OOTS #1122 - The Discussion Thread

[Shatteredtower]

See what happens when you fight in front of the children, Hilgya?

We've taken a vote and it looks like the eyes have it for the moment.

Roy's more Dracula than Durkon right now, what with all the impaling going on. I guess when the fate of the world is at stake, you just have to opt for hit and mist.

[Keltest]

Ok, I normally don't nitpick these things, but seriously? Hilgya failed her save and Kudzu of all people didn't?

[Essex]

I think we're missing 1-2 rounds of actions from the rest of the OotS and some passed saves, but that's drama for ya. Maybe missing some failed dispels too but Roy was probably jumping to conclusions on all buffs being gone. Since V was listing them out. I'm going to guess it wasn't just lucky saves and the Giant left at least 1 mind blank active.

If we assume that the multiple Dispel Magic spells took place at the end of a round, then the next round would have been the Fireball, the first thrown sword, and the first two Dominates. The final round would have been the second thrown sword and another two Dominates (I'll assume the vampire facing Belkar did that one).

That means we're missing the round one actions of the two who weren't yet Dominated and the round two action of V at a minimum (we could be missing more actions if the Dominated individuals had time to act before getting Dominated). Since Belkar would have been holding back to defend V, weren't not missing any important actions on his part. Elan would have just been singing in the background since his instrument is in his hand. Haley would have fired arrows. Nothing too dramatic there either.

So it looks like the only big missing action was from V, and they may have been either holding action or reapplying a protective spell. Not sure what V's next spell should be. Fireball sounds nice, but the remaining cluster of vampires wouldn't have been within the area effect of the dispels. Maybe throw a Greater Dispel Magic at the enemy caster group?

[Elkins]

Ok, I normally don't nitpick these things, but seriously? Hilgya failed her save and Kudzu of all people didn't?

Why would any of the vamps have bothered targeting the baby? I mean, I guess you could command him to throw a tantrum or try to bite his mum's arms or spit up all over her or something, but even as a distraction, there are far better options available.

[Elenna]

Ok, I normally don't nitpick these things, but seriously? Hilgya failed her save and Kudzu of all people didn't?

AFAIK Dominate targets one person, it's not an area effect spell. Presumably none of the vamps bothered to Dominate Kudzu, since, y'know, he's a baby.

EDIT: Oh hi, it's a ninja!

[Bob_McSurly]

Also, I like the idea somebody had that we might be about to find out what goes against Belkar's True Nature. If that's not what happens, I think it makes sense for this to be Minrah's moment to shine (assuming she'll eventually get one). In fact, it seems like it might be both, given that we had a whole strip of Minrah talking to Belkar about his feelings for Durkon.

[unbeliever536]

Hm. I would have thought Belkar's protection from evil thing would have protected him from the mind-whammy. But I guess he wasn't glowing yellow and experienceing pain the whole time. Maybe I missed before where he decided not to activate that in favor of a casted buff.

• I'm glad V is still in control of V.
• Elan Mind Controlled.... yea, I'm not all that worried (Sorry, Elan). He might well Mass Cure Light Wounds his party since that was his attack spell for the Vamps. As a certain cartoon rooster was want to say, "That boy's about as sharp as a bowlin' ball."
• Haley Mind Controlled is not good. But I don't know what the limits are of what they can compel her to do. A charm wouldn't let her attack Roy or V, I don't think. CERTAINLY not Kudzu or Elan. But Hilgya or Belkar.... maybe. But I don't know if the limits on Vampire control exceed those of a Charm.
• Belkar Mind Controlled is Very Ungood. Esp if they just want him to stab people. I suppose it's possible this is where he might die.
• Hilgya Mind Controlled is, Double Plus Ungood. OTOH, she might get triple bonus saves at resisting any commands from what she believes is DURKON.
• Minrah is stilll in control of herself, but I doubt she has tooo many good spell slots in reserve. I hope so, though.

It wasn't shown on-panel, but it would be sensible for him to take Hilgya's Protection from Law instead of using his PoE amulet.

[sotanaht]

By rolling a 1 on their save roll.



Not after the dispel, it seems.

GW

Magic items are not affected by dispel. I guess it could be a cast-from type item rather than a continuous effect though, or he could have just failed the save in spite of it just like the cleric since I'm pretty sure it only boosts his saves rather than grants immunity.

[Ruck]

I expect we'll spend the next few strips alternating between the memory and the fight (either that or the next few strips are going to alternate a few panels in the memory, a few panels in the fight) with the climactic moment of the fight at around the same time as the most important/climactic moment of the memory.

I hope this is right. It makes sense and I think it would play well once it's all finished. It's just pretty jarring while reading waiting one strip at a time.

[Keltest]

Magic items are not affected by dispel. I guess it could be a cast-from type item rather than a continuous effect though, or he could have just failed the save in spite of it just like the cleric since I'm pretty sure it only boosts his saves rather than grants immunity.

Protection from Alignment spells automatically suppress all types of mind control effects while the spell is active, no matter who the caster is or what alignment any party is. It wont block them or dispel them, so a Dominate Person spell would still be active and functional when the Protection from X wore off, but while its active you cant be magically controlled.

[Snowbluff]

Ok, I normally don't nitpick these things, but seriously? Hilgya failed her save and Kudzu of all people didn't?

A high level cleric
with good wis
fails a will save
against a vampire who has a penalty to wis.

[TRH]

A high level cleric
with good wis
fails a will save
against a vampire who has a penalty to wis.

Don't you mean penalty to cha? Because the vampires seem like they'd all have high wis.

[LunarDrop]

WAHHH! This is so cool!
I was pleasantly surprised Vaarsuvius made their save (or just wasn't targeted yet), but then someone in this thread reminded me of the IFCC contract and now I'm scared they're going to get whisked away.
Also, Belkar actually agreed (kinda) to protect V this time, as opposed to their first fight with Xykon where he ditched them to go kill goblins. Hooray for character development!
Thanks for making my day, Giant. Can't wait to see what happens next.

[dps]

• I'm glad V is still in control of V.
• Elan Mind Controlled.... yea, I'm not all that worried (Sorry, Elan). He might well Mass Cure Light Wounds his party since that was his attack spell for the Vamps. As a certain cartoon rooster was want to say, "That boy's about as sharp as a bowlin' ball."
• Haley Mind Controlled is not good. But I don't know what the limits are of what they can compel her to do. A charm wouldn't let her attack Roy or V, I don't think. CERTAINLY not Kudzu or Elan. But Hilgya or Belkar.... maybe. But I don't know if the limits on Vampire control exceed those of a Charm.
• Belkar Mind Controlled is Very Ungood. Esp if they just want him to stab people. I suppose it's possible this is where he might die.
• Hilgya Mind Controlled is, Double Plus Ungood. OTOH, she might get triple bonus saves at resisting any commands from what she believes is DURKON.
• Minrah is stilll in control of herself, but I doubt she has tooo many good spell slots in reserve. I hope so, though.

Dominate does allow you to force the target to take actions that are against its nature, but the target gets a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. So, for example, Elan could be forced to attack Haley, or Hilgya to attack Kudzu, but each would get a saving throw to avoid it. So it would be smart to avoid giving any of the dominated characters orders to take actions against their natures, especially Hilgya.

If I was in Durkula's shoes, the order I'd give Hilgya would be something like, "Attack the nearest Lawful Good person". That wouldn't go against her nature, I don't think.

I'm not sure if ordering Belkar to kill his teammates would still not go against his nature or not, though ordering him to do anything that would harm Mr. Scruffy would go against his nature, I'd figure. I suppose I'd order him to attack V and hope that either that still doesn't go against his nature or he'd fail his save, even with a +2.

Bet a command to Haley of "Swipe any magic items your teammates possess" would avoid triggering a saving throw. She might even try to take Roy's sword with that order.

Ordering Elan to attack any of his teammates would probably trigger a save throw; certainly ordering him to attack Haley would. Not sure what orders I'd give him.

[TRH]

Ordering Elan to attack any of his teammates would probably trigger a save throw; certainly ordering him to attack Haley would. Not sure what orders I'd give him.

"Expend all your spell slots casting Lesser Confusion on us. High level slots first."

[Fincher]

We don't actually see Belkar get hit by a dispel. It's also possible that Hilgya gave him Protection From Law along with the others before she did it to Elan and Haley; it would explain why he didn't activate his clasp. So it's at least possible that, while he's technically dominated, Durkula and company wouldn't be able to make him do anything.

[Thecommander236]

Weak minded fools. Ever Belkar who should know better by now and should've put on his protection from evil ring. Also, Haley? Really? Come on. You're better than that.

[deuterio12]

"Expend all your spell slots casting Lesser Confusion on us. High level slots first."

"Sing to improve the party's move silently!"

[SpectralTime]

...And here I thought bards and clerics actually had pretty good will saves. The baby passed for pity's sake!

[Lord Of Mantas]

And now I think Roy is going to learn firsthand how fighting Malack would have ended. In a roundabout sort of way.

[Dagny]

This is pretty bad. Since Roy just ordered Belkar to protect V, they're right next to each other. Even a single round of Domination could be enough for someone as offensively specialized as Belkar to deal serious damage to someone as squishy as V.

[Mandor]

Dominate does allow you to force the target to take actions that are against its nature, but the target gets a new saving throw with a +2 bonus. So, for example, Elan could be forced to attack Haley, or Hilgya to attack Kudzu, but each would get a saving throw to avoid it. So it would be smart to avoid giving any of the dominated characters orders to take actions against their natures, especially Hilgya.

If I was in Durkula's shoes, the order I'd give Hilgya would be something like, "Attack the nearest Lawful Good person". That wouldn't go against her nature, I don't think.

I'm not sure if ordering Belkar to kill his teammates would still not go against his nature or not, though ordering him to do anything that would harm Mr. Scruffy would go against his nature, I'd figure. I suppose I'd order him to attack V and hope that either that still doesn't go against his nature or he'd fail his save, even with a +2.

Bet a command to Haley of "Swipe any magic items your teammates possess" would avoid triggering a saving throw. She might even try to take Roy's sword with that order.

Ordering Elan to attack any of his teammates would probably trigger a save throw; certainly ordering him to attack Haley would. Not sure what orders I'd give him.

Interesting. On one hand, simply leaving them PARKED and out of the fight entirely is not a bad option from Durkula's point of view. Though I imagine he'll get greedy or afraid and want to actually USE them, particularly against Roy and V. Fair point on Belkar's change of personality over the strips... and it need not mean change of alignment... as we saw many times, Tarquin had people he considered friends. Whether or not WE think he understood the word "friend" is another issue. HE thought he did, and he and Malack had a friendly understanding. Belkar may have been slowing changing a little bit one day at a time until he doesnt' remember having changed, as he put it.... to the point where he might not want to attack certain members of the Order. But that does not have to imply "No Longer Evil", if the Giant doesn't want it to. V though... I dunno. V and Belkar have a long, LONG history of antagonizing each other. I think Belkar attacking V wouldn't be THAT hard a sell.

Hilgya's the obvious cannon. Strong clerical magic. Whatever she spends fighting the order she can't spend fighting the vampires. And he promised not to kill Kudzu, but he might take some delight in making Roy fight mama with baby strapped to her chest. After all, if ROY has to defend himself and accidentally kills the tyke, that's not Greg's fault... But I really do think she'll get a chance to save at the idea of taking ANY ORDER, of ANY KIND from what she believes to be Durkon. Her Durkon Hate-O-Meter is so PINGED to the max, and she's completely Anti-Authority anyway. Taking Orders isnt' something she likes doing under favorable circumstances from people she doesn't hate. But from Durkon??

But hey. Maybe Ponchula dominated her. Though my Elan Story Instincts tell me it has to be Greg.

[Mandor]

This is pretty bad. Since Roy just ordered Belkar to protect V, they're right next to each other. Even a single round of Domination could be enough for someone as offensively specialized as Belkar to deal serious damage to someone as squishy as V.

True... but it might force the Directors to pull V back down and out of the fight, blowing their 2nd of 3rd uses, just to keep their third use "on tap". After all, if V dies, V dies and they can't do much more with hir.

It's also possible V might use lethal force to defend against Belkar. If V has to think REAL fast and choose with no time to ponder it, .... if he had nothing tamer on tap for CC.... he might Disintegrate. Or other nuke.
I really doubt that's how Belkar's time will come.... but.... I've been surprised before. It might even give V another Heroic Blue Screen of Death once V realizes what V did.

[Shatteredtower]

...And here I thought bards and clerics actually had pretty good will saves. The baby passed for pity's sake!

Vampires can attempt to dominate one creature per round. It makes no sense to target a creature that offers nothing in terms of combat skills or valuable information.

Elan has a good base Will save, but he doesn't have the greatest Wisdom score and none of these characters are remotely optimized by 3E standards. As for the cleric, the nature of a saving throw was always subject to the luck of the die.

[Erys]

Double Plus Ungood

Orwell is spinning in his grave...

But I digress.

I knew this wouldn't be an easy fight, things are about to get exciting. And to think, this is likely not even the most climatic fight in this book.

[Fish]

It does feel strange that we cut back to the fight without any follow-up on the memory cliffhanger.

I think part of the reason the Domination happens now is that it allows Durkula — and the reader — to focus on the memory without having to keep track of whose turn it was in the combat.

[eilandesq]

Actually, it should be obvious why we didn't see Durkon's memory:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph...nPlanGuarantee

[majesticmoose]

It wasn't shown on-panel, but it would be sensible for [Belkar] to take Hilgya's Protection from Law instead of using his PoE amulet.

This. (In #1110, Hilgya offered Protection from Law to "everyone", and Roy agreed but turned down the spell for himself only, because it'd hurt him.)

We don't actually see Belkar get hit by a dispel. It's also possible that Hilgya gave him Protection From Law along with the others before she did it to Elan and Haley; it would explain why he didn't activate his clasp. So it's at least possible that, while he's technically dominated, Durkula and company wouldn't be able to make him do anything.

We don't see him not get hit by a dispel either; he's offscreen in panel 3 where it would have happened. I think it's more likely that his Protection from Law got dispelled offscreen than that his swirly eyes indicate being "technically successfully targeted by a domination attempt, whose effect is suppressed by an ongoing Protection from Law spell, so he is not actually controllable". Offhand, that seems like slightly too abstruse a rules detail to have the drama hinge on without having it explained previously. (Technically, it's possible that not only Belkar, but also Hilgya, Haley, and Elan are all still protected from control, because the Dispels happened to FWAK spells other than Protection from Law off all of them. Not likely.)

[BriarHobbit]

Why isn't Belkar's ring working? Wouldn't it restart after its effect got dispelled?

[deuterio12]

Why isn't Belkar's ring working? Wouldn't it restart after its effect got dispelled?

Belkar doesn't wear his ring all the time since it's Protection from Evil and thus hurts him like hell, we can even see he's surrounded by a yellow aura of good when he wears it. Belkar was trusting the mindblank to cover for him in this battle, the ring's probably in his pocket.

...

I guess by now there's some law that hobbits picking up magic rings will only put them on during emergencies.