Theurge Redux

[JNAProductions]

HIT POINTS
Hit Dice: d6
Hit Points at 1st Level: 6+Constitution Modifier
Hit Points at Higher Levels: 1d6 (4)+Constitution Modifier

PROFICIENCIES
Armor: None
Weapons: All simple weapons
Tools: Any one artisan tool

Saving Throws: Wisdom and either Intelligence or Charisma
Skills: Any two from Arcana, History, Nature, Religion, Medicine, or Performance.

EQUIPMENT
You start with the following equipment, in addition to the equipment granted by your background:

Theurge

				—Spell Slots per Spell Level I—									—Spell Slots per Spell Level II—						—Spell Slots per Spell Level III—
Level	Proficiency Bonus	Features	Cantrips Known	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	1st	2nd	3rd	4th
1st	+2	Spellcasting, Ritual Casting	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
2nd	+2	Second Casting	4	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	1	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	—
3rd	+2	Third Casting, Archetype	5	2	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	1	—	—	—	—	—	1	—	—	—
4th	+2	Ability Score Improvement	5	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	2	—	—	—	—	—	1	—	—	—
5th	+3	Substitute Casting	5	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	—	2	—	—	—	—	—	1	—	—	—
6th	+3	Archetype Feature	6	3	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	3	1	—	—	—	—	1	—	—	—
7th	+3	Might Of Magic	6	4	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	3	1	—	—	—	—	2	1	—	—
8th	+3	Ability Score Improvement	7	4	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	—	3	1	—	—	—	—	2	1	—	—
9th	+4	Archetype Feature	7	4	3	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	4	2	—	—	—	—	2	1	—	—
10th	+4	Esoteric Knowledge	7	4	3	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	4	2	1	—	—	—	2	1	—	—
11th	+4	Combined Magic	8	4	3	3	2	—	—	—	—	—	4	3	1	—	—	—	3	2	1	—
12th	+4	Ability Score Improvement	8	4	3	3	3	1	—	—	—	—	4	3	1	—	—	—	3	2	1	—
13th	+5	Archetype Feature	8	4	3	3	3	1	—	—	—	—	4	3	2	—	—	—	3	2	1	—
14th	+5	Might Of Magic II	9	4	3	3	3	1	—	—	—	—	4	4	2	1	—	—	3	2	1	—
15th	+5	Additional Esoteric Knowledge	9	4	3	3	3	2	1	—	—	—	4	4	2	1	—	—	4	3	2	1
16th	+5	Ability Score Improvement	9	4	3	3	3	2	1	—	—	—	4	4	3	1	—	—	4	3	2	1
17th	+6	Archetype Feature	9	4	3	3	3	2	1	1	—	—	4	4	3	2	—	—	4	3	2	1
18th	+6	Signature Spells	10	4	3	3	3	3	1	1	1	—	4	4	3	2	1	—	4	3	2	1
19th	+6	Ability Score Improvement	10	4	3	3	3	3	2	1	1	—	4	4	3	2	1	—	4	4	3	2
20th	+6	Spell Mastery	10	4	3	3	3	3	2	1	1	1	4	4	3	3	2	1	4	4	3	2

Spellcasting-At level one, you gain your first pool of spellcasting, following the first part of the spellcasting table above. This casting is based off any one mental stat, chosen at level one and never able to be changed. You may choose from the spell lists detailed below. You start with four spells known for this pool, and gain two more at each subsequent level in this class, recorded in a spellbook. You may have a number of spells prepared at a time equal to your levels in Theurge plus your casting stat for this pool.

Ritual Casting-At level one, you also gain the ability to cast any spells you know with the ritual tag as rituals.

Second Casting-At level two, you gain a second pool of spellcasting, following the second casting table. The casting is based off a different mental from the first pool, chosen at level two and never able to be changed. You may choose from the spell lists detailed below. You gain three spells known at level two for this pool, and two more at each subsequent level in this class, recorded in a spellbook. You may have a number of spells prepared at a time eqaul to half your levels in Theurge plus your casting stat for this pool.

Third Casting-At level three, you gain your third and final pool of spellcasting, following the third casting table. This casting is based off the third mental stat. You may choose from the spell lists detailed below. You gain two spells known at level three, and two more at each subsequent level in this class, recorded in a spellbook. You may have a number of spells prepared at a time eqaul to one third your levels in Theurge plus your casting stat for this pool.

Spoiler: A Note On Spell Pools

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First off, multiclassing-should a Theurge multiclass, you should let them gain a fourth pool of casting-their Theurge pools, and then their regular casting pools. This does make the Theurge multiclass-unfriendly, but better than breaking the game.

Second off, you CAN select the same list for each pool. This can let you flesh out your list, if you want, or play a highly specialized mage. Generally, though, I'd recommend picking different lists, for variety's sake.

Archetype-At level three, choose your archetype. You gain additional features at levels six, nine, thirteen, and seventeen.

Ability Score Improvement-At levels four, eight, twelve, sixteen, and nineteen, you may either gain +2 to any one stat, or +1 to any two. Unless otherwise stated, no stat can be brought above 20 in this fashion.

Substitute Casting-At level five, you may substitute two spell slots from different pools to cast a spell of the same level from the third pool. For instance, you may trade a 1st level slot from your first and second pools to cast a 1st level spell from the third pool, using the third pool's casting stat for it.

Might Of Magic-At level seven, you may add your proficiency bonus to any damage dealt with spells, or to any healing done with spells.

Esoteric Knowledge-At level ten, you may add any one spell known of a level you can cast to any one pool of casting.

Combined Magic-At level eleven, you may combine spells from all pools to cast a spell of higher potency. You may take a slot from the first, second, and third pool (of the same level) to cast a spell from any pool at the level of the slots used plus one. For instance, you may take a third level slot from all three pools to cast a spell at fourth level from the second pool, even though you do not have a fourth level slot normally available in that pool.

Might Of Magic II-At level fourteen, you may inflict damage and give healing even on spells that normally do not. Any time you cast a harmful spell that doesn't normally deal damage (such as Bane or Hold Person) you may inflict your proficiency modifier in psychic damage, if they fail their save. (Note that this damage is considered part of the initial casting, and so does not trigger any "when damaged" effects.) In addition, any time you cast a beneficial spell (excluding cantrips), the recipients regain HP equal to your proficiency modifier.

Additional Esoteric Knowledge-At level fifteen, you may gain one spell known of a level you can cast to every pool of casting.

Signature Spells-At level eighteen, pick one third level or lower spell known from each spell pool. You may, once per short rest, cast these spells at third level without expending a slot.

Spell Mastery-At level twenty, pick any two second level or lower spells from your first pool, any two second level or lower spells from your second pool, and any one first level spell from your third pool. You may cast these at-will at either second level (for the first and second pools) or first level (for the third) without expending any slots.

Spoiler: Helper

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Magical Invigoration-At third level, you gain temporary hit points every time you cast a spell, equal to the slot level expended. (Cantrips give 1 THP.)

Powerful Healing-At sixth level, any time you roll maximum on a die for healing, you may roll the die again and add its result to the healing done.

Shared Invigoration-At level nine, you may redirect your THP as a reaction. Whenever someone you can see who is within 60' takes damage, you may give them your THP as a reaction.

Healer's Ward-At thirteenth level, you gain +2 to your AC so long as your focus or component pouch are wielded.

Frugal Healer-At level seventeen, you may expend half the cost of any material components used and still cast a spell with a costly component.

Spoiler: Harmer

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Warmage-At level three, you gain proficiency in light armor and martial weapons.

War Magic-Also at level three, you gain the ability to make a single weapon as a bonus action attack after expending a spell slot.

Magical Fortitude-At level six, you gain an additional hit point for every level you take in this class.

Improved War Magic-At level nine, you may now make a single weapon attack as a bonus action after casting any spell, even cantrips.

Powerful Spells-At level thirteen, any time you roll maximum on a damage die with a spell, you may roll the die again and add the result to the damage done.

Heightened Spell-At level seventeen, you may, once per short rest, impose disadvantage on the first saving throw made against a spell you cast.

Spoiler: Spell Lists

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Spoiler: Helpful

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Spoiler: Cantrips

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Blade Ward
Control Flames
Create Bonfire
Dancing Lights
Druidcraft
Guidance
Gust
Light
Mage Hand
Mending
Message
Minor Illusion
Mold Earth
Prestidigitation
Produce Flame
Resistance
Shape Water
Spare The Dying
Thaumaturgy
True Strike

Spoiler: First Level

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Animal Friendship
Absorb Elements
Alarm
Beast Bond
Bless
Ceremony
Command
Compelled Duel
Comprehend Languages
Create Or Destroy Water
Cure Wounds
Detect Evil And Good
Detect Magic
Detect Poison And Disease
Disguise Self
Expeditious Retreat
Faerie Fire
False Life
Feather Fall
Goodberry
Guiding Bolt
Healing Word
Heroism
Identify
Illusory Script
Jump
Longstrider
Mage Armor
Protection From Evil And Good
Purify Food And Drink
Sanctuary
Shield
Shield Of Faith
Silent Image
Sleep
Speak With Animals
Tenser's Floating Disk
Unseen Servant
Zephyr Strike

Spoiler: Second Level

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Aid
Alter Self
Animal Messenger
Arcane Lock
Augury
Barkskin
Beast Sense
Blur
Calm Emotions
Continual Flame
Darkvision
Detect Thoughts
Enhance Ability
Enlarge/Reduce
Find Traps
Gentle Repose
Gust Of Wind
Healing Spirit
Invisibility
Knock
Lesser Restoration
Levitate
Locate Animals Or Plants
Locate Object
Magic Mouth
Magic Weapon
Mirror Image
Misty Step
Nystul's Magic Aura
Pass Without Trace
Prayer Of Healing
Protection From Poison
Rope Trick
See Invisiblity
Silence
Skywrite
Spider Climb
Warding Bond
Zone Of Truth

Spoiler: Third Level

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Aura Of Vitality
Beacon Of Hope
Blink
Catnap
Clairvoyance
Create Food And Water
Daylight
Elemental Weapon
Fly
Gaseous Form
Haste
Leomund's Tiny Hut
Life Transference
Magic Circle
Major Image
Mass Healing Word
Nondetection
Phantom Steed
Plant Growth
Protection From Energy
Remove Curse
Revivify
Sending
Speak With Dead
Speak With Plants
Tiny Servant
Tongues
Wall Of Sand
Wall Of Water
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Wind Wall

Spoiler: Fourth Level

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Arcane Eye
Aura Of Life
Aura Of Purity
Control Water
Death Ward
Dimension Door
Divination
Fabricate
Fire Shield
Freedom Of Movement
Greater Invisibility
Hallucinatory Terrain
Leomund's Secret Chest
Locate Creature
Mordekainen's Private Sanctum
Otiluke's Resilient Sphere
Polymorph
Stone Shape
Stoneskin

Spoiler: Fifth Level

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Animate Objects
Antilife Shell
Awaken
Bigby's Hand
Commune
Commune With Nature
Contact Other Plane
Control Winds
Creation
Dream
Far Step
Greater Restoration
Hallow
Holy Weapon
Legend Lore
Mass Cure Wounds
Modify Memory
Passwall
Planar Binding
Raise Dead
Rary's Telepathic Bond
Reincarnate
Scrying
Seeming
Skill Empowerment
Telekenisis
Teleportation Circle
Transmute Rock
Tree Stride
Wall Of Force
Wall Of Stone

Spoiler: Sixth Level

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Arcane Gate
Contingency
Drawmij's Instant Summons
Druid Grove
Find The Path
Forbiddance
Globe Of Invulnerability
Guards And Wards
Heal
Heroes' Feast
Investiture Of Flame
Investiture Of Ice
Investiture Of Stone
Investiture Of Wind
Move Earth
Planar Ally
Primordial Ward
Programmed Illusion
Scatter
Transport Via Plants
True Seeing
Wind Walk
Word Of Recall

Spoiler: Seventh Level

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Etherealness
Mirage Arcana
Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion
Plane Shift
Project Image
Regenerate
Ressurection
Reverse Gravity
Simulacrum
Teleport
Temple Of The Gods

Spoiler: Eight Level

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Animal Shapes
Antimagic Field
Clone
Control Weather
Demiplane
Glibness
Holy Aura
Mighty Fortress
Mind Blank
Telepathy

Spoiler: Ninth Level

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Astral Projection
Foresight
Gate
Invulnerability
Mass Heal
Mass Polymorph
Power Word Heal
Shapechange
Time Stop
True Polymorph
True Ressurection

Spoiler: Damage

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Spoiler: Cantrips

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Acid Splash
Chill Touch
Create Bonfire
Eldritch Blast
Fire Bolt
Frostbite
Infestation
Magic Stone
Poison Spray
Primal Savagery
Produce Flame
Ray Of Frost
Sacred Flame
Shillelagh
Shocking Grasp
Thorn Whip
Thunderclap
Toll The Dead
Vicious Mockery
Word Of Radiance

Spoiler: First Level

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Armor Of Agathys
Arms Of Hadar
Burning Hands
Catapult
Chaos Bolt
Chromatic Orb
Divine Favor
Guiding Bolt
Hail Of Thorns
Hellish Rebuke
Inflict Wounds
Ray Of Sickness
Searing Smite
Thunderous Smite
Thunderwave
With Bolt
Wrathful Smite
Zephyr Strike

Spoiler: Second Level

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Aganazzar's Scorcher
Branding Smite
Cloud Of Daggers
Dragon's Breath
Dust Devil
Flame Blade
Flaming Sphere
Heat Metal
Magic Weapon
Maximilian's Earthen Grasp
Melf's Acid Arrow
Mind Spike
Moonbeam
Phantasmal Force
Pyrotechnics
Ray Of Enfeeblement
Scorching Ray
Shadow Blade
Shatter
Snilloc's Snowball Swarm
Spike Growth
Spiritual Weapon

Spoiler: Third Level

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Call Lightning
Crusader's Mantle
Elemental Weapon
Erupting Earth
Fireball
Flame Arrows
Hunger Of Hadar
Lightning Arrow
Lightning Bolt
Melf's Minute Meteors
Sleet Storm
Spirit Guardians
Thunder Step
Vampiric Touch

Spoiler: Fourth Level

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Blight
Elemental Bane
Evard's Black Tentacles
Guardian Of Faith
Ice Storm
Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound
Phantasmal Killer
Shadow Of Moil
Sickening Radiance
Staggering Smite
Storm Sphere
Vitriolic Sphere
Wall Of Fire

Spoiler: Fifth Level

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Banishing Smite
Bigby's Hand
Circle Of Power
Cloudkill
Cone Of Cold
Conjure Volley
Dawn
Destructive Wave
Flame Strike
Holy Weapon
Immolation
Maelstrom
Negative Energy Flood
Steel Wind Strike
Wall Of Light
Wrath Of Nature

Spoiler: Sixth Level

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Blade Barrier
Bones Of The Earth
Chain Lightning
Circle Of Death
Disintegrate
Eyebite
Harm
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere
Sunbeam
Wall Of Ice
Wall Of Thorns

Spoiler: Seventh Level

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Crown Of Stars
Delayed Blast Fireball
Divine Word
Finger Of Death
Fire Storm
Mordenkainen's Sword
Prismatic Spray
Symbol
Whirlwind

Spoiler: Eight Level

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Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting
Earthquake
Illusory Dragon
Incendiary Cloud
Sunburst
Tsunami

Spoiler: Ninth Level

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Meteor Swarm
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Wall
Psychic Scream
Storm Of Vengeance
Weird

Spoiler: Indirect Harm

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Spoiler: Cantrips

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Create Bonfire
Friend
Magic Stone
Shillelagh

Spoiler: First Level

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Bane
Cause Fear
Charm Person
Color Spray
Dissonant Whispers
Ensnaring Strike
Entangle
Grease
Sleep
Tasha's Hideous Laughter

Spoiler: Second Level

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Blindness/Deafness
Cordon Of Arrows
Darkness
Earthbind
Enthrall
Hold Person
Phantasmal Force
Silence
Web

Spoiler: Third Level

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Animate Dead
Bestow Curse
Conjure Animals
Counterspell
Dispel Magic
Enemies Abound
Fear
Glyph Of Warding
Hypnotic Pattern
Slow
Stinking Cloud
Tiny Servant

Spoiler: Fourth Level

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Banishment
Charm Monster
Compulsion
Confusion
Conjure Minor Elementals
Conjure Woodland Beings
Dominate Beast
Elemental Bane
Evard's Black Tentacles
Giant Insect
Grasping Vine
Summon Greater Demon

Spoiler: Fifth Level

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Animate Objects
Conjure Elemental
Danse Macabre
Dispel Evil And Good
Dominate Person
Dream
Enervation
Geas
Hold Monster
Infernal Calling
Mislead
Synaptic Static

Spoiler: Sixth Level

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Conjure Fey
Create Homonculus
Create Undead
Eyebite
Flesh To Stone
Magic Jar
Mass Suggestion
Mental Prison
Otto's Irresistible Dance
Soul Cage

Spoiler: Seventh Level

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Conjure Celestial
Delayed Blast Fireball
Forcecage
Power Word Pain
Sequester
Symbol

Spoiler: Eighth Level

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Antimagic Field
Anitpathy/Sympathy
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Illusory Dragon
Maddening Darkness
Maze
Power Word Stun

Spoiler: Ninth Level

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Imprisonment
True Polymorph

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Oi, those spell lists are a PAIN to do! Please, as usual, critique this. I could especially use some advice on making the spell lists better, perhaps some homebrew spells, and more lists to pick from. Maybe with tighter themes...

Also, this is a toned-down version of the old Theurge. Its slots are the same, but its features are MUCH weaker.

[JNAProductions]

Re-opening for critique and advice.

[Loek]

Let me start by asking about the cantrips.

1) The class doesn't have the sub-feature of spellcasting, called cantrips. So technically you don't get any... but the table does have them.
2) The "Indirect Harm" list only has 4 of them... while probably on point thematically... this seems very low, compared to the other 2 lists with 15ish
3) Several features (both main class and sub class) allow cantrips to count for the triggering conditions... this seems like a really bad idea to me.


Moving on to Starting equipment... there isn't any. Nowhere near the most important bit of a class, but if you mention it, it might be a good idea to actually fill it out.


Then we have the main classes Non-spellcasting features, which are strong enough to fill out the average wizard sub-class.


The spolier "A Note On Spell Pools" has me asking 2 things:
1) What did you mean by all the info on multiclassing (I honestly didn't understand what you meant by any of it... unless you really want to give them even more 1st level spell slots by gaining the other class their spell slots, etc, as if they were normally taking that class?)
2) The note on picking the same spell pool 3 times... see my note above about cantrips in the 3rd pool, that'd be a problem.


Moving on to the Sub-classes, where I wanna say 2 things:
1) The "any time you roll a maximum on a X die" features, sound cool, but by the time you start throwing around 6+ dice... that's going to add up, ALOT. Also, would maximum values on those additional dice trigger this again?
2) Both sub-classes feel like they basically give several feats/items/class features for free.



And finally, the overal picture:
I hope this class isn't meant to be balanced versus normal 5e classes. Because, as is (even if you didn't take a sub class), this class is going to blow most wizards out of the water.

Let's compare some things directly to a wizard:
Cantrips at level 20: 5 vs 10 ==> Theurge doubles
Spell slots: the first list equals the wizards list ==> Theurge wins by margin of both II and III list
Spells known: The first spellcasting list equals the wizard ==> Theurge wins by margin of both II and III list
Spell Mastery level: Wizard gets it at level 18, Theurge at level 20 ==> Slightly slower for Theurge, but, see next point:
Spell Mastery amount: Wizard gets 1 1st level and 1 2nd level, Theurge gets 4 2nd level or lower and 1 1st level ==> Theurge wins by up to 3 2nd level spells
Signature Spells level: Wizard gets it at level 20, Theurge at level 18 ==> Slightly faster for Theurge, but also:
Signature Spells amount: Wizard gets 2 3rd level spells, Theurge gets 3 3rd level or lower ==> Theurge wins by up to 1 3rd level spell (Minor bonus on the wizard side is that the spells always count as prepared)

On top of that you get 6 "Magical Secrets" ala Bard to flesh out all 3 pools (unless you only get 2 but they get added to all pools?)
And we have the bonuses to damage/healing, while not large, this is still a consistent and probably unnecessary bonus.


General conclusion:
The idea is interesting (I always loved the dual-casting prestige classes of 3.x), but the execution feels more "Gestalt" than "Theurge". In other words, this feels significantly overpowered compared to the already available classes and should only be used in a extremely high power campaign, with the rest of the classes/characters boosted to a similar degree.


PS: I haven't gone into depth regarding the spell pools, except to check if they contain some of the big wizard spells (which they do).
PPS: Also, looking back now, how about the spell book... can they add new spells from scrolls?

[Loek]

(And I just noticed that I forgot to add some possible suggestions, besides looking at the things I critiqued)

My suggestion would be to reduce the I slots, (half?) and the amount of spells learned maybe also halved.
And then limit II and III atleast as much (check if you have more/less spell slots and free spells known, compared to the average wizard. I'd go for more lower level slots, less high level slots (Maybe a single slot they can use for their 7th/8th/9th spell). And more spells known, but again with a similar focus on lower level spells - Keep the cantrips, but maybe start lower and make sure that at least X% must be from pool II and III)
Also, for spells prepared, I'd say you don't get the modifier from the mental stat for the 2nd and 3rd... maybe not for the first either.

Then go through the rest of the features and dump anything that is purely "more numbers/dice" and replace it with something thematic to the kind of theurge they are. And again, make sure you aren't just giving them free feats/other classes' features/free inherent items.

Also, maybe consider having 3 pools (wizard/sorc, cleric, druid) and only picking 2. (And, this would be hard, maybe a half caster kind of pool option, though that would then always default to the last pool... so yeah, hard)