OOTS #1124 - The Discussion Thread

[Ionathus]

this is nearly sig worthy.

We had a discussion about Domination in the strips from a few threads ago, ad the provisional conclusion was that domination continues after the vamp is destroyed. Do you have a place in the spell casting rules that I can look at? I am not expert at 3.5 D&D, so I am not sure where to look for that kind of rules text.

I feel like, all things being equal, this might be a place where Rich decides that story > rules. Once Greg and Ponchella are dead, I don't really think there's a good story/character reason for the other Order members to be dominated: it would just be a frustrating coda to the (likely highly-emotional) destruction of Greg. Domination dropping immediately lets them forgo the annoying "ugh, we have to keep Elan/Haley/Belkar/Hilgya contained for a few minutes while we figure out a way to snap them out of it."

The danger of their domination is right now, while their dominators are also present. Once that's resolved, it's just not worth the plot footwork vs. payout.

At least, that's how I feel the story's leaning. It could make for a good tale the other way, as well.

[Perficio]

Either you imply that Hel actually wants to be a minor and forgotten goddess without the ability to make clerics among the living... or I'm misreading your post....

No, I'm saying that there's little things that feel like it's building to a parallel, but I don't know what the parallel would be. Hel's very motivated to get some power (and no longer be effectively starving). She's got no reason to be a stoic self-sacrificing dwarf about anything. If a parallel happens, it won't be one of [refusing power and comfort and prestige], but [hard-working child trying to make parent happy only to find out that the parent actually wants something else, something so different that the child's efforts are in vain]. But what else could there be?

Edit: like, Sigdi never said she wanted healing, she repeatedly told Durkon she was fine as she was, and he took initiative to become a cleric. Hel told Durkula and others her plans. Is there anything Durkula took initiative to do that will actually sabotage what she's really after?

[Fyraltari]

No, I'm saying that there's little things that feel like it's building to a parallel, but I don't know what the parallel would be. Hel's very motivated to get some power (and no longer be effectively starving). She's got no reason to be a stoic self-sacrificing dwarf about anything. If a parallel happens, it won't be one of [refusing power and comfort and prestige], but [hard-working child trying to make parent happy only to find out that the parent actually wants something else, something so different that the child's efforts are in vain]. But what else could there be?

Edit: like, Sigdi never said she wanted healing, she repeatedly told Durkon she was fine as she was, and he took initiative to become a cleric. Hel told Durkula and others her plans. Is there anything Durkula took initiative to do that will actually sabotage what she's really after?

The way I see it Hel's and Lurkon's goal are compatible but not identical:

Hel wants revenge over Thor and Loki and power over the Northern Pantheon.

Greg wants revenge over the Dwarves, to make Roy suffer and generally speaking has a "myself before everyone else" attitude.

It just so happens that their plan fullfill all of those objectives but should this plan go badly (as it certainly will) and should another way to reach their objectives for either of them appear (I dunno, Hel trying to get control of the Snarl ; Lurkon deciding that if it's either Roy or the Dwarves dead he would rather have it be Roy) I can totally see them betraying each other.

[Dion]

Has someone figured out a timeline for the last few days in the strip?

What time of day is it? Day or night? Morning or evening? Is it Tuesday or Wednesday?

When did the vampire crew last pray and refresh their spell list?

How long ago was the godsmoot? How soon is the dwarven council meeting?

[Fyraltari]

Has someone figured out a timeline for the last few days in the strip?

What time of day is it? Day or night? Morning or evening? Is it Tuesday or Wednesday?

When did the vampire crew last pray and refresh their spell list?

How long ago was the godsmoot? How soon is the dwarven council meeting?

The order was set to arrive before midnight.

There is an ellipsis between 1099 and 1100, however Belkar's and Roy's dialog in the former imply it was a short one.

I am not sure how long it was since the Godsmoot, probably around a day to account for the fact that the Giants probably didn't just teleport on that pass.

So it probably goes like this:
Tuesday morning, Thor's Clerics prepare spells expecting a normal day.

Tuesday evening, Hel's crew prepare spells (at dusk) after attacking the temple, killing Sandstone and a good deal of Dwarves while Minrah & Co retreats inside.
They report to Hel who warns them of the Order's arrival.

Durkon leads them to the hall.

After midnight: the Order arrives to the temple.

We are into Wednesday morning by now (something around 1 AM, maybe?)

The meeting of Dwarven Bigwigs is scheduled to midmorning (9-10 AM?)

So the vampire's spells are fresher than than the good guys but said good guys will, a priori, get their own refresh before the meeting.

Though both sides had/will have had fought a battle right before and I hear there's a rule about not refreshing spells used less than eight hours before?

[Sloanzilla]

I'm betting Ponytail Dwarf makes it out of this situation. She's been in the last three pages right in the middle of the fight. She has a uniform like Minra's, but I haven't seen her cast any spells.

I think Ponytail Dwarf is fulfilling an important role of "last remaining mook and therefore useful to show that combat is ongoing in a way that is of no risk to any major characters on either side."

[Emanick]

I think Ponytail Dwarf is fulfilling an important role of "last remaining mook and therefore useful to show that combat is ongoing in a way that is of no risk to any major characters on either side."

Curly-haired cleric in blue robes (next-to-last panel of #1122) is still "alive" and probably qualifies as a mook; she hasn't had any lines IIRC.

The mook who dodges the Fireball in panel 6 of 1122 might also be alive. I can't see how she could have died since then, unless maybe Minrah killed her off-panel.

[brian 333]

Curly-haired cleric in blue robes (next-to-last panel of #1122) is still "alive" and probably qualifies as a mook; she hasn't had any lines IIRC.

The mook who dodges the Fireball in panel 6 of 1122 might also be alive. I can't see how she could have died since then, unless maybe Minrah killed her off-panel.

That's ponytail dwarf. Probably a fighter with a lot of Con.

[Emanick]

That's ponytail dwarf. Probably a fighter with a lot of Con.

No, I'm talking about the one with dark brown hair and an iron cap (the one who dodges to the left when V Fireballs in panel 6 of 1122), not the one with orange hair. I'm not even sure I got her gender right; she's hard to see and I haven't been able to find her on any other page.

Edit: Looking at the page for the umpteenth time, it's possible that that is Ponytail Dwarf, but if so the hair color is very different in panels 6 and 9 and the hair is parted in panel 9 but not 6. Additionally, if they're the same person, you'd expect the ponytail to show up in panel 6, given the fact that both dwarves are being drawn at similar angles.

[Kish]

There's no such thing as a vampire or vampire spawn with any Constitution rating other than -.

[Ionathus]

There's no such thing as a vampire or vampire spawn with any Constitution rating other than -.

Okay then, a spawn with the vampire equivalent of a lot of CON, does that work? Some vamps can be beefier than others, right?

Granted, I don't have any experience with 3.5e and the "doesn't have a CON score" situation.

[factotum]

Okay then, a spawn with the vampire equivalent of a lot of CON, does that work? Some vamps can be beefier than others, right?

Well, they could potentially roll better on their d12 hit dice if that's what you mean?

[woweedd]

Okay then, a spawn with the vampire equivalent of a lot of CON, does that work? Some vamps can be beefier than others, right?

Granted, I don't have any experience with 3.5e and the "doesn't have a CON score" situation.

A vampire's HP comes from its hit dice, which are 12 times its level. The only other thing that CON determines is Fortitude save, and, since undead are immune to Fortitude effects, that's a moot point. They don't have any Constitution.

[Kish]

Indeed, "Probably a fighter" doesn't matter either--her hit dice are d12 now whether she's a barbarian or a sorcerer.

If she's an actual vampire rather than a vampire spawn, her level matters to how many hit points she can have, nothing else. If she's a vampire spawn then nothing about her previous life affects her stats now.

[Goblin_Priest]

A vampire's HP comes from its hit dice, which are 12 times its level. The only other thing that CON determines is Fortitude save, and, since undead are immune to Fortitude effects, that's a moot point. They don't have any Constitution.

Immune to most things.

Desintegrate is especially nasty against the undead, because it can affect them, and they lack a CON bonus to their fort save and they have a weak fort save progression.

[zimmerwald1915]

Immune to most things.

Specifically, they're immune to spells which target Fort and do not work on objects. Disintegrate works on objects.

But it doesn't matter, as the only one who can cast it is out of the fight, and it turns out a thrown weapon of legacy works just as well if not better.

[Rrmcklin]

It just so happens that their plan fullfill all of those objectives but should this plan go badly (as it certainly will) and should another way to reach their objectives for either of them appear (I dunno, Hel trying to get control of the Snarl ; Lurkon deciding that if it's either Roy or the Dwarves dead he would rather have it be Roy) I can totally see them betraying each other.

That goes against "Lurkon's" established character. His devotion to Hel hasn't been portrayed as happening to coincide with his goals, it's been portrayed as every bit as sincere and fanatical as Durkon's was to Thor. Push comes to shove, fulfilling Hel's goals comes before killing Roy and his own personal wants, based on everything we've seen of the character.

[Goblin_Priest]

That goes against "Lurkon's" established character. His devotion to Hel hasn't been portrayed as happening to coincide with his goals, it's been portrayed as every bit as sincere and fanatical as Durkon's was to Thor. Push comes to shove, fulfilling Hel's goals comes before killing Roy and his own personal wants, based on everything we've seen of the character.

I'm not sure. While I agree with your premise on his devotion to Hel, he has been pretty vain and obsessed with Roy, and I don't think him placing his own petty grudge above his higher mission would be completely against his character. I believe that we have seen multiple occasions where he puts his mission in peril just to get back at Roy (ex: he taunted Roy with his location), or otherwise be happy about such events (ex: he was delighted about the public reveal in front of Roy about the Orb).

[Goblin_Priest]

Specifically, they're immune to spells which target Fort and do not work on objects. Disintegrate works on objects.

But it doesn't matter, as the only one who can cast it is out of the fight, and it turns out a thrown weapon of legacy works just as well if not better.

Sure, but it only takes one of many things for that desintegrator beam to come back online: 1) breaking Elan's domination so he can heal V, 2) Minrah successfully landing a heal, 3) breaking Hylgia's domination so she can heal V, 4) force feeding a healing potion to V.

And probably other stuff.

V ain't dead, usually doesn't take much to get a downed character back up.

[Keltest]

I'm not sure. While I agree with your premise on his devotion to Hel, he has been pretty vain and obsessed with Roy, and I don't think him placing his own petty grudge above his higher mission would be completely against his character. I believe that we have seen multiple occasions where he puts his mission in peril just to get back at Roy (ex: he taunted Roy with his location), or otherwise be happy about such events (ex: he was delighted about the public reveal in front of Roy about the Orb).

This is true, but I think that's more because of Greg's arrogance rather than a loose loyalty to Hel. He legitimately believes that he has the ability to pursue both Hel's agenda and his own to completion. If Roy hopped back on the Mechane and flew off somewhere, Greg might try to hunt him down, maybe, if it was feasible to do so, but he definitely wouldn't abandon Hel's plan to do so.

[zimmerwald1915]

V ain't dead

That's a shame.

[The MunchKING]

[Goblin_Priest]

This is true, but I think that's more because of Greg's arrogance rather than a loose loyalty to Hel. He legitimately believes that he has the ability to pursue both Hel's agenda and his own to completion. If Roy hopped back on the Mechane and flew off somewhere, Greg might try to hunt him down, maybe, if it was feasible to do so, but he definitely wouldn't abandon Hel's plan to do so.

Well, there's always self-justification. "I can afford to abandon my quest for my selfish desire because I have put spawns in place to continue the job and thus I am not abandoning my quest by pursuinig myselfish desires". I mean, that's kinda what he's doing now, no? He sent others to go dominate the council, while he's just gleefully starting a fight with Roy.

I don't think Durkon would put him own desires before anyone else's, especially Thor's. I don't think that would apply to Durkon*. If he's Durkon on his worst day... well, he did swear against all he believed in, then, no? Thus Durkon*'s devotion to Hel could really not be all that strong at all. It does largely seem to me like he follows Hel because Hel has a plan to hurt the dwarves, which just happens to be exactly what he wants to do. And not because he's fanatically loyal to Hel herself or anything else she stands for.

I don't think Durkon* will suddenly go "you know what, I follow Nergall now", or "screw Hel's plan, I'll just go drink tea instead". I do think he has some legitimate loyalty towards her. But in the end... I do suspect his loyalty is to himself first and foremost, or at least that his vanity and arrogance are stronger than his loyalty. He wants to hurt Roy more than anything in the world, it seems.

[Keltest]

Well, there's always self-justification. "I can afford to abandon my quest for my selfish desire because I have put spawns in place to continue the job and thus I am not abandoning my quest by pursuinig myselfish desires". I mean, that's kinda what he's doing now, no? He sent others to go dominate the council, while he's just gleefully starting a fight with Roy.

I don't think Durkon would put him own desires before anyone else's, especially Thor's. I don't think that would apply to Durkon*. If he's Durkon on his worst day... well, he did swear against all he believed in, then, no? Thus Durkon*'s devotion to Hel could really not be all that strong at all. It does largely seem to me like he follows Hel because Hel has a plan to hurt the dwarves, which just happens to be exactly what he wants to do. And not because he's fanatically loyal to Hel herself or anything else she stands for.

I don't think Durkon* will suddenly go "you know what, I follow Nergall now", or "screw Hel's plan, I'll just go drink tea instead". I do think he has some legitimate loyalty towards her. But in the end... I do suspect his loyalty is to himself first and foremost, or at least that his vanity and arrogance are stronger than his loyalty. He wants to hurt Roy more than anything in the world, it seems.

I don't think Greg is particularly disloyal, or primarily loyal to himself. What I think he is, like I said, is arrogant to the extreme. He legitimately believes he can juggle all of these things and have everything land upright. So he's going to try and do just that, because why shouldn't he? Everybody important gets what they want, right? Its been pretty consistent that he isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is, or as in control of things. Its almost definitely going to be his downfall that he tries to go after Roy and the Order in a personal manner instead of just dropping a tunnel on them and stalling them while he rigs the vote.

[Kish]

If we're talking about Greg betraying Hel, I think "Forget it."

If we're talking about Greg endangering his plans due to being tempted by a chance to indulge sadism or bloodthirst, on the other hand, I think we've seen that already, multiple times.

[Manty5]

Even the Ex-Exarch paused for a loophole snack when he should have been getting the Orb.

[KorvinStarmast]

That's a shame.

If you find yourself getting all worked up about a fictional comic book character, you might need to take another look at what's important in your life.

And while I'm at it: Han shot first!

[zimmerwald1915]

worked up

That's a bit much. Wistful and fatalistic, maybe.

[Kish]

Also, Han did not shoot first.

What's this "first" business? Only one person shot in the scene under discussion. Obviously. For both to shoot, the first one to shoot would have to be unable to hit a stationary target at two feet.

[The MunchKING]

Also, Han did not shoot first.

Technically the Devistator shot first in that movie.