OOTS #1122 - The Discussion Thread

[Concept]

Oh dear...This would be the worst possible time for V to get spirited away by the IFCC.

Interesting, but they have designs on the gate. Hel's plans run completely counter to the IFCC.

[GeometryGuru]

Is Belkar not wearing his Protection from Evil thingy?

That has to be physically activated and since he is evil he only uses it at the most crucial moments. Like when Count Durkula attacked him at Godsmoot.

[rakkoon]

I love these back and forths

[Kashem]

For everyone wondering why there was a cutaway before the memory showed: Maybe they're still watching the 20 minutes of washing up before dinner...
(yes I know about speed of thought and all that, but I can foresee the first line of the next panel being something of the nature, "Finally, we can get down to the actual memory...")

So assuming that the Mind Blanks were either too high-level, or just didn't get dispelled, V is about to have a super-important move.
Alright, if I were the order, and I were in this situation, planning beforehand, what would I do?
I would put contingency spells on every PC to cast PoE on them if they got dominated. I would bet that within all of her riches, Haley had something that could work as the focus.
Barring that, I'd just keep Belkar and Haley out of it. They're a bigger liability to the fight than asset, unless you have repeated ability to un-dominate them.
Barring that, I would make sure Roy was hasted so he could dust the vamps that succeeded in dominating.

Really though, move-order is what is important now. "Un-mind-whammying" the next person in the order that can free someone else would be best. V frees Elan, Elan frees Haley, Hilgya frees herself, and then frees Belkar could set the whole process back to 0, with more vamps getting puffed by Roy in the process. Similarly, V frees Belkar, Belkar throws his clasp at Elan, Elan frees Haley, Hilgya frees herself could work. It pretty much just comes down to Haley being the end of the chain.

Not really sure though. There are definitely ways to deal with this situation.

Anyway, betting the next panel will be the memory, and that memory will be what actually fixes all of the "Mind-Whammy". That would be the best narrative.

[Kish]

More to the point, an item-cast first-level spell is easier, not harder, to dispel than a Hilgya-cast first-level spell.

I wonder how many people will post "why isn't Belkar immune to this? His ring*!" before the next strip is up.

*It's not even a ring.

[danelsan]

Aww, I was still kinda hoping that, when mas dispelling came, a certain lizard would be secretly around to return to full size...

[happycrow]

The gaze duplicates Dominate Person, not Dominate Monster. It couldn't work on Mr Scruffy anyway.

And when ordered to kill his companions, and the one in front of him to kill is Mr. Scruffy.....

[Jasdoif]

Interesting, but they have designs on the gate. Hel's plans run completely counter to the IFCC.

I dunno....the IFCC has interceded to ensure Roy destroyed Girard's Gate, Hel's plan to get the world destroyed would destroy Kraagor's Gate along with the world, and Hel's intent to displace the leadership of the Northern Pantheon in the next world would certainly tip the cosmic balance between Good and Evil.

[Sylian]

Hilga on her side probably started with 16 wisdom, put all of her class augments in that (19) and lets assume a +4 periapt of wisdom.

That gives us a base save of: Cleric 13: +8, a +3 resistance bonus on her cloak, +11, +6 wisdom, +17.

You seem to be assuming too much. For all we know, Hilgya has a Wisdom of 17, and no magical items aiding her (remember that Durkon had an Amulet of Natural Armor instead of). Do we even see her wearing an amulet (which could be non-magical for all we know) or a cloak? She could have a Will Save of just +11.

Also, look at panel 12. That other high level cleric (who might be level 12 or higher) is also dominating. It seems likely to me that she dominated two and Greg dominated two. I don't think it's too unlikely that Hilgya rolled a 1 on her save, anyway (5% chance). Elan likely has a Will save around +6-7 or so, so it doesn't seem all that unlikely that he failed as well. Haley's could potentially be as low as +3. Belkar does have a +3 Vest of Resistance, but he also has a Wisdom penalty and classes with poor will saves, so him getting dominated isn't all that unlikely either.

Also the little cleric only has to cast circle of protection from evil to win this.

It's a level 3 spell. It's fully possible that Minhra has run out of level 3 spells for today (she is implied to not be a high level cleric, after all), or that she never prepared it to begin with.

Roy's more Dracula than Durkon right now, what with all the impaling going on.

So should he be called "Roy the Impaler" from now on?

[Rogar Demonblud]

What did Durkon* learn about the Order of the Stick in that memory, from years before Durkon Classic joined them?

Absolutely nothing. The agreement is that the memory doesn't involve the Order at all.

What's happened is that the vampire has finally figured out that everything is diving for the Abyss and he needs a new game plan.

[KorvinStarmast]

Is Belkar not wearing his Protection from Evil thingy?

Apparently, those things don't prevent getting hit by dominate, but a prot from evil suppresses it.

Vampire may be an overpriced template for PCs ... But on a villain, that at-will dominate can wreak havoc.

Yeah.

Hoo boy. I do wonder how Roy will get out of this one. Does the domination end if the vampires are killed?

Apparently not.

Indeed. Yes, it generally does, though I suspect that's in the FAQ rather than in the rules that I can find. (Unless Giant has chosen for that not to apply, for the above cited reason. )

Obviously, I was mixing editions in my head; my "it generally does" is incorrect. The dominate lasts for quite a while even if the vampire is destroyed, per the rules.

The question would seem to be whether or not the death of the person that issued the telepathic order frees the dominated person from continuing to obey that order. The link continues after the order is given, but it is far from clear whether or not the death of the caster at one end of the link affects the victim at the other.

It would appear that the dominate instructions remain until a new save is made, or 12 days has elapsed.

Wow, that's powerful.

[greenfunkman]

Absolutely nothing. The agreement is that the memory doesn't involve the Order at all.

What's happened is that the vampire has finally figured out that everything is diving for the Abyss and he needs a new game plan.

I read it that the agreement was that none of the Order of the Stick would be IN the memory.

If Durkon* didn't learn something about the Order of the Stick, why did the Giant lead with 'I best not act on this information'?

[KorvinStarmast]

I read it that the agreement was that none of the Order of the Stick would be IN the memory.

If Durkon* didn't learn something about the Order of the Stick, why did the Giant lead with 'I best not act on this information'?

If you are referring to panel 1, I suspect that Durkula is referring to all of what he has harvested from Durkon's memories up to this point, which he might have deemed useful in figuring out how to fight Roy and his team. I don't think that remark refers to what memory Durkon is about to show him in re his mom and the kitchen. (at least I didn't take it that way).

[Jasdoif]

Wow, that's powerful.

Yes. Kind of why having it at-will is rated so highly; a vampire only needs to spend some time to get someone else to do just about any non-suicidal task for them. The out-of-combat potential is staggering....

[Fyraltari]

Ah, crap. Now, does HPoH understand his targets well enough to avoid triggering the "against their nature" clause of domination?

Nope. He thinks everybody is who they were at their worst remember? He thinks Belkar still cares foe absolutely no-one, V values magic above everything else n

2 if you assume the sidekick but its a stretch to assume all 4 of their dominate was effective with such low odds of success.
[...]
So at most there should be 2 people dominated, 4 is if every vampire remainign is activaly dominating instead of doing something else, and you'd kinda notice faster.

THere are half a dozen vampires left not just two. I could totally buy that the redhead fighter was the one who dominated Elan for example.

once again, why no one else does something is beyond me

Some of them are busy getting dominated, at least.

Also the little cleric only has to cast circle of protection from evil to win this.

20 gp and one internet say did not prepare it today.

I read it that the agreement was that none of the Order of the Stick would be IN the memory.

If Durkon* didn't learn something about the Order of the Stick, why did the Giant lead with 'I best not act on this information'?

Because that's the logical response to failing to predict their actions?

[Tuwr]

If I was in Durkula's shoes, the order I'd give Hilgya would be something like, "Attack the nearest Lawful Good person". That wouldn't go against her nature, I don't think.

If Durkon for some reason has been feeding him carefully edited memories (or, actually, unedited memories would do), it is very possible that Durkula might think "Hilgya, protect me from the OOTS gang!" is an order that would not go against her desires.

That would be funny.

[Kish]

If Durkon* didn't learn something about the Order of the Stick, why did the Giant lead with 'I best not act on this information'?

Neither those words nor a personal appearance of Rich are in the comic, so I'd suggest fewer assumptions.

If by that you mean, why did Greg say "We'll be better off if I ignore what I know about them and just fight like they were any other high-level party," Greg's reactions for the fight thus far hinged on assumptions which proved disastrously wrong for him: "They're just going to charge in without a plan," "Vaarsuvius will be unprotected and their sole source of significant offensive output," "They have no cleric anywhere close to our level." No reference to the memory Durkon is currently showing him is implied.

[Roland Itiative]

I'm assuming V will get whisked away by the IFCC now, just for the sake of protecting their toy. Because otherwise, he's in very real danger now

[AutomatedTeller]

I should say that this is a great comic. I mean, the entire fight so far has been pretty awesome, but multiple twists in this one - all the dispells, then roy surprising durkon with the sword return thing and then "whoops!! Swirly eyes!!"

very enjoyable. You know a story is great when you A) know the heroes are in mighty trouble B) they are going to get out of it because plot and C) you are still on the edge of your seat, cause you don't really know how.

[Ruck]

I'm assuming V will get whisked away by the IFCC now, just for the sake of protecting their toy. Because otherwise, he's in very real danger now

This is something I've been thinking about-- if the IFCC uses one of their chits on Vaarsuvius, it won't be to throw the fight to the vampires; it'll be to protect V from being killed by them.

[jokem]

I have not read all of the posts, so maybe someone has already addressed this.

Didn't V also have a quickened Fireball? Or was that already cast?

If not then we ought to have another one coming.

[hroþila]

I'm assuming V will get whisked away by the IFCC now, just for the sake of protecting their toy. Because otherwise, he's in very real danger now

If they take V away, Roy and Minrah are likely done for, and V can later go back to a hall full of hostile vampires and no allies. Bad idea if they want to protect their toy.

[jokem]

But is Belkar still Chaotic Evil? He seems to be undergoing some significant character changes. He cares about Durkon and the others...

Also do we have any sourcebooks that describe the mechanical effects of Roy's weapon bond or is it Giant homebrew?

I agree, it seems like he is moving toward Chaotic Neutral, at least IMHO.

[Seward]

I have not read all of the posts, so maybe someone has already addressed this.

Didn't V also have a quickened Fireball? Or was that already cast?

If not then we ought to have another one coming.

Quickened Fireball is a level 7 spell. It might have been one of the spells drained by the level loss after the forcecage went down (restoration restores level loss but not the one spell you lose per level drained, from highest level first).

V is likely limited to level 6 or even level 5 max spells right now, due to high level slot drain. Even if V still has L7 slots left, V might have chosen to sacrifice the fireball in favor of saving something else, since V knew that the opposition would be fire resistant for the forseeable future.

[D.One]

Quickened Fireball is a level 7 spell. It might have been one of the spells drained by the level loss after the forcecage went down (restoration restores level loss but not the one spell you lose per level drained, from highest level first).

V is likely limited to level 6 or even level 5 max spells right now, due to high level slot drain. Even if V still has L7 slots left, V might have chosen to sacrifice the fireball in favor of saving something else, since V knew that the opposition would be fire resistant for the forseeable future.

Disintegrate is level 6... and great against undead.

[greenfunkman]

Neither those words nor a personal appearance of Rich are in the comic, so I'd suggest fewer assumptions.

If by that you mean, why did Greg say "We'll be better off if I ignore what I know about them and just fight like they were any other high-level party," Greg's reactions for the fight thus far hinged on assumptions which proved disastrously wrong for him: "They're just going to charge in without a plan," "Vaarsuvius will be unprotected and their sole source of significant offensive output," "They have no cleric anywhere close to our level." No reference to the memory Durkon is currently showing him is implied.

In the previous strip Durkon* says he will "Let you try your trick, knowing it's a trick, and that I should ignore it." Then 5 panels later, on the next page, after Durkon Classic shows him a memory he says "We'll be better off if I ignore what I know about them and just fight like they were any other high-level party".

The word choice of 'ignore' twice in such quick succession, bracketing the memory, implies a connection to me.

[Shining Wrath]

Apparently, those things don't prevent getting hit by dominate, but a prot from evil suppresses it.
Yeah.
Apparently not.
Obviously, I was mixing editions in my head; my "it generally does" is incorrect. The dominate lasts for quite a while even if the vampire is destroyed, per the rules.
It would appear that the dominate instructions remain until a new save is made, or 12 days has elapsed.

Wow, that's powerful.

The link you give is to one DM's opinions - those are not RAW. Also, even allowing for that, the RAW require a daily "refresh" of the control or a saving throw is granted. From SRD:

If you don’t spend at least 1 round concentrating on the spell each day, the subject receives a new saving throw to throw off the domination.

High level adventurers have at least some chance at saving.

I retain the opinion that we don't know what happens when the vampire dies. My Warblade was dominated by a vampire spawn a few years back, and the DM ruled that I was free when the Paladin destroyed the spawn with a good turning roll.

[commanderkoo]

Do you think Hilgya failed her Will save because clerics of Loki cast spells with their Charisma stat instead of Wisdom?

[Kish]

I think she just rolled badly, for my part.

Anyone fails a save on a natural 1. And as far as pure mechanics go, Roy should have a lower Will save than Elan and only marginally better than Haley's, so I'd say Rich is treating "I'm writing this character as strong/weak-willed" as more important than the pure D&D mechanics.

[Aquillion]

I think she just rolled badly, for my part.

Anyone fails a save on a natural 1. And as far as pure mechanics go, Roy should have a lower Will save than Elan and only marginally better than Haley's, so I'd say Rich is treating "I'm writing this character as strong/weak-willed" as more important than the pure D&D mechanics.

Dashing Swordsman has a weak Will save, so Elan's Will Save isn't as good as it would be if he'd stayed a pure Bard.