Social Surprise

[Xetheral]

Because orcs arent likely to beat a foe, demonstrate treachery, or expect the same treatment in return?

Its literally all they know.

If treachery never works against orcs, then why is their society so full of it? I think a society full of treachery is evidence that it does work on members of that society, you just have to be good at it.

For example, even against orcs wary for treachery, fooling them might be as simple as tricking them into thinking they've already detected and stopped your inevitable betrayal.

[Tanarii]

Treachery doesn't necessarily mean mechanical surprise.

The opposite may often be true though.

[Malifice]

If treachery never works against orcs, then why is their society so full of it? I think a society full of treachery is evidence that it does work on members of that society, you just have to be good at it.

For example, even against orcs wary for treachery, fooling them might be as simple as tricking them into thinking they've already detected and stopped your inevitable betrayal.

For surprise, the opponents need to be totally unawares. As in have totally let their guard down.

If your Warlock was using Mask of Many faces (and Deception) or a Doppleganger etc to fool a creature that you were a loved one, or a friend non combatant of some sort, then yeah sure; surprise.

But in a situation of negotiations/ parley with a potentially hostile creature, the answer is generally no (and sometimes maybe with some kind of ability check).

A good rule of thumb to use is 'Would your players be cool letting Gorgak the Ork warrior who they met earlier that day watch over them as they sleep?' If the answer is no, then the PCs obviously havent let their guard down around old Gorgak, and he isnt getting surprise on them in any kind of social encounter.

Same applies in reverse.

Ill simply ask the player: Does your PC trust this NPC to the point he has totally let his guard down around them, or has no reason to have it up with this NPC in the first place? If the PC answers 'Yes' then I'll let the PC be surprised.

And again, the same applies in reverse.

[ShadowImmor]

I get the feeling the point we're all disagreeing over is specifically,

What constitutes Surprise?

Is it, being completely unaware of an attack?

Or is it a few second delay in reacting because something happened you weren't expecting?

It seems to me everyone saying no surprise is sticking to the first definition and everyone saying get surprise is sticking to the second.

And honestly, there's no right answer, that's up to the DM. We can quote RAW/RAI all we like, saying "The book only says you get surprise if you are completely unaware" (I would dispute in the OP in the second situation that the Orcs would be COMPLETELY unaware, as has been pointed out treachery is normal, so an ambush could be completed expected, so you could even argue the wouldn't be surprised then but that's perhaps another point entirely), or "If they are not explicitly prepared for an attack they get surprised." But the DM decides if the Orcs get surprised and the players should accept the DM's ruling.

I don't personally believe when 5e was written they meant that you can ONLY get surprise in very EXPLICIT circumstances, and if they did, I feel they missed a trick. I feel the explanation in the book is to give an idea of what can constitute surprise and then allow the DM to make their own determination.

From my understanding the philosophy behind 5e is "Rulings not Rules" as an extension of that, you can assume any situation not explicitly covered in the rules is up to DM's choice, and it all depends on how prepared for betrayal these Orcs are. In my Homebrew world, there is an Orcish nation that includes orcs and goblins that are in a strict Honour Bound Tribal society, so attacking under a banner of peace is completely unthinkable, in my world, the orcs would be surprised by that, (I would perhaps give them some bonuses similar to Raging if they were attacked in such a manner as it goes against their fundamental laws), but in this world the Orcs might already be planning on betraying the party, and the PCs just got their first, in which case they wouldn't be surprised.

All depends on the Orcs and the attitudes they have/what the DM says really, and all the opinions in the world won't necessarily be able to (or should be able to) change that.

[Xetheral]

A good rule of thumb to use is 'Would your players be cool letting Gorgak the Ork warrior who they met earlier that day watch over them as they sleep?' If the answer is no, then the PCs obviously havent let their guard down around old Gorgak, and he isnt getting surprise on them in any kind of social encounter.

I think ShadowImmor hit the nail on the head: we are definitely using totally different definitions of what constitutes surprise. I award it whenever one side unilaterally starts combat in a way that catches the other side momentarily off-guard. It's obviously harder to catch prepared foes off-guard (which calls for application of advantage/disadvantage on the ability check), but it's very difficult for anyone to be simultaneously prepared for every way combat can start, so with good tactics and some luck it's usually at least possible.

When surprise is (potentially) achievable in a wide range of circumstances it incentives the players to think tactically in how they approach encounters before hostilities begin. If surprise is generally impossible without an ambush, that removes an entire tactical dimension in many encounters. (Ambushes are still more effective in reliably gaining surprise, since the ability check is more likely to succeed, or even be an auto-success if the opponents are busy and can't use passive perception.)

[ad_hoc]

From my understanding the philosophy behind 5e is "Rulings not Rules" as an extension of that, you can assume any situation not explicitly covered in the rules is up to DM's choice,

Anyone can do anything in any game. The question is whether it makes for a fun game.

I believe the conditions of surprise in the rules are set that way for a reason. I wouldn't want to play in a game where surprise occurs when a character is aware of other creatures.

At most I can see granting advantage on initiative. That is what advantage and disadvantage are for. Circumstantial bonuses or drawbacks.

[ShadowImmor]

Anyone can do anything in any game. The question is whether it makes for a fun game.

I believe the conditions of surprise in the rules are set that way for a reason. I wouldn't want to play in a game where surprise occurs when a character is aware of other creatures.

At most I can see granting advantage on initiative. That is what advantage and disadvantage are for. Circumstantial bonuses or drawbacks.

That's why I'm saying it needs to be left up to the DM. Personally, I would want to reward them planning this in advance, but it then opens up that people will stop believing them when they try and make peace as last time, they attacked under the banner of peace.

But I'm getting a little off point there. It goes back to me point as to What do you consider Surprise? Is it the few seconds of fumbling after you chieftain has just been murdered? Or does it need literally need to be you CANNOT see the other person before they initiate? If it's the latter, how do you define whether a Rogue is "Hidden" during combat? Surely he can't ever be truly hidden if his enemies are expecting him to attack, and there by not gain advantage on attacks they don't see coming, because they are in combat, it is to be expected! That makes the idea of a Rogue hiding in Combat useless, as you could never gain advantage for being hidden unless it was your first attack during combat and you were unseen at the beginning, which strikes me as the opposite of what was intended when they gave Rogues the ability to use a bonus action to Dash, Disengage or Hide. Why let them Hide if there weren't supposed to be some sort of benefit from it? (I know they need something to hide behind, but even so, the intention is that they can hide in combat and be sneaky to gain an Advantage over their enemies while there enemies are EXPECTING to be attacked, they can still do it stealthily enough to gain advantage).

However, I do think giving all the PCs advantage on initiative is an excellent half way choice (after the attack is made, so in the OP the person stabbing the chieftain effectively gets a surprise round on everybody that they used to stab the chieftain).

[Maelynn]

My ruling would be simple. Perhaps I'm thinking a bit too simple, though.

Given the nature of Orcs, as already described at length in this thread, I'd rule they're considered Alert (much like the feat) when in situations with potential threats. The presence of enemies, even while successfully negotiating a peace treaty, is one such situation.

[ShadowImmor]

My ruling would be simple. Perhaps I'm thinking a bit too simple, though.

Given the nature of Orcs, as already described at length in this thread, I'd rule they're considered Alert (much like the feat) when in situations with potential threats. The presence of enemies, even while successfully negotiating a peace treaty, is one such situation.

I like it. It's simple, explains why, makes sense, is within RAW, and RAI. I think that's a very good answer, and it justifies both Rules and Story wise why they wouldn't get a surprise round.

I know I haven't said it yet, but RAW, I do agree with everyone who says they don't get a Surprise Round.

However, RAI, I don't believe they meant to be all encompassing (i.e. the rule covers every possibility) with ANY of their rules for 5e.

So in the difference between RAW and RAI, that space, is where the DM lives and makes his decisions. I like seeing why people justify it one way or the other and what mechanical/story reasons they give for it. Like Maelynn's answer I've quoted, I feel is excellent, and even if I wouldn't make the ruling myself, I would happily accept that as a player.

[Tanarii]

Mechanically Surprise is getting thee drop on the other side that they can't even act for more than the next 6 seconds.

Not worry about reactions for that definition, let's not get too nitpick-y here.

We also have two examples of surprise given in the PHB:
- players sneaking up on and ambushing bandits
- a gelatinous cube dropping down on PCs

In both cases, the mere potential for surprise is because the other side is totally unaware of a specific threat. Being alert and aware for generalized danger is what allows them to use passive perception to possibly notice threats (chapter 8 p182), but not knowing the specific threat is there is why there is a check.

Translating this into social surprise, it means the target of the social ambush must not be aware of the specific threat. If enemy can see the guy right there as a potential threat, no amount of "I suddenly pull my sword and stab him" is going to make a difference for 6 seconds of not acting. Instead you might react slower than the sword pulling guy (roll lower initiative) or you might react faster (pull your own weapon faster in response and stab back).

Now if you've got archers behind the screens ready to unleash a hail of death when you pick your nose, then surprise check is appropriate. If waiter-assassins are going to pull a dagger and stab you while you're engrossed in a conversation with the High Muckety-Muck of Poobah Town in a social setting where you have no reasonable cause to expect a specific danger, it might be appropriate to use a Charisma (Disguise Kit) vs Wisdom (Insight).

But Orcs sitting at a negotiating table with their human enemies, with warriors from both sides standing around suspiciously starting at each other waiting for something to go down? No way. (And don't try to tell me it's going to be all flowers and doves with Orcs or Goblins involved.)

[KRSW]

A reminder about surprise is that not all enemies have to be surprised. A surprised enemy just loses their first turn of combat, the game happens normally otherwise. Maybe the orc chieftain knew they would attack because hes not a total moron. His orc bodyguards might be total morons and do not suspect anything at all.

Another example is when, like others have said, an enemy or player has the Alert feat. Their party members can still be surprised. However, when that happens they still act normally and their teammates lose their turn.

[Tanarii]

A reminder about surprise is that not all enemies have to be surprised. A surprised enemy just loses their first turn of combat, the game happens normally otherwise. Maybe the orc chieftain knew they would attack because hes not a total moron. His orc bodyguards might be total morons and do not suspect anything at all.

Conversely, to be surprised a specific enemy individual must not be aware of, or become aware of via the check, any threat on the other side. A single specific threat on the other side they are aware of means they can't be surprised.

Note that the rules assume two sides. They don't tell us if three sides means you must be unaware and fail your checks vs all possible threats from all other sides, or not. I assume that's the rule but it's not specified.

[KRSW]

Conversely, to be surprised a specific enemy individual must not be aware of, or become aware of via the check, any threat on the other side. A single specific threat on the other side they are aware of means they can't be surprised.

Note that the rules assume two sides. They don't tell us if three sides means you must be unaware and fail your checks vs all possible threats from all other sides, or not. I assume that's the rule but it's not specified.

Definitely up to the dungeon master, however if say a player were distracting a guard and another player walks up behind said guard and stabs him in the neck. I would allow the guard a perception roll to see if they know the other player is behind them. If they fail, surprise happens as normal because I would not say the distracting player is seen as a threat. If they succeed then obviously they turn around and say what are you doing and may get a few insight rolls based on circumstance.

[Malifice]

That's why I'm saying it needs to be left up to the DM. Personally, I would want to reward them planning this in advance, but it then opens up that people will stop believing them when they try and make peace as last time, they attacked under the banner of peace.

But I'm getting a little off point there. It goes back to me point as to What do you consider Surprise? Is it the few seconds of fumbling after you chieftain has just been murdered? Or does it need literally need to be you CANNOT see the other person before they initiate? If it's the latter, how do you define whether a Rogue is "Hidden" during combat? Surely he can't ever be truly hidden if his enemies are expecting him to attack, and there by not gain advantage on attacks they don't see coming, because they are in combat, it is to be expected! That makes the idea of a Rogue hiding in Combat useless, as you could never gain advantage for being hidden unless it was your first attack during combat and you were unseen at the beginning, which strikes me as the opposite of what was intended when they gave Rogues the ability to use a bonus action to Dash, Disengage or Hide. Why let them Hide if there weren't supposed to be some sort of benefit from it? (I know they need something to hide behind, but even so, the intention is that they can hide in combat and be sneaky to gain an Advantage over their enemies while there enemies are EXPECTING to be attacked, they can still do it stealthily enough to gain advantage).

However, I do think giving all the PCs advantage on initiative is an excellent half way choice (after the attack is made, so in the OP the person stabbing the chieftain effectively gets a surprise round on everybody that they used to stab the chieftain).

Surprise is more than a moments hesitation mate. Thats modelled by rolling a bad Dexterity (initiative) check.

Surprise is literally getting caught with your pants down, totally blindsided. Stumbling into an ambush totally unawares kind of thing. Unless you're exceptionally alert (i.e. the feat) you cant do anything at all for several seconds (including taking reactions like responding with shield or deflect arrows or counterspell).

Being surprised in 5E is a death sentence. Its much harsher than it was in 4E and and 3E. Its a whole rounds worth of attacks from your enemies, including not being able to take reactions against those attacks half the time.

If my PC was surprised in a social setting that to me is the DM telling me 'Your PC totally trusts this NPC and is not expecting any hostilities.' I'll be the one to tell him that unless its obvious (Doppleganger of a person I trust etc).

I dont impose it on my players for the same reason. Unless they are totally caught with their pants down, its not surprise. An NPC that they've met in a dungeon and are talking to at arms length (even cordially)? Not a chance in hell it gets surprise in this situation.

[Tanarii]

Definitely up to the dungeon master, however if say a player were distracting a guard and another player walks up behind said guard and stabs him in the neck. I would allow the guard a perception roll to see if they know the other player is behind them. If they fail, surprise happens as normal because I would not say the distracting player is seen as a threat. If they succeed then obviously they turn around and say what are you doing and may get a few insight rolls based on circumstance.

I wouldn't allow surprise in that case. The other player just gets advantage on their attack when their turn comes around for not being noticed.

Surprise means you're so unprepared for any potential threat from any direction that you lose your first 6 seconds of actions. In the example you're giving, the guard should already be aware of the potential threat from the distracting PC. All that PC is doing is allowing the other PC to make a Hide check while being out in the open, which they normal wouldn't be able to do.

[KRSW]

I wouldn't allow surprise in that case. The other player just gets advantage on their attack when their turn comes around for not being noticed.

Surprise means you're so unprepared for any potential threat from any direction that you lose your first 6 seconds of actions. In the example you're giving, the guard should already be aware of the potential threat from the distracting PC. All that PC is doing is allowing the other PC to make a Hide check while being out in the open, which they normal wouldn't be able to do.

You are right, I think we agree. The roll I was talking about would be Guard's Perception vs PC Stealth so pretty much what you are saying.

Looking back, I think yours makes more sense because the player shouldn't get a full round of attacks say if a fighter made the stealth roll they shouldn't be able to action surge and make 4+ attacks without the guard at least being able to roll initiative, something they would technically be able to do if they got a surprise round.

How would you rule something like a fighter, affected by a haste and fly spell. Depending on how you interpret fly + haste he would either have still only 60 ft fly speed or 120ft fly speed. Regardless he can move 120+ ft and still attack. If the creature he was attacking was more than 120ft away and unaware of him before he started moving would you give them surprise? Or is it too ridiculous to be able to do that preemptively.

[ad_hoc]

However, I do think giving all the PCs advantage on initiative is an excellent half way choice (after the attack is made, so in the OP the person stabbing the chieftain effectively gets a surprise round on everybody that they used to stab the chieftain).

Attacks should definitely not be able to be made without first rolling initiative.

The surprised creature should get a chance to have a turn (thus no longer being surprised and able to use a reaction).

Also, there is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e.

[Thrudd]

Attacks should definitely not be able to be made without first rolling initiative.

The surprised creature should get a chance to have a turn (thus no longer being surprised and able to use a reaction).

Also, there is no such thing as a surprise round in 5e.

That's not true. The definition of being surprised is that you miss your first turn, even if initiative has been rolled. By RAW, surprise is determined individually now and not per-side (because perception and initiative are now also individually determined). Surprise is possible if one party was trying to be stealthy and the other party fails to notice them (with perception checks). If you're surprised you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat or make any reactions.

[ad_hoc]

That's not true. The definition of being surprised is that you miss your first turn, even if initiative has been rolled. By RAW, surprise is determined individually now and not per-side (because perception and initiative are now also individually determined). Surprise is possible if one party was trying to be stealthy and the other party fails to notice them (with perception checks). If you're surprised you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat or make any reactions.

You should read the surprise rules again.

I think they are the most misunderstood in 5e. Probably because people read them with prior assumptions.


Well, actually you've got it right there. Read what you wrote again.

"That's not true. The definition of being surprised is that you miss your first turn"

"If you're surprised you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat or make any reactions."

You just wrote both of these things.

[Tanarii]

That's not true.

Nothing he said was not true.

Attacks should never come before initiative is rolled.

There is no surprise round in 5e.

And following from these two statements, surprised creatures should be allowed to roll initiative, and get their first turn.

Furthermore: Surprised creatures do not lose a turn. They lose the ability to take reactions before their first turn, and they lose the ability to take actions on their first turn.

When you put it all together: Since there is no surprise round and attacks should never come before initiative is rolled, surprised creatures always have a chance to roll high on their initiative, getting their turn before any enemies, thus allowing them to take a reaction from that point on until their next turn. They lose their actions, but not the turn.

[Thrudd]

You should read the surprise rules again.

I think they are the most misunderstood in 5e. Probably because people read them with prior assumptions.


Well, actually you've got it right there. Read what you wrote again.

"That's not true. The definition of being surprised is that you miss your first turn"

"If you're surprised you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat or make any reactions."

You just wrote both of these things.

There is such a thing as being surprised, it sounded like you were saying there wasn't. Surprise gives the surpiser the ability to act before the surprisee, however they are describing it through rules-language. To me, that is the same as "missing a turn". If the surprised gets to react to the surpriser, there might as well be no surprise. Your initiative order shouldn't matter. I disagree with the reading that gives you the ability to take reactions before or during the time the surprise action is delivered.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There is such a thing as being surprised, it sounded like you were saying there wasn't. Surprise gives the surpiser the ability to act before the surprisee, however they are describing it through rules-language. To me, that is the same as "missing a turn". If the surprised gets to react to the surpriser, there might as well be no surprise. Your initiative order shouldn't matter. I disagree with the reading that gives you the ability to take reactions before or during the time the surprise action is delivered.

Disagree if you wish, but that's RAW. Initiative happens before combat, surprised creatures can react after their turn. No free rounds.

[Tanarii]

Disagree if you wish, but that's RAW. Initiative happens before combat, surprised creatures can react after their turn. No free rounds.

Yeah, the rule is crystal clear (for once):
"If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends."
PHB p189

[Lunali]

Disagree if you wish, but that's RAW. Initiative happens before combat, surprised creatures can react after their turn. No free rounds.

This is why I would usually allow the first attack (and only the first attack) to happen before initiative is rolled. As before then, there's nothing for people to react to so it doesn't matter how good their reactions are. After that, the side that had planned it would likely get advantage on their initiative but it would really have to be unexpected for anyone to actually be surprised.

[Tanarii]

This is why I would usually allow the first attack (and only the first attack) to happen before initiative is rolled. As before then, there's nothing for people to react to so it doesn't matter how good their reactions are. After that, the side that had planned it would likely get advantage on their initiative but it would really have to be unexpected for anyone to actually be surprised.

Unless the attacker is totally unseen and unbearable and the person they are attacking doesn't know they are there, and most likely is at very long range, this makes no sense. There is always a chance they will react faster than the person trying to initiate the attack, see or hear it start and be quicker on the draw.

If the attacker is all those, then there is the possibility of surprise, or advantage on the attack.

If the defender has a way to negate surprise and act first, such as a 7th level Barbarian raging and also winning initiative, they're just that good. They react a split second before the attack comes in and take any action consistent with knowing danger is incoming but not knowing the precise danger.

In more mechanical terms, allowing attacks outside of initiative is one of the most anti-player house rules you can make. Provided you apply it fairly both directions, of course.

[Lunali]

Unless the attacker is totally unseen and unbearable and the person they are attacking doesn't know they are there, and most likely is at very long range, this makes no sense. There is always a chance they will react faster than the person trying to initiate the attack, see or hear it start and be quicker on the draw.

If there's a decent number of people around, there's almost no chance of being able to pull off the deception/stealth and slight of hand checks to make the initial attack undetected. That said, if you do manage it, you should be rewarded by actually getting to make the attack.

[Tanarii]

If there's a decent number of people around, there's almost no chance of being able to pull off the deception/stealth and slight of hand checks to make the initial attack undetected. That said, if you do manage it, you should be rewarded by actually getting to make the attack.

And part of pulling it off successfully is winning the initiative. If you do that, you get to make the attack first.

Edit: you also get to make the attack first if your side surprises that enemy, even if you lose the initiative. But they get reactions in that case.

[mephnick]

People must just have games full of players shouting "I DECLARE...COMBAAAT" and getting free attacks because they shouted it first. If you want to be quick on the draw and get your attacks off first, make a character with high initiative. That's literally what the mechanic is abstracting.

[ad_hoc]

This is why I would usually allow the first attack (and only the first attack) to happen before initiative is rolled. As before then, there's nothing for people to react to so it doesn't matter how good their reactions are. After that, the side that had planned it would likely get advantage on their initiative but it would really have to be unexpected for anyone to actually be surprised.

A Monk catching an unseen arrow just be it strikes them is a classic trope.

Another common example in D&D is a Wizard casting Shield. They are reacting to the attack itself in a split-second.

Assassin was also designed with the actual rules in mind. Your houserule is a huge buff to Assassins.

Your houserule makes combat less exciting and more mundane, and encourages players to yell "I attack" at the first mention of another creature.

[Lunali]

Your houserule makes combat less exciting and more mundane, and encourages players to yell "I attack" at the first mention of another creature.

This rule would only apply in situations where both parties are already aware of each other and not in combat.