OOTS #1122 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why Belkars ring stopped working is a bit of a mystery to me

It is an activated effect, and thus is possible to dispel it.

how 1 vampire can dominate so many so easily seems a bit of a stretch.

It is not one vampire. It is every vampire giving it a go.

GW

[Kish]

I will be very surprised if the IFCC ever uses any of their time holding Vaarsuvius' soul to help Vaarsuvius.

[Redgoblin]

I don't think that IFCC wants Hel's side to win.... they would probably like the Order to win today's fight.

Well the IFCC's stated goal is "And when the devils, daemons, and demons unite under our commission's logo someday, we will storm the gates of the Upper Planes and lay waste to all that is pure and holy.", and this would be a chance for them to immediately get all the evil aligned souls they are otherwise entitled to while ensuring that all the souls of the Dwarven people do not go to a good aligned plane. So I have to think they are with Hel on this one.

Also, if they want the world to be preserved, why did they want Roy to destroy the gate? They had to know the gods would destroy the world rather than let the Snarl out.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

A magic item has to be specifically chosen for a single-target dispel to be suppressed; area dispels only work on...well, spells. And owl's wisdom is only +4, so if a +6 is present it's almost certainly from a magic item (traditionally a +6 periapt of wisdom).

Ah, OK, so more of the same "every hero of this level must be a Christmas tree of magic objects because that is how me and my friends play" argument. Don't buy it for the +x to the saving throw, and don't buy it for the +x to wisdom either.

GW

[ThePhantasm]

So unless I am mistaken there are only four vampires left.

[hamishspence]

Bloodfeast is not a dinosaur-that-is-currently-kept-in-the-shape-of-a-lizard-through-magic. Bloodfeast is a lizard.

Polymorph and Baleful Polymorph transmute one thing into another. So there is no ongoing magical effect dispel magic to dispel or suppress.

Actually that only applies to Duration: Instantaneous.

Baleful Polymorph has Duration: Permanent.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverv...s.htm#duration

Permanent
The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

[D.One]

Are we sure she was the one casting searing light at Roy in 1093?

She's the best option, because there were three attacks, Daylight, Searing Light and Turn Undead, one for each of the Acolytes.

Rogo states he didn't prepare combat spells that day and Tinna states that she never does, so Minrah is the only one who would have been able to have cast Searing Light.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So unless I am mistaken there are only four vampires left.

I count at least five: Greg, Poncho & curly black hair at the back, and ponytail and short brown hair behind Roy (short brown hair survived V's fireball).

GW

[WindStruck]

I bet Durkon* went straight for Hilgya, perhaps a made-up bonus to dominating her specifically, since they had an intimate time together once or something...

Easiest way for Roy to shut this down might be to kamikaze the remaining cleric vampires to try and dust them. Buuut, even if that might work, the easiest way to avoid that is simply turning into mist again. I think their domination will still hold. So this still isn't good.

[ThePhantasm]

I count at least five: Greg, Poncho & curly black hair at the back, and ponytail and short brown hair behind Roy (short brown hair survived V's fireball).

GW

You're right, I missed the one behind Roy.

[Bluepaw]

Ooooh hoo hoo hoo, what a flawless horror story jump reveal. Beautifully, creepily done!

[nerdnumber1]

Belkar gets his protection from evil from a magic item item. Dispel magic in 3.5 can suppress the effect of a magic item for 1d4 rounds. Now he is seen to visibly activate the item (causing him some pain), so it's unclear if the protection will spring back immediately when the dispel wears off or if he'd have to deliberately reactivate it (which he wouldn't if dominated.

1d4 rounds of Belkar control is nothing to sneeze at, but normally a dominate lasts for days, so it could be a fun little surprise.



It doesn't look like Durkon has that many vampires left, so he might not have had enough dominates to hit the entire party. The strongest cleric in the group would have been a priority target for the undead if they had any higher level vampire with an especially high dominate DC (maybe Durkon has ability focus and stuff and buffs to improve dominate). Belkar and Haley have classes with worse will saves hence targeting them and I'm guessing Durkon judged Elan to have a poor wisdom. The non-uber cleric might be considered too hard for lower tier guys. Also, there is luck.

[Yendor]

I count at least five: Greg, Poncho & curly black hair at the back, and ponytail and short brown hair behind Roy (short brown hair survived V's fireball).

The one behind Roy isn't the one that dodged the fireball; they've got different boots. So six.

[hroþila]

I missed Ponchette's dominating eyes the first time around, as well as Durkon's in page 2 panel 2, so I was quite surprised to see half of them had been dominated because I thought it was all one single action by Durkon. I need to pay more attention.

So, anything Minrah and V can do about this?

[hamishspence]

The one behind Roy isn't the one that dodged the fireball; they've got different boots. So six.

"Ponytail" and "Short brown hair" were already being referred to as different dwarves. "Ponytail" has short pale red hair.

[Kashem]

Hey, Roy finally got his ranged attack!

Also, his sword is known to be a two-handed sword, so it did take him 2 rounds to throw it twice, which I'm assuming is when everyone got dominated.
At this point, I'm really hoping that they convinced Hilgya to give V her wand of protection from law, as it would let V start un-dominating the party. Greg would have no chance if V is just 1 for 1 tying up his actions while Roy takes out the other Vamps.

I would have to hope that the Order planned for dealing with gazes after dispels. They knew they were walking into a den of Vampire Clerics after all. Both of those were SUPER PREDICTABLE moves, so it would be pretty moronic for them not to be prepared.
I think that personally, I'd try to make sure everyone had a method for freeing Elan, then he can always use his song of Freedom to try and mass-release other people.

Hilgya blowing her save doesn't really make a lot of sense for one reason: It was pretty dumb of him to TRY and dominate her. 4 out of 5 times that is going to waste an action at a pretty critical time.

[Jasdoif]

Belkar gets his protection from evil from a magic item item. Dispel magic in 3.5 can suppress the effect of a magic item for 1d4 rounds. Now he is seen to visibly activate the item (causing him some pain), so it's unclear if the protection will spring back immediately when the dispel wears off or if he'd have to deliberately reactivate it (which he wouldn't if dominated.

The typical fashion for such an item would be that the activated protection from evil effect works as if the spell was cast, and thus can be dispelled as normal for a spell; Belkar could certainly activate it again (you have to explicitly target a magic item with a single-target dispel to suppress it) if he wasn't dominated before he had the chance.

[Elkins]

Ooooh hoo hoo hoo, what a flawless horror story jump reveal. Beautifully, creepily done!

Rich does have some horror genre chops, doesn't he? It doesn't seem to be his favorite genre, but when the story calls for it, he can deliver. I thought the "huh...so what if Durkon wasn't actually researching the spell we thought he was..." reveal was really deftly done as well.

Something about the undead seems to bring it out in him. Both the Draketooth mummies and the revealed Vamp Malack were rocking some good creep factor back in the pyramid too, and while I never found Tsukiko's wights particularly effective that way myself, they did inspire him to try a couple of classic horror moves (complete with Wes Craven call-out and everything) way back when.

[hamishspence]

SRD states that:

Special Attacks: A vampire retains all the special attacks of the base creature and gains those described below. Saves have a DC of 10 + 1/2 vampire’s HD + vampire’s Cha modifier unless noted otherwise.

So, assuming Greg is 15th level, his Dominate DC is 17+Cha modifier, which means 19, maybe 20.

While charisma is usual for supernatural abilities:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...turalAbilities

Supernatural Abilities (Su)
Supernatural abilities are magical and go away in an antimagic field but are not subject to spell resistance, counterspells, or to being dispelled by dispel magic. Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise. Supernatural abilities may have a use limit or be usable at will, just like spell-like abilities. However, supernatural abilities do not provoke attacks of opportunity and never require Concentration checks. Unless otherwise noted, a supernatural ability has an effective caster level equal to the creature’s Hit Dice. The saving throw (if any) against a supernatural ability is:

10 + ½ the creature’s HD + the creature’s ability modifier (usually Charisma).

given that Durkon has a "terribly low Charisma" and Durkula's isn't going to be vastly higher, it might make sense to use his best casting stat instead. If The Giant allows vampires use their "best mental stat" for their powers, that would fix it a bit.

[hroþila]

"Ponytail" and "Short brown hair" were already being referred to as different dwarves. "Ponytail" has short pale red hair.

The vampire Yendor is referring to is neither Ponytail nor Short Brown Hair. Presumably, it's the rightmost vampire here, judging from his boots, belt and clothes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

"Ponytail" and "Short brown hair" were already being referred to as different dwarves. "Ponytail" has short pale red hair.

No, they are right. The second vampire behind Roy - the one I counted as a second appearance of the short brown hair one - has single-coloured boots, whilst the actual short-brown-haired vampire that dodged the fireball has two-colour boots (heel paler than the front), so they can't be the same vampire.

GW

[hamishspence]

No, they are right. The second vampire behind Roy - the one I counted as a second appearance of the short brown hair one - has single-coloured boots, whilst the actual short-brown-haired vampire that dodged the fireball has two-colour boots (heel paler than the front), so they can't be the same vampire.

I didn't even notice that there was a second vampire behind Roy on first viewing.

[KorvinStarmast]

And once again, Probability proves itself willing to sneak into a back alley and service Drama as would a copper-piece harlot.

Indeed.

Hoo boy. I do wonder how Roy will get out of this one. Does the domination end if the vampires are killed?

Yes, it generally does, though I suspect that's in the FAQ rather than in the rules that I can find. (Unless Giant has chosen for that not to apply, for the above cited reason. )

Not sure about the rules here but since you cannot hypnotize children or madmen then I can see why Kudzu is safe

Aah, wasn't aware of that, is that a RL thing or an in game thing?

Well, it looks like The High Priest of Hel knows them well enough to know that would work.

Well yeah, in Belkar's case, he's done it before at least twice ...

Commentary on Today's Strip, top to bottom.
Like the shadow effect on Minrah's face in the last panel.
Like V's fireball
Like Belkar's line "What? "No way, we should be going after the clerics!"
I think that there are two vamps behind Roy, so he can cleave them two and drop at least two dominates?

By the way, Thank You Giant; the pacing and action in this strip are both much appreciated.

[The MunchKING]

Bloodfeast is not a dinosaur-that-is-currently-kept-in-the-shape-of-a-lizard-through-magic. Bloodfeast is a lizard.

Polymorph and Baleful Polymorph transmute one thing into another. So there is no ongoing magical effect dispel magic to dispel or suppress.

Not true! Baleful Polymorph's duration is Permanent, meaning he IS a dinosaur being constantly held in check by magic forces that can be dispelled.

[Bob_McSurly]

Just when my heart falls for Hilgya, Durkon mind controls her! The only person who should be dominating Hilgya is me!

Maybe I should just go back to Jake (Malack).

Well, you are a high level prophetess. I'm sure there are lots of other cute dwarven clerics who would love to be dominated by you.

[Shining Wrath]

I did call it, that Braidella would be the first to die.
We have to assume that the vampires that could cast Greater Dispel Magic, did so. Therefore only Ponchella and Durkon^T have 13 cleric levels.

Put me down as surprised that Hilgya failed her Will save against the Dominating Gaze, while Minrah made hers.

[Mordokai]

Huh... I won't cast predictions on what will happen next... never been good with that. Maybe Order prepared for this eventuality, maybe they didn't. I would like to think they did, but me wanting it doesn't make it so. So yeah, lets wait and see.

But maybe this is a good time to show Belkar's fake character grow isn't so fake after all. Nale ordered him to kill his team mates some few hundreds comics back and Belkar was all too happy to oblige. Now, if memory serves, that was a lower level spell(I want to say Command, but I'm too lazy to check). Domination is a higher level and may not have that "won't do anything that target opposes to personally" clause(again, too lazy to check), but yeah...

What I'm saying, I guess... maybe our vampire, as well as Order itself and some readers at least are in for surprise.

[Turin_19]

It is an activated effect, and thus is possible to dispel it.



It is not one vampire. It is every vampire giving it a go.

GW

I don't really understand the rules, but every time Belkar activated the ring, he got a yellow light glowing around him causing him some kind of damage. Oddly , this hasn't been shown in this attack by the order.

I was thinking so far that Belkar had not activated his Protection from Evil at all, due to not taking any damage from it or not showing the same signs he showed before.


EDIT

Plus, in the comic where everyone is activating defenses, he's sayign 'cat's disgrace':

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html


EDIT 2:
Wouldn't it be preferrable for him, if possible, that Hylgia cast Protection from Law on him? If that happened, would it have a similar effect to that of Protection from Evil?

[Jasdoif]

Does the domination end if the vampires are killed?

Yes, it generally does, though I suspect that's in the FAQ rather than in the rules that I can find.

The FAQ suggests the opposite, in fact:

If a spellcaster dies after summoning a monster, does the monster continue to fight?
A summoned monster continues to carry out your last command as best it can, or it attacks your opponents (whoever they were when you died) failing that.

[Shining Wrath]

While charisma is usual for supernatural abilities:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbi...turalAbilities



given that Durkon has a "terribly low Charisma" and Durkula's isn't going to be vastly higher, it might make sense to use his best casting stat instead. If The Giant allows vampires use their "best mental stat" for their powers, that would fix it a bit.

Vampires get a +4 bonus over the base creature for Charisma, so +2 is +2. The Dominating Gaze works like a Dominate Spell with a caster level of 12, so presumably it uses the Vampire's "casting stat".