual power.

[rferries]

All dwarven vampires are born in Hel's hall, Hel spelled out; the dwarves are her purview. But since any he freed do have free will, that means they might choose to turn on Greg or at least desert him to save their own unlives; Durkon's religious fanaticism, for both the living and vampiric versions, is a choice.

True, but the other members of the Creed of Stone he converted are non-dwarven (especially Ponchula).

Can't really think of a logical reason why all those vampires wouldn't be loyal to Hel? If they worshipped some other pantheon in life then that pantheon's Deathgod might have a claim on them, but they were all members of the Creed of Stone, who were explicitly stated as not worshipping any god at all. Therefore, since they all died in the North, I'm pretty sure the vamp spirits joyriding their corpses were supplied by Hel, just as Durkula was.

Greg was born in the desert though and he worships Hel (rather than Nergal), so I don't think the location matters as much as your race/culture. Good point about the Creed not having a specific pantheon though.

We can't be 100% sure. Greg was loyal to Nergal (indirectly) when he was a thrall of Malack, but once freed, he had free will and opted to serve his creator, Hel. Any vampire who is Greg's thrall yet is completely loyal to him. Ponchula doesn't seem to fit the case (of being a thrall), and she may or may not be fully loyal. If we consider she's a Northener, her vampire spirit was created by Hel, and being a cleric, it's convenient to her to serve Hel, since it's how she gets her clerical powers. To trade Hel for another Death god would probably need her to get in contact with such religion first, something we don't know if she already experienced (but that seems unlikely, being a former Creed of the Stone cleric).

Some other Death (or just Evil) god could, maybe, try to contact her directly and convert her (specially someone from the twelve gods, that oppose the destroy the planet agenda), but such direct interference could be resented (and even barred, maybe) by Northern gods, mostly Hel.

That said, I don't think her loyalty to Hel is so adamant as Greg's or Gontor*'s, and I totally see her bailing out even on the clerical powers if her (un)survival is on the line.

Yeah it's tricky. In any event I doubt it'll be an actual plot point, would be too complex given Hilgya's plot has been added.

Excellent insights, everyone!

[Fyraltari]

True, but the other members of the Creed of Stone he converted are non-dwarven (especially Ponchula).



Greg was born in the desert though and he worships Hel (rather than Nergal), so I don't think the location matters as much as your race/culture. Good point about the Creed not having a specific pantheon though.

That the Creed hosted the Northern Godsmoot makes me suspect that they are a Northern Cult (or at least that those we saw were the Northern branch of the Creed) and thus most likely made up only of Northeners.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Additionally, they don't have to serve a Death God(dess). Or any deity, really. It would be apropos if the people who used to worship Elemental Earth instead start to worship, say, the Negative Energy plane.

[rferries]

Additionally, they don't have to serve a Death God(dess). Or any deity, really. It would be apropos if the people who used to worship Elemental Earth instead start to worship, say, the Negative Energy plane.

Ha! I like this idea. Especially if they DO rebel against Hel, perhaps along the lines of "destroying the world will also destroy the Inner Planes, including the NEP".

[Rrmcklin]

Random question, but are we sure that Ponchula and the other vampires are 100% loyal to Greg & Hel? Greg pretended loyalty to Nergal when he was an enslaved spawn, but could his own spawn be loyal to the gods of death from the other pantheons? It'd be rather fitting if Greg wasn't directly controlling Ponchula (or the Exarch) due to his HD limit, and she ended up turning on him.

As far as I'm aware, Greg wasn't "pretending" anything; he was a thrall and thus had to follow his master. I don't think any allegiance to Nergal was established either, just to Mallack.

And that he isn't controlling Ponchula seems pretty firmly established at this point; she's doing this of her own free-will. She, and probably all of the rest, could leave when she wanted, but that wouldn't serve any real point.

[Yendor]

Additionally, they don't have to serve a Death God(dess). Or any deity, really. It would be apropos if the people who used to worship Elemental Earth instead start to worship, say, the Negative Energy plane.

Given that their hosts got a sharp lesson in the downsides of not having a patron deity, I'm not sure they'd be so keen to follow suit.

EDIT: The clerics have an incentive to follow Hel, because she can give them power. Any non-cleric vampire would have no particular reason to follow the plan, so it's better to keep them under direct control.

[SilverCacaobean]

I've been thinking... not that it affects the storyline, it's more of a philosophical questioning... some dwarves might escape Hel during the death-by-erased-world event. The Giant has aknowledged that living an honorable life is important, maybe as much as the moment of death. At least, living an honorable life might lead someone to be doing something honorable at the moment of death. With this last thought in mind, there will certainly be dwarves that, at the moment the world is being erased, will be "being honorable" and thus will escape Hel.

Again, I don't think this affects the fact the they must stop Hel anyway.

Well, as much as I remember, Rich said living an honorable life is important only because it maximizes the odds the dwarf'll die doing something honourable. But the way I understand it, the death has to somehow come, directly or indirectly, from whatever honourable thing the dwarf was doing. Like a warrior getting killed in combat by their enemies, a politician getting assassinated or a dwarf dying of exposure getting necessary supplies during a dangerous blizzard. If the politician got assassinated for some reason unrelated to their politics, or the warrior died like this, I don't think they're going to Valhalla, even though they were in the middle of their duty. I think their agency matters (I mean it matters if the death is a result of an conscious honourable choice they made) so if they die by the gods unmaking the world it can never be honourable, because it can never be a result of their choices.

I'm not sure there's anything to support what I've said, but that's how this whole situation reads to me. Whatever the truth, Hel's convinced all the dead dwarfs will end up going to her and that's what matters most right now.

[F.Harr]

I wonder what Durkon's got up his sleeve.

If Durkula's smarter, is Durkon wiser?

[rferries]

I wonder what Durkon's got up his sleeve.

If Durkula's smarter, is Durkon wiser?

In game terms, Durkula is wiser, more intelligent, and much more charismatic than Durkon unfortunately. However that doesn't guarantee that he can outwit Durkon (in fact the plot pretty much demands that Durkon's ploy is successful).