OOTS #1125 - The Discussion Thread

[Throknor]

That believing HPoH will "clearly honor his deal", just because he has a Lawful alignment, is an unfounded assumption? What "hoops", exactly, are you seeing?

Because I don't see any indication that HPoH wouldn't break his word if that was the difference between winning or losing, because we've yet to see him in a position where he's seriously considered losing to even be a real possibility.

What you say is true, and for certain promises would be worthwhile to review.

But I interpreted the scene as the Giant saying "Don't worry; the baby will be fine - but that doesn't mean Hilgya will survive".

[zimmerwald1915]

Eh, it's not a tall tale that the imp could do that. It's a demon/devil, and they just go back to the lower planes if they're killed on the material plane, so dying to bring back V's head to Durkon would not be suicidal, since it will just come back to life.

That's only the rule for summoned creatures. Qarr was actually physically present on the Material Plane, and, like the devil he called on the island, could be killed there.

[hroþila]

Unless "insane" has somehow come to mean "desperate to protect her own ego" as opppsed to "not in control of her actions" or "incapable of distinguishing right from wrong," then no, insanity is by no means the "official" explanation for Vaarsuvius's swallowing that tall tale. It may be the excuse you've cooked up in your own mind and out of thin air, but I would have to wonder why you would bother.

V swallowing that tall tale was what allowed their ego not to be spared in the first place, by making it so that they couldn't spin it as a heroic sacrifice.

V wasn't insane, but they were clearly not thinking straight either. Which doesn't absolve them for the moral choices they made while in that state (especially since the splice explicitly rejuvenated them), but together with V's panicked state it does explain why V accepted the tale the archfiends presented them, at least long enough to realize what their true motivation was.

[KorvinStarmast]

V swallowing that tall tale was what allowed their ego not to be spared in the first place, by making it so that they couldn't spin it as a heroic sacrifice.

V wasn't insane, but they were clearly not thinking straight either. Which doesn't absolve them for the moral choices they made while in that state (especially since the splice explicitly rejuvenated them), but together with V's panicked state it does explain why V accepted the tale the archfiends presented them, at least long enough to realize what their true motivation was.

V was fatigued, mentally and physically, from the never ending attempts to solve the problem of communicating with Haley (and some other issues) using arcane magic. When one is fatigued and exhausted, one's judgment often suffers. This came across to me as a well set up error in judgment: Rich planted the seeds of both frustration and exhaustion to show V's judgment (and aim) going to shreds over a series of strips, which put V in the disadvantageous position vis a vis the imp and the black dragon ... which the fiends exploited.

Put differently, I think that what you describe as panic (accurately, considering the family's peril) was set up by exhaustion and frustration, leading to the decision point where the fiend's diabolical offer was accepted.

[Breccia]

The party seems screwed unless Durkon's final gambit works.

So Elan would say they're 100% fine, right?

Also: how effective is a dominated ranger wielding a pointed stick?

[hroþila]

V was fatigued, mentally and physically, from the never ending attempts to solve the problem of communicating with Haley (and some other issues) using arcane magic. When one is fatigued and exhausted, one's judgment often suffers. This came across to me as a well set up error in judgment: Rich planted the seeds of both frustration and exhaustion to show V's judgment (and aim) going to shreds over a series of strips, which put V in the disadvantageous position vis a vis the imp and the black dragon ... which the fiends exploited.

Put differently, I think that what you describe as panic (accurately, considering the family's peril) was set up by exhaustion and frustration, leading to the decision point where the fiend's diabolical offer was accepted.

Oh, I agree. I didn't mention V's exhaustion explicitly, but that's what I was referring to, hence why I mentioned that the splice had rejuvenated them, thus removing their inability to think straight and also any extenuating circumstances from an ethical point of view.

[Delicious]

I think Giant isn't going to have infantcide in his comic. Perhaps the whole promise not to kill the baby is a construct of him wanting NOT to have infantcide in his comic.

Of course I could be wrong. Just my guess though.

A few very young sentients want to have a word with you.

[SilverCacaobean]

Doesn't Quar being a devil mean he's a being of pure law and evil? If so, that's why he'd keep his word even if he got killed, as opposed to Greg, who's just some ******* who usually keeps his word. If he's even lawful. Do we even know if Greg's lawful?

That said, I'm not expecting him to go after the kid.

Also

Yeah, but as he said, preserving V's life does not advance the IFCC's plans because whether V survives this battle or not is inconsequential to how the battle progresses. If the Order loses, preserving V serves no purpose because they'll just die when the time limit is over. If the Order wins, preserving V serves no purpose because they'll just be resurrected afterwards. No matter what, V cannot currently affect the battle's outcome, especially not if the IFCC takes their soul and protects their body, since that will mean that if V gets healed, then they can't do anything because their soul is trapped in the Lower Planes.

I was about to reply to Turin_19 but I saw this, so... Yeah, pretty much this. Good point about the soul pulling making things worse if V gets healed, too. I hadn't thought of that.

[zimmerwald1915]

Lotta assumptions going around about how each Director must possess Vaarsuvius's soul for the whole of his allotted time at once (and thus that collectively they only have two yoinks left). I am reminded of the assumptions that they would only possess Vaarsuvius's soul after death.

[Kish]

If so, that's why he'd keep his word even if he got killed,

Objection: The assertion that Qarr would act like a robot was presented as part of the same ridiculous alternate plan that hinged on Durkon being in a place he wasn't, with a scroll of Sending he didn't have, able to cast Resurrection as a standard action.

Qarr has consistently acted utterly self-serving, betraying far more strongly implied commitments than his indication that he was willing to help Vaarsuvius--such as when he teleported away and left Zz'dtri, who he had agreed to serve as a familiar, to be killed by a vampire dwarf.

[Resileaf]

Lotta assumptions going around about how each Director must possess Vaarsuvius's soul for the whole of his allotted time at once (and thus that collectively they only have two yoinks left). I am reminded of the assumptions that they would only possess Vaarsuvius's soul after death.

It's a fair assumption because they did for Girard's gate. If their goal was simply to watch the gate explode, they could have released V's soul at any point after that (for more time available later), but they let the timer run its entire course.

[SilverCacaobean]

Lotta assumptions going around about how each Director must possess Vaarsuvius's soul for the whole of his allotted time at once (and thus that collectively they only have two yoinks left). I am reminded of the assumptions that they would only possess Vaarsuvius's soul after death.

It's not a baseless assumption like the other one you mentioned. The first time they took V they kept V with them until the time was over, which was more time than they needed to achieve their purposes. It's possible they're only trying to trick V into making that assumption of course, but it's a reasonable assumption. Even if it turns out they don't have to possess V's soul all at once, the rest of the reasons they wouldn't pull V's soul now stand.

edit: Resileaf, stop ninjaing me Nah, it's fine

Objection: The assertion that Qarr would act like a robot was presented as part of the same ridiculous alternate plan that hinged on Durkon being in a place he wasn't, with a scroll of Sending he didn't have, able to cast Resurrection as a standard action.

Qarr has consistently acted utterly self-serving, betraying far more strongly implied commitments than his indication that he was willing to help Vaarsuvius--such as when he teleported away and left Zz'dtri, who he had agreed to serve as a familiar, to be killed by a vampire dwarf.

Yeah. Maybe he found a loophole in the deal he had made with Z? I figured that beings like Qarr have to at least find a loophole to directly break their word because of what they are but I admit I have no idea about d&d alignment and cosmology and how devils and such work. I thought Greg could just break his word if he felt like it but Qarr, being a devil, couldn't. Now that you mention it, nothing in-comic supports that assertion...

[D.One]

Objection: The assertion that Qarr would act like a robot was presented as part of the same ridiculous alternate plan that hinged on Durkon being in a place he wasn't, with a scroll of Sending he didn't have, able to cast Resurrection as a standard action.

Qarr has consistently acted utterly self-serving, betraying far more strongly implied commitments than his indication that he was willing to help Vaarsuvius--such as when he teleported away and left Zz'dtri, who he had agreed to serve as a familiar, to be killed by a vampire dwarf.

Which reminds me that, in ancient times, when a familiar's wizard died, the familiar itself died too. Couldn't find this anywhere on SRD. Maybe I'm misremembering from a previous edition.

If not, and if a familiar trully dies when its wizard dies, then we would be able to conclude that Qarr didn't really become Zz'dtri's familiar, just a magical ally.

[Rogar Demonblud]

They don't die, but they do stop being a familiar. Which reduces them to just another animal.

Effectively, I consider that to be a distinction without a difference.

[SlashDash]

Objection: The assertion that Qarr would act like a robot was presented as part of the same ridiculous alternate plan that hinged on Durkon being in a place he wasn't, with a scroll of Sending he didn't have, able to cast Resurrection as a standard action.

I suggest you re-read #637

Qarr instantly recognized that V was being watched by the IFCC because they knew about Durkon and the Scroll. He didn't say Durkon didn't have it, he said they would have needed to have spied on him to know that it was there.

Yes, he calls the plan ridiculous, but not that it was wrong.

Unless we have reasons to doubt the on screen dialogue, we need to accept it as true.

Otherwise, what's the point of anything really? One could always claim that everything we see now is still an illusion in the pyramid...

Qarr has consistently acted utterly self-serving, betraying far more strongly implied commitments than his indication that he was willing to help Vaarsuvius--such as when he teleported away and left Zz'dtri, who he had agreed to serve as a familiar, to be killed by a vampire dwarf.

Umm... what?

First, we don't know what deal Qarr and Z made to each other.

Second, in the pyramid, Qarr told Malack to buzz off. He never did it for Z. Then when Greg kills Z, Qarr just leaves.

What was he supposed to do at that point exactly?

[Fyraltari]

I suggest you re-read #637

Qarr instantly recognized that V was being watched by the IFCC because they knew about Durkon and the Scroll. He didn't say Durkon didn't have it, he said they would have needed to have spied on him to know that it was there.

Yes, he calls the plan ridiculous, but not that it was wrong.

Unless we have reasons to doubt the on screen dialogue, we need to accept it as true.

Durkon had already left.

Umm... what?

First, we don't know what deal Qarr and Z made to each other.

True.

Second, in the pyramid, Qarr told Malack to buzz off. He never did it for Z. Then when Greg kills Z, Qarr just leaves.

What was he supposed to do at that point exactly?

No Zz'dtri was still alive, if unconscious. Qarr even wishes him good luck.

[Kish]

Yeah. Maybe he found a loophole in the deal he had made with Z? I figured that beings like Qarr have to at least find a loophole to directly break their word because of what they are but I admit I have no idea about d&d alignment and cosmology and how devils and such work. I thought Greg could just break his word if he felt like it but Qarr, being a devil, couldn't. Now that you mention it, nothing in-comic supports that assertion...

I think the simpler explanation was that Lee was simply lying (something characters of all alignments can do, though Lawful ones are more likely to handwave some nonsense about how it's not really a lie when Chaotic ones would just shrug, "Yeah, I lied") about what Qarr could and couldn't do, and if Vaarsuvius had come up with a plan that involved Qaar's death Qaar's response would have been, "Ha ha no."

[Thurulian]

Something that occurred to me reading strip #647 is that Elan says he took Greater dispel magic as one of his 5th level spells. So maybe Elan will save the day haha.

[Kish]

I suggest you re-read #637

If I do, will Resurrection take a standard action and will Durkon have been at the fleet at the time?

Yes, he calls the plan ridiculous, but not that it was wrong.

Somehow I think that if I say that's a ridiculous stretch, you will understand me to have contested your accuracy. If not, well, have fun with that.

Unless we have reasons to doubt the on screen dialogue, we need to accept it as true.

Glad not to be part of your We.

Otherwise, what's the point of anything really? One could always claim that everything we see now is still an illusion in the pyramid...

I see a big difference between "we have to believe that what's depicted is being depicted" and "we have to believe that any in-comic idiot's assertions might as well have come directly from Rich."

That you don't only means that, again, I am not part of any We you speak for.

[fenfire]

Alas, it doesn't explain Belkar stabbing Blackwing as Blackwing can't do any of those actions. I can see Belkar preemptively stabbing to survive an imminent threat to himself but Blackwing is no threat. Multiple orders, perhaps.

It's incredibly frustrating to always miss the one little thing that leads to that nice, structured theory disintegrating into the finest dust imaginable. Perhaps more along the lines of "don't move further than X feet away from the elf, otherwise engage anything as you see fit"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

[lying is] something characters of all alignments can do, though Lawful ones are more likely to handwave some nonsense about how it's not really a lie when Chaotic ones would just shrug, "Yeah, I lied"

I think a better way of putting this is that (of course!) anyone of any alignment can lie. Lawful* ones just feel that doing so is wrong, regardless of circumstance and thus will try to justify the transgression to themselves and others around them, while chaotics* don't feel that lies need to be justified in and of themselves (i.e. if they lied to achieve an objective they consider moral, the lie doesn't make the effort immoral).

Grey Wolf

* by and large. I'm sure there are examples on both ends of the alignment were this breaks down.

[D.One]

Something that occurred to me reading strip #647 is that Elan says he took Greater dispel magic as one of his 5th level spells. So maybe Elan will save the day haha.

Didn't remember that. Quite interesting. Unfortunately, Dispel Magic or Greater Dispel Magic don't work against the vampiric Supernatural Ability Dominate.

PS: Not that a dominated Elan would try to Dispel the domination anyway.

[Gusion]

You sure about that?

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

[Breccia]

PS: Not that a dominated Elan would try to Dispel the domination anyway.

Just as well. I prefer...FREEDOM!

[Jasdoif]

I think Giant isn't going to have infantcide in his comic.

You sure about that?

"The death of one man is a tragedy, the death of millions is a statistic."

...no, I don't think it stops being tragic just because the number of deaths gets uncomfortable to count. I doubt the Giant does either.

[Gusion]

...no, I don't think it stops being tragic just because the number of deaths gets uncomfortable to count. I doubt the Giant does either.

...

I was quoting Stalin. Opposing Stalin isn't exactly a big stand to take in modern society.

But my larger point remains, that killing Kudzu - a named infant - isn't something Giant is likely to do in my opinion. It just isn't the same thing in a story compared to the massive slaughter of nameless innocents.

[Fyraltari]

I was quoting Stalin. Opposing Stalin isn't exactly a big stand to take in modern society.

You'd be surprised.

[Peelee]

You'd be surprised.

Well, that may depend on where you are, sadly.

[Jasdoif]

But my larger point remains, that killing Kudzu - a named infant - isn't something Giant is likely to do in my opinion.

I'm dealing with an odd juxtaposition: I don't think seeing Kudzu die is particularly likely, but I don't think Hilgya being rewarded for using her own child as a narrative human dwarven shield is particularly likely either. Especially not with the book's instances of Roy/gods/Andi running headlong into consequences worse than they'd expected their actions to lead them into. None of which single out Kudzu over Hilgya or require (on-panel) death in either case, of course; but I find it very unlikely they'll both be walking out of this scenario wholly unscathed. For starters, Kudzu doesn't seem to be walking yet.

[martianmister]

...

I was quoting Stalin. Opposing Stalin isn't exactly a big stand to take in modern society.

You're american, I presume.