Who should play Roy in an OotS movie? And others.

[2D8HP]

...It's vary common in Hollywood for women to be cast at the same age as the characters they portray, while men are often cast 10-20 years older than the characters they portray. That explains why the average suggestions for Roy are often over a decade older than the average suggestions for Haley.

At one time I hoped this forum would be better than that, but if you've ever seen these threads before, you'd know this is very common here as well.

On the other hand, you can make this forum better suggesting, I don't know, maybe Nicole Kidman for Haley, if you see her fit for the role. Here, where you can express your ideas as everyone else, it's your call to make the world a better place (or at least conforming more to your definition of better).

For the record, Roy is four years older than Haley is three years older than Elan.

The woman I recommend for Haley was Katy Mixon who is 37. (The wiki has Haley listed at 25-26)



I didn't say that literally every person on this forum did this, I just said that it is very common in threads like this. And that's not an opinion, that's a fact: look at the average age of "Haley's" and the average age of "Roy's" on here and you'll see that one is much older than the other.

My main objection was with OP, who casted Roy at 36 years older than Haley and still said his choice for Haley was "too old".

Also you'll notice I never ascribed motivations to anyone. I never suggested why I thought people did this, I just pointed out that they did, and that I wished they didn't.

Edit: quick research: all the nominations for Roy prior to my comment were 40 or over except Ricky Whittle, Winston Duke, Donald Glover.

All of the suggestions for Haley (that weren't dismissed for being too old) were under 40 except Jessica Chastain.

And, again, I'm not ascribing motivations as to why this fact exists, I'm just pointing it out.

....It is a fact, not an opinion, that Hollywood casts older men than women.

It is a fact, not an opinion, that this forum follows this trend in "casting" threads.

Not once did I ever say that anyone in the forums or in Hollywood was sexist. I simply stated proveable facts. If you get offended by facts then you have a problem that I can't help you with.



Or, crazy idea, you could cast age-appropriate actors and have them portray their personality through -gasp- acting.

No.

Mostly because I just don't know "young Hollywood" that well, so I don't have any "age appropriate" picks.

I think it is a bit of a red herring to be comparing the age of suggested Roy actors to the age of suggested Hayley actors.

Roy IS older than Hayley. But more importantly, he is bald. Baldness is one of the most obvious signals of aging amongst males (up there with wrinkles and grey hair), so on the basis of his baldness alone Roy is likely to look older than he is, and thus an older actor is going to be less inappropriate for him.

From the class and level geekery thread, Elan appears to be closer in age to Hayley than Roy does.

Suggested actors for Hayley (and age)

• Allyson Hannigan (44)
• Jessica Chaistan (41)
• Karen Gillan (30)
• Katy Mixon (37)
• Scarlott Johansson (33)
• Jane Levy (28)
• Jessica Alba (37)
• Emma Stone (29)
• Isla Fisher (42)
• Allison Scagliotti (27)

As the guy who suggested Jessica Chastain for Haley, and was previously chastised because almost all of my picks were "too old" I now feel better about my pick, I was reducing the Haley to Roy age gap (that's the ticket)!, and I'll note that my pick of Idris Elba for Roy is almost exactly as many years older than my pick for Haley as the character of Roy is of Haley.

Hooray for me!

Suggested actors for Elan (and age)

• "Any good looking young actor" (I will use 30 here for what was meant by 'young')
• Owen Wilson (49)
• Nick Jonas (25)
• Liam Hemsworth (28)
• Chris Hemsworth (34)
• Zac Efron (30)
• Grant Gustin (28)
• Tom Felton (30)
• Ryan Reynolds (41)
• Lucas Till (27)

Okay, whomever said that "Owen Wilson is a better pick for Tarquin" was right, I was way off.

Indeed, Avery Brooks as Captain Sisko says what?

Captain Sisko is AWESOME!

I must be missing some context.

I assume it has something to do with shaving ones head (which Sisko didn't do the first season of Deep Space Nine), but I don't get the question.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I would absolutely agree with you here, except D&D certainly has anachronisms even at the best of times, and OotS specifically does even more so. Not to mention that in a high magic world, could always just have stuff like Goblin Dan's 7-Day Head Smoothing Ointment.

Absolutely no need to posit any kind of anachronism. We have had sharp razors for far longer than medieval times. The Egyptians of antiquity shaved their own heads, both men and women, from childhood onwards, on a daily basis. They did not require help, they were quite capable of attending to the matter individually with razors, depilatory creams, and even rubbing the hair off with a pumice stone.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

Absolutely no need to posit any kind of anachronism. We have had sharp razors for far longer than medieval times. The Egyptians of antiquity shaved their own heads, both men and women, from childhood onwards, on a daily basis. They did not require help, they were quite capable of attending to the matter individually with razors, depilatory creams, and even rubbing the hair off with a pumice stone.

Grey Wolf

Even better, then! I suspected that but wasn't sure.

[D.One]

Even better, then! I suspected that but wasn't sure.

And even without that, I'm certain Gillete's Great Hairdestroying Spell is a thing

[Kish]

I assume it has something to do with shaving ones head (which Sisko didn't do the first season of Deep Space Nine), but I don't get the question.

There was no Captain Sisko the first season of Deep Space Nine.

Commander/Captain Sisko did start shaving his head during the course of the series. It did not make him look older. That there were seasons before he started means that I can say with confidence that the head-shaved Brooks/Sisko didn't look noticeably older than the un-head-shaved version.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I can say with confidence that the head-shaved Brooks/Sisko didn't look noticeably older than the un-head-shaved version.

In fact, males with advanced male pattern baldness and/or advanced grey or white hair can look significantly younger by shaving their head, since a lot of the perception of male aging is based on the state of their hair.

GW

[Liquor Box]

I think it is a bit of a red herring to be comparing the age of suggested Roy actors to the age of suggested Hayley actors.

Roy IS older than Hayley. But more importantly, he is bald. Baldness is one of the most obvious signals of aging amongst males (up there with wrinkles and grey hair), so on the basis of his baldness alone Roy is likely to look older than he is, and thus an older actor is going to be less inappropriate for him.

From the class and level geekery thread, Elan appears to be closer in age to Hayley than Roy does.

Suggested actors for Hayley (and age)

• Allyson Hannigan (44)
• Jessica Chaistan (41)
• Karen Gillan (30)
• Katy Mixon (37)
• Scarlott Johansson (33)
• Jane Levy (28)
• Jessica Alba (37)
• Emma Stone (29)
• Isla Fisher (42)
• Allison Scagliotti (27)

Suggested actors for Elan (and age)

• "Any good looking young actor" (I will use 30 here for what was meant by 'young')
• Owen Wilson (49)
• Nick Jonas (25)
• Liam Hemsworth (28)
• Chris Hemsworth (34)
• Zac Efron (30)
• Grant Gustin (28)
• Tom Felton (30)
• Ryan Reynolds (41)
• Lucas Till (27)

So contrary to the tone of the commentary on actor ages, the average age suggested fro a Hayley actress is 35, about a decade older than the character. The average ages suggested for an Elan actor is 32, also about a decade older than the charactor.

I think there might be a little confirmation bias going on here - people are sure that others will be sexist with casting suggestions, and then uncritically leap to that when some old actors were suggested for Roy.

I thought I would do Roy as well, to see just how old people went.

• Samuel Jackson (69)
• Idris Elba (45)
• Will Smith (49)
• Dwayne Johnson (46)
• Ricky Whittle (36)
• Winston Duke (31)
• Terry Crews (49)
• Chiwetel Ejiofor (40)
• Donald Glover (34)
• Keegan-Michael Key (47)
• Mike Colter (41)

That is an average age of 44 years old (42 if you remove the heavy skew from Jackson). So the average age for a suggested Roy actor is 14 years older than the character, as oppose to 10 for Hayley and about 10 for Elan. Half of the difference arises from the inclusion of Samuel L Jackson.

As to the influence of Roy's baldness, Jasdoif's reference shows that he originally deliberately shaved his head in anticipation of male pattern baldness (so it is not clear whether he would now be bald anyway). However, I don't think it matters, whatever the canonical reality is, I think many posters perceive Roy as looking older than he is, in part because of his baldness. I note that 7/11 of the actors presented to play him are usually bald (whether by design or not), despite the fact that a long-haired actor could obviously shave his head. That suggests to me that there is some sort of association going on there.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe the small variation between how much older than their character the Roy actors are relative to the Hayley/Elan actors is just a coincidence of there being a lot of Roy-appropraite actors who are older.

I think either explanation is more likely than any implication that it is sexism (conscious or not) that caused Roy actors to diverge from the character age by a relatively small amount more than the Hayley actors. Especially given that the Elan actors do not diverge from the characters age to a greater extent than the Hayley actors.

[Dr.Zero]

In addition to actually being older than the other human characters, Roy is very much the team dad. Casting an older character helps accentuate his character traits- weary sarcasm, level-headedness, responsibility- in a way that no character other than Durkon SHOULD have. Haley is only 4 biological years younger than Roy, but her character arc has been extremely focused on overcoming things from her childhood, insecurities, and childish character traits (untruthfulness, extreme secrecy, greed). We literally watched her mature, intellectually, during the run of OOtS. Casting an actress who is younger than Roy is fitting in this situation. Same with Elan. I would argue same with Vaarsuvius- his character (in elf years) is old enough to be married and have young kids, but NOT old enough to realize it's a piss-poor decision to run off and leave them alone for a protracted period of time.

This. Roy was, for a very long time, the only sane man of the team (or very close to be). Seeing one party member rolling eyes while he deals with the antics of the other party members works better if the aforementioned one who rolls eyes is more mature than the others.

I may be shallow of me, but it does bother me if an actor looks different from how I think of a character as looking.

That's why I think you need a big guy with obvious muscles to play Roy. I'd rather someone in their 40s with the right build (like Dwayne Johnson) than a guy about the right age, whose of average size and spent a few weeks in the gym for the role.

And this, too.

[Dr.Zero]

Belkar - Jim Gaffigan, except during combat when he's inexplicably played by a sexy shoeless Jason Statham

Only when he kicks asses? Come on, Statham in the Crank series is Belkar!

[knag]

Only when he kicks asses? Come on, Statham in the Crank series is Belkar!

I feel like Belkar is primarily a wise-ass, who only incidentally kicks ass. Also, as a halfling, he should be fat like Gaffigan. But maybe I'm too stuck in Tolkienesque halflings aesthetics.

I haven't seen Crank, but now I think I have to.

[Ionathus]

Reading through this thread, what strikes me is that casting roles for 20-somethings is HARD. Actors often don't have established careers in their twenties, and those that do were often child stars who are seen as harder to take seriously ("ugh, I don't want to see the August Rush kid AGAIN").

We cast actors in roles too young for them all the time (Jennifer Lawrence was late-20s as a 16 year-old Katniss Everdeen, right?) I figure it's okay to give ourselves a little flex in the casting -- 30s or even 40s shouldn't be out of the question, depending on the actor/character in question.

As for the unfortunate age double-standard in Hollywood, I try to treat it like the Bechdel Test. It doesn't give much useful information for a single film, but when you keep it in mind it'll help you notice troublesome trends. Not much use getting at each others' throats over a single casting, but hopefully our awareness will improve the conversation.

As for casting, I don't have any fresh new ideas to add to the conversation but there are a couple suggestions I want to vehemently second:

Keegan-Michael Key is pretty much my exact mental image of Roy, though I feel he'd need to be a bit more buff. After seeing him in Don't Think Twice, though, I have complete faith in his chops.

Carey Elwes would make an excellent, charming-but-sadistic Tarquin. His villainous breakdown would be a sight to behold, I think.

Redcloak is currently the most compelling character for me, and I would love to see David Tennant do him justice.

And finally, seeing Sam Rockwell suggested for Belkar has really struck a chord with me. Can't explain it but it's stuck in my head now.

[Peelee]

Reading through this thread, what strikes me is that casting roles for 20-somethings is HARD.

It's not. Your premise is bad because you based it on bad data.

There is no shortage of young, talented actors. Casting agents can find them easily. This thread has an inherently different premise that the person in charge of actual casting has, though. It's asking what actors the readers think could play a role. I'd wager that very close to none of the people who responded actually work in Hollywood, and that they're mostly lay people who are naming actors they're familiar with. Which are likely to be older, as they've been in enough things to get famous enough to be name-dropped in a thread like this.

If you asked a hundred people on the street to name a planet that they think may have life, and all the people name planets, chances are you won't get one outside of the Solar System, even though that has only 8 planets out of.... well, a helluva lot more than 8. That doesn't mean that we won't be able to find a planet that may have life, that means that the people asked suck at biological cosmology.

[Ionathus]

It's not. Your premise is bad because you based it on bad data.

There is no shortage of young, talented actors. Casting agents can find them easily. This thread has an inherently different premise that the person in charge of actual casting has, though. It's asking what actors the readers think could play a role. I'd wager that very close to none of the people who responded actually work in Hollywood, and that they're mostly lay people who are naming actors they're familiar with. Which are likely to be older, as they've been in enough things to get famous enough to be name-dropped in a thread like this.

If you asked a hundred people on the street to name a planet that they think may have life, and all the people name planets, chances are you won't get one outside of the Solar System, even though that has only 8 planets out of.... well, a helluva lot more than 8. That doesn't mean that we won't be able to find a planet that may have life, that means that the people asked suck at biological cosmology.

Sorry, I actually agree with you on most of this -- I just phrased my original statement rather vaguely. I meant that, as laypeople, we're only likely to know established actors, and that doesn't always happen for an actor before their 30s. I felt that was implied but I could've been more clear.

[Ruck]

It's not. Your premise is bad because you based it on bad data.

There is no shortage of young, talented actors. Casting agents can find them easily. This thread has an inherently different premise that the person in charge of actual casting has, though. It's asking what actors the readers think could play a role. I'd wager that very close to none of the people who responded actually work in Hollywood, and that they're mostly lay people who are naming actors they're familiar with. Which are likely to be older, as they've been in enough things to get famous enough to be name-dropped in a thread like this.

If you asked a hundred people on the street to name a planet that they think may have life, and all the people name planets, chances are you won't get one outside of the Solar System, even though that has only 8 planets out of.... well, a helluva lot more than 8. That doesn't mean that we won't be able to find a planet that may have life, that means that the people asked suck at biological cosmology.

I mean, I think you're being uncharitable here. Of course it's not hard for casting directors to cast actors to play 20-something. It is hard for fans of a work with no professional credits to cast 20-somethings for these roles while also trying to cast enough star power that they feel the roles deserve. Which is what we are.

[AstralFire]

Roy: Michael B. Jordan. I think his face is dead-on perfect for Roy's and he's got the acting range for it, easy. Proven that a thousand times over. Shave his head and he's got this.
Elan: Michael Cera. Normally known for a different kind of awkward, Michael Cera still has the raw charisma (easily) for Elan, and is very good at being oblivious. A hair style and dye and some toning work covers this easily.
Haley: Milana Vayntrub. A little outside of her roles so far, but she's got a great sense of facial comedy which is what is most essential. Meets the physical characteristics mentioned earlier (re: body shape, and staying close to her costars in age). A little red hair dye.
Vaarsuvius: Jamie Clayton. The problems with Sense8 were not in its cast, and she's older than most of the casting here, which works perfectly for Vaarsuvius. I don't think Vaarsuvius is a very challenging role to play usually since they're generally low affect and low impact, and she's definitely displayed the range for their apex scenes.
Belkar: Jason Acuña. I don't know about his general acting range, but his default voice is very close to what I'd imagine for Belkar, and he rose to fame basically doing something I could see Belkar doing. He also actually has dwarfism, which -- while not strictly necessary for a casting thread, given how few of such actors are actually known to the layman -- I think is a great plus.
Durkon: Rory McCann. In his prior roles, McCann has shown a talent for making the most out of a role that calls for a heavily lean on a single emotion, and I'm confident that he can do the same here, as well as portray Durkon's torment in his nadir. Fairly swarthy for a Scot, he looks great with a beard and -- like V -- is from an older race that lets him get away with an older appearance. Trick photography would obviously be necessary.

I would point out that being built like a football player or the Rock isn't necessary how someone really strong must be built. The strength that is appropriate to someone who fights in practical scenarios is different from other professions. Floyd Mayweather never had the incredibly imposing build of Dwayne Johnson in the WWE, and UFC fighters likewise tend to be slimmer than boxers. Bodybuilders only build for a few particular kinds of strength, and while most professions that use strength appreciate additional mass, American football grossly overvalues it compared to others.

My casting centers the party around very early 30s (most are around 30 or 31) which I think is an entirely believable age range for the Order, and there shouldn't be too much of a "Dawson Casting" effect from treating them like mid-20s instead.

[Liquor Box]

I would point out that being built like a football player or the Rock isn't necessary how someone really strong must be built. The strength that is appropriate to someone who fights in practical scenarios is different from other professions. Floyd Mayweather never had the incredibly imposing build of Dwayne Johnson in the WWE, and UFC fighters likewise tend to be slimmer than boxers. Bodybuilders only build for a few particular kinds of strength, and while most professions that use strength appreciate additional mass, American football grossly overvalues it compared to others.

Floyd Mayweather is in a different weight class to Dwayne Johnson. If he was to fight someone of Johnson's size (like Wilder, Parker or Joshua) who was also a skilled fighter, they would certainly be much stronger than him, and would almost certainly beat him.
Same with UFC fighters, they are in weight classes, and if the smaller guys fought the bigger guys, the bigger guys would win. Rugby is a sport which is similar in some ways to American Football, and in that sport you have big guys in the positions where strength matters.

Anyway, we know from the class geekery thread that Roy is exceptionally strong. To have that sort of strength you are going to need to be a big guy.

[Ruck]

Michael B. Jordan was a thought that intrigued me, except I don't really go to the movies anymore so I don't have anything to say about how his performances in Creed or Black Panther would inform his fitness for the role.

I don't think Michael Cera is right for Elan at all, though. Elan's oblivious, not awkward. And he's better-looking than Cera.

Edit: Milana Vayntrub as Haley is interesting. I haven't seen This Is Us, but I liked her in Other Space. I just don't think that was a role that much informs her ability to play Haley, and I haven't seen enough of her otherwise to get a better handle on whether she's right for the role.

[Dr.Zero]

Anyway, we know from the class geekery thread that Roy is exceptionally strong. To have that sort of strength you are going to need to be a big guy.

So strong, I'd like to add, to be used as a human wharf, keeping still a rope with nonchalance, a task which required two persons using apparently their full strength. To make a scene like that at least vaguely believable on screen I expect the guy to be massive (literally, since mass there is as much important as strength) and with some incredible bulging muscles.

[Liquor Box]

Michael B. Jordan was a thought that intrigued me, except I don't really go to the movies anymore so I don't have anything to say about how his performances in Creed or Black Panther would inform his fitness for the role.

I preferred the suggestion that someone else made from Black Panther - they guy who was the leader of the outcast tribe, who challenged for the leadership early.

[One Step Two]

Just chiming in for a pure sense of delicious irony: I want Elijah Woods to play Belkar. Otherwise, Daniel Radcliffe.

[georgie_leech]

Just chiming in for a pure sense of delicious irony: I want Elijah Woods to play Belkar. Otherwise, Daniel Radcliffe.

I have it on good authority that DR can manage being a homicidal maniac.

[Ruck]

Just chiming in for a pure sense of delicious irony: I want Elijah Woods to play Belkar. Otherwise, Daniel Radcliffe.

Elijah Wood made me think of Wilfred, which made me think of Australia, which made me think of Jim Jefferies, which is ridiculous, but now I kinda want Belkar to have an Australian accent.

[RossN]

Reading this it's kind of interesting how differently people picture the characters.

A lot of people have brought up Roy's maturity, but for me, maybe because the strongest impression I get is him arguing with his father I tend to skew his age fairly young, maybe even below his canonical age. I suppose I tend to see him less in terms of a team dad or even a grizzled veteran (though he probably is by now) and more like a very, very serious student who has mastered his warrior craft and is now making his way in a more chaotic world that often frustrates him - more like Leonardo of Ninja Turtles fame. Likewise because I always saw his baldness as a shaved head I never thought of him as 'old'.

My go to mental image for Roy would probably be J. August Richards in his Angel days but Donald Glover is an excellent idea and he could well pull off the wittier, charismatic side of Roy.

Regarding strength and size I'm a bit wary of applying total real life physics to the casting, partly because we'd then have to pretty much cut out anyone who isn't professional wrestler size and build. Also we'd have to apply the same logic to the others - a maximum Dexterity Haley would probably not have a scrap of spare fat on her in favour of lean muscle, definitely ruling out the likes of Scarlett Johansson or Isla Fisher or really anyone 'curvy' no matter what the canon says.

[martianmister]

I can't picture Roy as an overly muscled guy. It just doesn't suit him in my eyes. My choice for Roy is Anthony Mackie.

[Fyraltari]

So strong, I'd like to add, to be used as a human wharf, keeping still a rope with nonchalance, a task which required two persons using apparently their full strength. To make a scene like that at least vaguely believable on screen I expect the guy to be massive (literally, since mass there is as much important as strength) and with some incredible bulging muscles.

That was thanks to his Belt of Giant Strength, not his natural strength

I have it on good authority that DR can manage being a homicidal maniac.

Elijah Wood isn't half bad either:

[Peelee]

That was thanks to his Belt of Giant Strength, not his natural strength

Imean, even without the belt, Roy's strength is nothing to sneeze at.

[Fyraltari]

Imean, even without the belt, Roy's strength is nothing to sneeze at.

Yeah, so you need a decently muscled actor but not necessarily a mountain of muscles.

[Kish]

Imean, even without the belt, Roy's strength is nothing to sneeze at.

Indeed, what? This isn't 5ed. The belt gives Roy either +4 or +6 strength; he has the vast majority of his strength without it.

[Fyraltari]

Indeed, what? This isn't 5ed. The belt gives Roy either +4 or +6 strength; he has the vast majority of his strength without it.

Ah, well I never played D&D. When Belkar said that Roy's strength was the same asthat of a giant I assumed that was mostly the belt (because of the name).

[Peelee]

Ah, well I never played D&D. When Belkar said that Roy's strength was the same asthat of a giant I assumed that was mostly the belt (because of the name).

Ah, I getcha. Yeah, the Belt of Giant Strength certainly helps bump his strength up, don't get me wrong, but it was already far above what most people had to begin with. His Strength score is pegged at 29 by C&LG, so if we assume the least favorable strength and give him a +6 Belt of Giant Strength, that means he still has a 23 native Strength score. There's no rules on what a person looks like based on their scores, but if a guy who has +6* modifier to Str doesn't look more like Terry Crews than Donald Glover, something's a bit off.

*You haven't played D&D, so this can be confusing. The +6 Belt gives a +6 to the base Strength score, but the +6 modifier is the number he gets to add to his die rolls when he rolls Strength checks. The belt only adds +3 to his modifier, assuming it's a +6 Belt. Or +2 to his modifier if it's a +4 belt.

There, now you're even more confused.