Is George Lucas really that bad?

[Mechalich]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the Starwars fandom only seems to have become toxic, reactionary, and bitter in the last few years (and I suspect that this is more due to a current general cultural malaise, rather than being Starwars-specific).

I don't think it was like that at the time the Prequals came out (or other EU stuff that was released while Lucas was still in charge), and the criticisms aimed at the Prequals weren't "toxic" or "reactionary".

When Disney purchased the franchise they made the deliberate choice to obliterate the canonicity of the entire EU - a franchise that had been developing for 35 years. A huge portion of the hardcore fans were angered by this (full disclosure, myself-included) and whether they ultimately forgave Disney or not, this move drastically reduced the charitable impulse felt among them towards the new material going forward, because everyone felt the ax take something in the EU that they cared about, ranging from huge things like Mara Jade and the entirety of SWTOR (still ongoing!) to little known things like Dawn of the Jedi.

This also meant that the biggest fans of the franchise were forever comparing new material to this alternative universe that had been ruled out. So TFA and TLJ get judged not only on their merits but in comparison to the (selectively edited, nostalgia-goggle induced) complements in the EU. So not only to does bitter old man Luke Skywalker in TLJ get compared to hypotheticals alternatives, he gets compared to the fully realized alternative that is Grand Master Luke Skywalker of the New Jedi Order. If you think that was the better version, and many fans do (again, self included) that amplifies the bitterness exponentially.

[Lethologica]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the Starwars fandom only seems to have become toxic, reactionary, and bitter in the last few years (and I suspect that this is more due to a current general cultural malaise, rather than being Starwars-specific).

I don't think it was like that at the time the Prequals came out (or other EU stuff that was released while Lucas was still in charge), and the criticisms aimed at the Prequals weren't "toxic" or "reactionary".

Any starting point for toxicity in Star Wars fandom that is after the RLM takedown of the prequels is incorrect.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I know there's a third anthology film coming up in two years time but do you have any source confirming it's a Kenobi, film?

You mean beyond the official statement that it's in pre-visualization?

[Mando Knight]

When Disney purchased the franchise they made the deliberate choice to obliterate the canonicity of the entire EU - a franchise that had been developing for 35 years.

Part of the problem is, they basically had no other choice--if they were going to use the Legends events 30 years after Endor, they would have been stuck with the Dark Nest Crisis, which would have been a straight-up terrible choice for the sequel trilogy. The Legacy of the Force novel series (set five years later) is actually conceptually a lot closer to what people were probably hoping the sequels were (i.e. Jedi Master Luke Skywalker has resurrected the Jedi Order, but Leia and Han's son has fallen to the Dark Side and leads what is more-or-less a resurrected Empire), but even that would have to be drastically re-written in order to work on the silver screen due to its ties with the previous 25 years of post-RotJ novels. That they would have to deal with Karen Traviss again (at the very least by giving her a line in the credits and possibly royalties for collaborating on the novel series) was probably another issue since she was a fairly controversial writer due to her developing Mandalorians into her own little pet characters, and made a break with Lucasfilm when she couldn't accept that George wanted to go a different direction with them in The Clone Wars.

No matter what Lucasfilm would have done to adapt those stories for film, they would have still drawn a lot of ire from the fanbase, so instead they chose to just make an explicit clean break from the old canon in order to give the screenwriters more room to work the story.

[factotum]

"That's a name I haven't heard in a long time. Since, oh, when you were born".

I'm pretty sure the actual line is "Since, oh, *before* you were born". Which makes it even longer!

[snowblizz]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the Starwars fandom only seems to have become toxic, reactionary, and bitter in the last few years (and I suspect that this is more due to a current general cultural malaise, rather than being Starwars-specific).

I don't think it was like that at the time the Prequals came out (or other EU stuff that was released while Lucas was still in charge), and the criticisms aimed at the Prequals weren't "toxic" or "reactionary".

It was. There just was less Internet to whine on. It's actually more causally correct to say the bad prequel movies caused internet toxicity through the angry fans than that internet toxicity caused angry fans ti think movies were bad.

[deuterio12]

Yeah, that's correct. What the original Star Wars opening crawl says about it is:

"Rebel spaceships, striking from a hidden base, have won their first victory against the evil Galactic Empire.

During the battle, Rebel spies managed to steal secret plans to the Empire's ultimate weapon, the DEATH STAR"

Seems pretty similar to what happened in Rogue One to me?

Maybe the "steal secret plans", but the "won their first victory" bit becomes pretty farfetched considering that in Rogue 1 all the rebel spies died along a big chunk of the rebel forces, with Leia's vessel itself being a glorified escape ship trying to run away while the rebel fleet is decimated. If that's what the rebels count as victory, I don't want to imagine how their defeats looked like!

Part of the problem is, they basically had no other choice--if they were going to use the Legends events 30 years after Endor, they would have been stuck with the Dark Nest Crisis, which would have been a straight-up terrible choice for the sequel trilogy. The Legacy of the Force novel series (set five years later) is actually conceptually a lot closer to what people were probably hoping the sequels were (i.e. Jedi Master Luke Skywalker has resurrected the Jedi Order, but Leia and Han's son has fallen to the Dark Side and leads what is more-or-less a resurrected Empire), but even that would have to be drastically re-written in order to work on the silver screen due to its ties with the previous 25 years of post-RotJ novels. That they would have to deal with Karen Traviss again (at the very least by giving her a line in the credits and possibly royalties for collaborating on the novel series) was probably another issue since she was a fairly controversial writer due to her developing Mandalorians into her own little pet characters, and made a break with Lucasfilm when she couldn't accept that George wanted to go a different direction with them in The Clone Wars.

No matter what Lucasfilm would have done to adapt those stories for film, they would have still drawn a lot of ire from the fanbase, so instead they chose to just make an explicit clean break from the old canon in order to give the screenwriters more room to work the story.

Agreed, there was just too much EU material to be able to handle it in a sane way.

Plus they're bringing back the best pieces like admiral Thrawn.

[Androgeus]

I see the film goes over the making of the original trilogy with some scenes from the PT thrown in. It doesn't really tell us what we want to know in 2018, like how the Disney deal went down, or even what it was like to make the Prequel Trilogy.

The follow up is here. Can't remember exactly what SFDebris covers in it, but I'm pretty sure the last part focuses on post-prequel times. (Rynjin actually post all 3 parts earlier.)

[factotum]

Maybe the "steal secret plans", but the "won their first victory" bit becomes pretty farfetched considering that in Rogue 1 all the rebel spies died along a big chunk of the rebel forces

If you consider getting the Death Star plans at all to be a victory then it still works, and let's be honest, they did destroy a major Imperial base--albeit with the assistance of said moon-sized battle station!

[Cikomyr]

If you consider getting the Death Star plans at all to be a victory then it still works, and let's be honest, they did destroy a major Imperial base--albeit with the assistance of said moon-sized battle station!

They also took out 2 ISD, which isnt chump change. The first time the Rebels actually took them out in open combat.

[Devonix]

They also took out 2 ISD, which isnt chump change. The first time the Rebels actually took them out in open combat.

Unless you ignore the Rebels series.

[hamishspence]

Unless you ignore the Rebels series.

Even in Rebels, the few Star Destroyers that have been destroyed by the Rebellion, have never been destroyed in "straight fights" - not bombing runs, not turbolaser attacks, etc.

Nearly always, it has been from the inside that the ship was destroyed. A lightsaber falling into an engine. A superweapon going off inside it.


Or, in one case, a Death Star Kyber Crystal exploding near it.

Hence the "open combat" proviso.


Purgills (space whales) seem to be more efficient though - doing massive damage to the hulls - though I don't think we've seen an ISD crash or explode due to purgill attack.

[Cikomyr]

Unless you ignore the Rebels series.

Which episode do Rebel ships defeat ISD in a straight fight?

[Devonix]

Which episode do Rebel ships defeat ISD in a straight fight?

What about the finale?

Yes Yes I know squids. But they had fought Star destroyers before and you know that there are other books and things with them being taken out. It's the problem that they're too iconic to not have them shown. And What really constitutes a " straight fight " anyway.

[factotum]

Even in Rebels, the few Star Destroyers that have been destroyed by the Rebellion, have never been destroyed in "straight fights" - not bombing runs, not turbolaser attacks, etc.

Well, they did take out an Interdictor by ramming it in season 3...OK, not quite an ISD, but it blew up nice all the same.

[Devonix]

The main thing is that in order for rogue one to count as a first victory you have to ignore a bunch of stuff.

[Bohandas]

Or for it to mean something other than a straight combat victory. Something like a strategic intelligence victory.

[deuterio12]

The original text says the plans were a bonus spoil from winning the battle. But rogue 1 shows the rebel forces being completely routed, with only the plans to show for their effort. And Darth Vader is in hot pursuit right in there. Claiming victory feels really weird when the battle did not end and your enemy is right at your heels while you try to run for safety.

[Lethologica]

I'm pretty sure the actual line is "Since, oh, *before* you were born". Which makes it even longer!

Of course, that means the prequels screwed it up first, since Obi-Wan is called that after the twins are born.

[GrayDeath]

Leia put all her skill points into the 'Personal Spaceflight' force talent tree instead of the 'Plot Shield' talent tree. All the other Force-sensitive characters laughed at her.

Love this! Just perfectly caputeres an RPG Players take on that stupid scene ^^

Agreed, there was just too much EU material to be able to handle it in a sane way.

Plus they're bringing back the best pieces like admiral Thrawn.

Indeed.

However, a lot of the slightly pre to say 10 years past BoY EU Stuff was above average to great.
It got really bad with Young Jedi Knights and reailly wird with the Vong onwards....

[Keltest]

I'm pretty sure the actual line is "Since, oh, *before* you were born". Which makes it even longer!

The full line is "I haven't gone by the name Obi-wan since, oh, before you were born."

Which is correct, more or less. He makes no mention of when the last time he heard it was other than "a long time", which is also correct.

There is no error, you guys just remember wrong.

[Rogar Demonblud]

However, a lot of the slightly pre to say 10 years past BoY EU Stuff was above average to great.
It got really bad with Young Jedi Knights and really weird with the Vong onwards....

Frankly, after a while the only EU stuff I bothered with was Zahn, Stackpole, Allston and depending on mood Crispin's Han Solo Trilogy. It was enough to fill out our games without bogging down everything in canon vs fanon wars.

[hamishspence]

I tend to the view that the "downhill slide" for the post-ROTJ EU was after NJO - began with Denning's Dark Nest Trilogy and continued from there.

While there were plenty of entertaining moments - the era itself wasn't up to the same standard.

[Lethologica]

The full line is "I haven't gone by the name Obi-wan since, oh, before you were born."

Which is correct, more or less. He makes no mention of when the last time he heard it was other than "a long time", which is also correct.

There is no error, you guys just remember wrong.

Do you remember the part of RotS where Obi-Wan stopped going by that name before Luke was born? I don't. That's the most minor of errors, to be sure.

[Keltest]

Do you remember the part of RotS where Obi-Wan stopped going by that name before Luke was born? I don't. That's the most minor of errors, to be sure.

Its only an error if you parse his statement overly literally and ignore the context surrounding his interactions with Luke. Luke's birth was the event that precipitated his going to Tattoine and answering to Ben. He could have said "since you were born, almost exactly to the day." but that would be A: unnecessarily precise and B: raise a lot of awkward questions.

[Devonix]

It's a retcon we all know it's a retcon do we really have to jump through hoops to rationalize it. It's just like the whole shoots first thing. We may hate it. But until it's changed Han didn't shoot first. Because these movies have had themselves retconned since ESB and onwards.

[Peelee]

Its only an error if you parse his statement overly literally and ignore the context surrounding his interactions with Luke.

I agree. Which is why I've framed my problem with it* as he is suddenly being pulled back into his old life after leaving it behind almost two decades ago, except for fighting an full on former Sith lord just a few years prior. It shouldn't be nearly the shock that it's played as, given the new events.

*it, of course, being the fight with Maul on Tatooine to begin with.

[Keltest]

I agree. Which is why I've framed my problem with it* as he is suddenly being pulled back into his old life after leaving it behind almost two decades ago, except for fighting an full on former Sith lord just a few years prior. It shouldn't be nearly the shock that it's played as, given the new events.

*it, of course, being the fight with Maul on Tatooine to begin with.

I mean, he knew that day was going to come eventually. That's why he stayed to watch over Luke in the first place, instead of becoming a nomad, or joining the rebellion, or finding some rock to sit on like Yoda did, or any other number of things that didn't involve becoming a desert hermit. Darth Maul was maybe half an hour of excitement at most, followed by a lot of contemplation, reflection and nostalgia. It wasn't a particularly uprooting event compared to the Rebellion coming to him for help and Luke starting to need active mentoring.

[Peelee]

I mean, he knew that day was going to come eventually. That's why he stayed to watch over Luke in the first place, instead of becoming a nomad, or joining the rebellion, or finding some rock to sit on like Yoda did, or any other number of things that didn't involve becoming a desert hermit. Darth Maul was maybe half an hour of excitement at most, followed by a lot of contemplation, reflection and nostalgia. It wasn't a particularly uprooting event compared to the Rebellion coming to him for help and Luke starting to need active mentoring.

Neither of which he knew about when his world was shaken by hearing "Obi Wan." Knowing the day would come and being surprised when the day comes don't really mesh that well, especially if he was watching over Luke.

The series gave Kenobi a world-shaking moment, and then later undercut it severely. That's all I'm saying, and nothing that I've heard against it has been all that good a rebuttal.

[Rockphed]

Before the prequels ruined everything, I always figured Obi-wan Kenobi had staked out a chunk of Tatooine as his personal fief long before he met anyone by the name "sky-walker". 20 some years before one side or the other of the Clone Wars had come to him for help. Along the way he dragged local tramp pilot, Anakin Skywalker out of the rut he and his brother/friend Owen had been in and off on an idealistic crusade to restore peace and prosperity to the Galaxy. When it failed, he returned to his home in the desert (no, this makes no sense considering that Darth Vader supposedly knew where he came from, but I was 12).

Since the prequels, I have assumed that Obi-wan stayed on Tatooine because it was out of the way and it was as easy to hide on Tatooine as anywhere else.