Schlock Mercenary VIII: insAIne in the mAInfrAIme

[Grim Portent]

We're kind of at an awkward spot as it is regarding the mass extinctions and exposition. It's pretty clear it's the Pa'anuri that have been wiping out galactic civilisations, we know how to kill them and we know where they live and that they consider baryonic life a nuisance to be exterminated and have had no hints of internal factions of theirs that might disagree.

So all that's left as far as I can tell is the question of who made them in the first place. Oisri was a machine designed to create one, so it seems someone with a massive amount of energy to spare built a machine to create a dark matter monster and then inscribe an unfathomable amount of information about something into the ice they put around that machine, so presumably some ancient super powerful civilisation.

Unless these flashbacks tell us something about that, or at least hint that there's more to be learned then they seem rather pointless to me.

[factotum]

We're kind of at an awkward spot as it is regarding the mass extinctions and exposition. It's pretty clear it's the Pa'anuri that have been wiping out galactic civilisations

I'm not convinced it *is* clear that the Pa'anuri are behind these extinctions. Quite apart from anything else, if they have that sort of power, why haven't they used it already? Don't forget they spent something like 50,000 years working with the F'Sherl-Ganni--they could surely have destroyed galactic civilisation in the Milky Way at any point during that time, but they did not. My opinion is that they did not because they're not capable of it, and there's some other reason for the regular galactic annihilations.

[The Glyphstone]

Cause what this story needs in the second-to-last chapter is an EVEN BIGGER antagonistic force that has lacked any foreshadowing or buildup or story investment until now.

The only non-Paanuri candidate I can think of for the mass extinctions that wouldn't be something like that would be mass AI rebellion/insanity. We've had plenty of foreshadowing that AIs can turn murderous.

[zlefin]

long-time reader of the comic, haven't been in this forum section much.
reading through the chat here, I have to say that personally, I don't mind the oafans' wanting their stuff back legal argument. but I guess a lot of other people didn't like it.

[Knaight]

So all that's left as far as I can tell is the question of who made them in the first place. Oisri was a machine designed to create one, so it seems someone with a massive amount of energy to spare built a machine to create a dark matter monster and then inscribe an unfathomable amount of information about something into the ice they put around that machine, so presumably some ancient super powerful civilisation.

Why are we assuming that anybody made them at all? Baryonic life evolved multiple times in multiple places with a fair amount of variety, some of which can live in space. Why couldn't nonbaryonic life do the exact same thing?

[Onyavar]

Hm, if the Pa'anuri were oisri-built by the anti-uploading fanatics that were mentioned in the All-Star chapter, and then turned against their creators or if they are still their tools even, then the whole thing would be neatly tied.

But I think it's not that simple.

[Grim Portent]

Why are we assuming that anybody made them at all? Baryonic life evolved multiple times in multiple places with a fair amount of variety, some of which can live in space. Why couldn't nonbaryonic life do the exact same thing?

Because there being a machine made of baryonic matter designed to make a Pa'anuri indicates something odd about their genesis and hints at them being an artificial species. Doesn't mean all Pa'anuri came from devices like Oisri, but it'd seem very weird to have Petey mention it if it wasn't the intended implication.

[factotum]

Because there being a machine made of baryonic matter designed to make a Pa'anuri indicates something odd about their genesis and hints at them being an artificial species. Doesn't mean all Pa'anuri came from devices like Oisri, but it'd seem very weird to have Petey mention it if it wasn't the intended implication.

Alternative explanation: the machine for creating a Pa'anuri was built after first contact with them in order to try and study them in more detail? Not saying I necessarily believe that, mind, it's just a feasible explanation given the facts available.

[HouseRules]

Nice trivial accent. Yaeyoefui calls Haley Sorlie "HaleeSorlee".

[RowenMorland]

Maybe each powerful galactic civilisation has been driven to the same point as Petey and needed to create safe, tame, Pa'anuri; and that is where the entire population has come from. One or more for each failed attempt.

Things that fit with the Pa'anuri maybe not being the masterminds behind all this are that they somehow have an Andromeda core device and long guns despite that being 'impossible' for non-baryonic life without baryonic allies.

Also, wasn't the "50,000 years working with the F'Sherl-Ganni" a trick to get them to destroy themselves without initiating an extra galactic effort?

[factotum]

Also, wasn't the "50,000 years working with the F'Sherl-Ganni" a trick to get them to destroy themselves without initiating an extra galactic effort?

Maybe, but there have been many of these galactic extinction events, and it seems odd the Pa'anuri would only attempt to get the Milky Way people to destroy themselves on this one occasion rather than deploying their supposed galactic extinction power directly.

[Grim Portent]

Maybe, but there have been many of these galactic extinction events, and it seems odd the Pa'anuri would only attempt to get the Milky Way people to destroy themselves on this one occasion rather than deploying their supposed galactic extinction power directly.

If their method of wiping out all advanced life is to track down and blow up every annie plant in the galaxy along with ripping apart everything near them it would take them a long time each cycle and put them at risk of being hurt by terraport devices while attacking. After a certain point it would make sense for them to look for ways to deal with the matter permanently with minimal personal risks.

That and the Pa'anuri have been suppressing the development of advanced baryonic life in Andromeda, so it would make sense the ones that lived in the Milky Way used to do similar things.

[factotum]

If their method of wiping out all advanced life is to track down and blow up every annie plant in the galaxy along with ripping apart everything near them

I don't think that would be sufficient to completely annihilate a widespread galactic civilization--there are always going to be people who are in the middle of nowhere with no annie plants near enough to kill them. Not to mention that people will see what's happening and use alternatives, as we've already seen with Petey's cities--there are no annie plants in those any more, so how do they get destroyed?

[Grim Portent]

I don't think that would be sufficient to completely annihilate a widespread galactic civilization--there are always going to be people who are in the middle of nowhere with no annie plants near enough to kill them. Not to mention that people will see what's happening and use alternatives, as we've already seen with Petey's cities--there are no annie plants in those any more, so how do they get destroyed?

Hard to say. Eina-Afa was completely off the grid, a secret from everyone in addition to the Pa'anuri which indicates they thought being known to other baryonic life was a danger, so maybe they have some other way of finding places and then just ripping them apart with gravity or blowing up their stars, both things we know they can do.

There's also a problem with abandoning annie plants since they're the best mass producable power source. No annie plants means no terraporting, no space travel, no long range communications. It's basically hiding in a bunker until the Pa'anuri go away. Petey can get around it because he still has the core generator to provide obscene quantities of energy, but even for him it was still more efficient to use annie plants to power his cities and ships.

An actual galactic scale civilisation can only last so long without FTL, any worlds that aren't self sufficient or able to become so will die, any worlds that need the amounts of energy annie plants produce to maintain vital services will struggle. The species may survive in some manner, but it's likely to lose large numbers of worlds, have huge population decline and lose lots of information that wasn't stored somewhere that can survive a power outage.

[halfeye]

It seems to be a war to extinction with the Pa'anuri whether or not they are the general cause of the extinction cycles.

If they are not the cause of the general extinction cycles, that's a matter that can be thought about after they are eliminated.

[factotum]

The species may survive in some manner, but it's likely to lose large numbers of worlds, have huge population decline and lose lots of information that wasn't stored somewhere that can survive a power outage.

See, this is my problem with the scenario you're presenting. The galactic extinction that's being talked about in the comic appears to be a total one, where only occasional people who prepare in a particular way survive--e.g. the Oafans and the All-Star. There's no mention of random planetary survivors. Also, I'm pretty sure the Schlock universe has fusion capability, and fusion reactors would do just fine to power planets even if they're not good enough for starships.

[Onyavar]

An actual galactic scale civilisation can only last so long without FTL, any worlds that aren't self sufficient or able to become so will die, any worlds that need the amounts of energy annie plants produce to maintain vital services will struggle. The species may survive in some manner, but it's likely to lose large numbers of worlds, have huge population decline and lose lots of information that wasn't stored somewhere that can survive a power outage.

This. Was already the answer to...

See, this is my problem with the scenario you're presenting. The galactic extinction that's being talked about in the comic appears to be a total one, where only occasional people who prepare in a particular way survive--e.g. the Oafans and the All-Star. There's no mention of random planetary survivors. Also, I'm pretty sure the Schlock universe has fusion capability, and fusion reactors would do just fine to power planets even if they're not good enough for starships.

... if you read the four prologue comics. There is no mention of planetary survivors, because they are so far apart from each other, in time. The comic doesn't [if I read it correctly] describe a violent "extinction event", but a "vanishing event": Within a couple hundred years, the previously snowballing FTL-civs vanished. It seems they abandoned their planets and were gone - probably migrated to Dyson spheres, matriochka brains, all-stars or Buuthandis.
Or, they didn't hide, but couldn't survive without their hightech. And whenever they thought the danger was over, "so let's try stick our head out again", they got thumped. That would certainly explain the observations that the in-comic researchers presented to us readers.

Let's say that the Pa'anuri are targeting the UNS next and shoot up the spots where their sensors can spot the most annieplants. Even if the humans catch on, and stop using gravitic tech and teraport devices, so that they're no longer a target for the Pa'anuri - how long can humans uphold their civilization without gravitics and annieplants? They'd be thrown back to the tech level of our real world. If that bottleneck happens, it doesn't matter how many planets the UNS colonized, or how many billion immortal people live in cities on Earth. They'd be living in isolation again. Maybe several well-off outposts might survive for a couple thousand years. But even ONE million years? Not a chance. Unless we count stuff like Vog's people.

... Vog's people.

Who knows, maybe Schlock will actually play a plot role again, because someone remembers that the carbosilicate amorphs were originally data storage devices. Maaaybe there is still some data in his memory-structures that a clever bioscientist can recover to illustrate what happened to Vog's people.

[HouseRules]

Three non-hungry Amorphs? Or a Unioc that is very good with Xeno...history.

[Xanyo]

Weapons technology, hmm? Vog said they were just organic memory banks.

Hmmm...

[Rockphed]

Weapons technology, hmm? Vog said they were just organic memory banks.

Hmmm...

Well, considering how effective assassins and soldiers they make, I am not surprised people assume they were originally weapons. Also, not surprised that a unioc knows a little about them considering who was running Ganj Rho when the Toughs showed up.

[The Glyphstone]

That sounds like it could be an unofficial Maxim.

"The difference between information and a weapon is who you share it with and when."

[Silent Hunter]

Just saw today's edition and LOLed. While the deep world building is superb, let's face it, most of us are here because of Schlock.

(I've often wondered what Tayler thinks he sounds like)

[HouseRules]

That sounds like it could be an unofficial Maxim.

"The difference between information and a weapon is who you share it with and when."

Share a bullet by pulling the trigger is not a very nice way to share a weapon, but a possible interpretation of sharing the weapon.

[factotum]

Share a bullet by pulling the trigger is not a very nice way to share a weapon, but a possible interpretation of sharing the weapon.

Not really, no? A fired bullet is not, itself, a weapon--it's just a blob of llead and other metals. Depending what it hit you might not even be able to discern what its original shape was. You most certainly couldn't figure out how to build a gun just by looking at the bullet it fired.

[Lizard Lord]

Stabbing them with a weapon on the other hand....

[PraetorDragoon]

Just saw today's edition and LOLed. While the deep world building is superb, let's face it, most of us are here because of Schlock.

(I've often wondered what Tayler thinks he sounds like)

We aren't here for the Oafans, that is for sure.

[Willie the Duck]

Share a bullet by pulling the trigger is not a very nice way to share a weapon, but a possible interpretation of sharing the weapon.

Bullets seem to be a weapon poorly suited to the analogy. You might (dark-comedically) "share" a sword with someone by you keeping the handle end and giving them the pointy end. Firearm-bullets don't really work for that because... well, because you need both parts to make a full functional weapon.

"The difference between information and a weapon is who you share it with and when." in a less comedic interpretation of 'share' actually doesn't seem right. You share weapons (as in share the use of them) with your allies and share information in pretty much the same way (for mutual defense, as your goals align and alliance is strong). There might be differences in the fine-tuning, but overall, you do share them the same way. So it doesn't seem to me to be a difference, but instead a similarity.

Or maybe I am overthinking it.

[Ibrinar]

When I first read it in the thread I assumed it was about turning information into a weapon when you share it strategically (misinformation, blackmail, propaganda,political manipulation,…) so the discussion here confused me a bit at first.

[halfeye]

When I first read it in the thread I assumed it was about turning information into a weapon when you share it strategically (misinformation, blackmail, propaganda,political manipulation,…) so the discussion here confused me a bit at first.

Yeah, I think the comic was saying information is a weapon.

[The Glyphstone]

Yeah, I think the comic was saying information is a weapon.

That was the interpretation I had as well, hence the not-maxim. With sayings like 'loose lips sink ships', its already a maxim in our culture that the right information shared at the right (or wrong) can be dangerous or even lethal. And that's leaving out potentially literally lethal information like the memetic trigger that turned the Osiri Gavs into zombies.