OOTS #1125 - The Discussion Thread

[davidbofinger]

By that logic, Elan's the one who triggered Miko's fall because he destroyed the gate, which made her chase down the Order. Or Roy triggered it by chasing Xykon and hiring Elan, who destroyed the gate, and Belkar, who set about to try and break her. Or Xykon is responsible because he occupied the gate, causing Roy to chase and find him there, and so on.

And that was exactly the oracle's point: the term "cause" is so vague that it's often impossible to say whether A caused the death of B, so Belkar's question is at best poorly phrased and at worst bad. He was also critical of Roy's question.

[Shining Wrath]

As was already discussed, every event has multiple causes, starting with the creation of the universe (widely regarded as a bad move). Remove any one of those causes, and something different happens. Belkar was somewhere in the causality chain for a whole lot of events.

Some people take responsibility for every event where they are part of the chain. Some people take responsibility only if caught red-handed. Both extremes are kinda neurotic in my layman's opinion.

[MartianInvader]

Well, just to clarify, the question Belkar asked was whether he would cause the death of any of these people, not all of them.

But he didn't say that Belkar wouldn't cause the death of all of them. In fact, he didn't say that Belkar wouldn't cause the death of everyone in the world. Therefore we can conclude that Hel's plan succeeds and it's Belkar's fault.

[Resileaf]

Imo, the problem with that thing is that Belkar was nowhere near the only cause of Miko's breakdown. The entire Order has a hand in it, and they're hardly the most responsible for it, so I really don't think imputing Belkar as the cause of anything concerning Miko is fair. The worst thing he did was provoke her to combat.
And honestly, I highly doubt that killing Belkar at the end of their fight would have caused her to become Fallen.

[Riftwolf]

And honestly, I highly doubt that killing Belkar at the end of their fight would have caused her to become Fallen.

After rereading the relevant comic I came to the same conclusion. If Belkar had pushed her to the brink then surrendered, he'd have stood a better chance of making her fall.

...

Wait a minute... How did we get here again?

[Rogar Demonblud]

I don't know, but the whole thing is starting to remind me of the arguments that ended up getting 'morally justified' turned into a ban-worthy topic.

[Peelee]

The difference is intent. Belkar pulled Miko's string, setting her off.

If you light off fireworks, you're responsible for any fires they start.

I don't disagree that Miko was responsible for her actions. I disagree that Belkar was not responsible. He did exactly the same thing as lighting a stick of dynamite and tossing it. Is he not responsible for the damsge it causes, even if someone else tosses it somewhere else before it explodes?

Bullhonky. Belkar's actions towards Miko don't amount to anywhere near what you're crediting him with.

[Doctor West]

After rereading the relevant comic I came to the same conclusion. If Belkar had pushed her to the brink then surrendered, he'd have stood a better chance of making her fall.

...

Wait a minute... How did we get here again?

All roads lead to Miko or alignment arguments. It's this forums equivalent of Godwin's Law.

[137beth]

All roads lead to Miko or alignment arguments. It's this forums equivalent of Godwin's Law.

So how was Godwin responsible for Miko's fall?

[Fyraltari]

So how was Godwin responsible for Miko's fall?

She could only tolerate people calling her fascist up to a point.

[Goblin_Priest]

All roads lead to Miko or alignment arguments. It's this forums equivalent of Godwin's Law.

Only because Han shot first.

[Doctor West]

Okay fine, Miko, alignment arguments, or Star Wars.

[brian 333]

In this case, Belkar stabbed Blackwing because he was protecting V.

I'm wondering how much he's being manipulated by Ponchula and how much is him following Roy's order witb a new interpretation? Roy might have an opening here if he tells Belkar his original idea was better.

[Manty5]

Clearly, the gods are responsible for it all, since they created the world upon which such crimes could be committed.

Agency is a lie.

[The MunchKING]

In this case, Belkar stabbed Blackwing because he was protecting V.

I'm wondering how much he's being manipulated by Ponchula and how much is him following Roy's order witb a new interpretation? Roy might have an opening here if he tells Belkar his original idea was better.

“Kill the cleric” isn’t the idea you want in his head if you’re trying to get him to STOP blocking your clerics from healing people.

[Riftwolf]

Only because Han shot first.

He only shot first because the Balrog didn't have wings.

[Gusion]

Okay fine, Miko, alignment arguments, or Star Wars.

I think we could have a metric of how good a strip is based on how long it takes for the forum to go offtopic.

[brian 333]

I think we could have a metric of how good a strip is based on how long it takes for the forum to go offtopic.

We have already elevated Miko to Star Wars status. This is itself a metric of how good the strip is.

Now we need a name for base units. Let's say 1000 Annikins = 100 Leias = 10 Lukes = 1 Han. Miko would rate at least 8 Lukes and 7 Leia.

Belkar, fortunately, already has a scale for his personality, so we don't need to do a Greedo-Vader-Tarkin scale.

[Goblin_Priest]

I think we could have a metric of how good a strip is based on how long it takes for the forum to go offtopic.

The "Gusion Metric" calculates the quality of a strip by the following formula:

G=(P*N)/(1+S)

G=Gusion Metric
P=Number of pages the thread has after a week
N=Number of pages before arguments over alignment, Miko, gender identities, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings comes up. (equals P if never brought up)
S=Number of pages the thread has that mention at least once one of the previous topics after a week.

Example 1, if a thread has 20 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages), that strip has a G value of 33,33.
Example 2, if a thread has 10 pages after a week, people never bring up any of those topics, that strip has a G value of 100.
Example 3, if a thread has 30 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages) for the next 10 pages, then came back on topic, that strip has a G value of 50.

I feel this formula undervalues P (or (P-S)), but I've wasted way too much time on it already XD

[Riftwolf]

The "Gusion Metric" calculates the quality of a strip by the following formula:

G=(P*N)/(1+S)

G=Gusion Metric
P=Number of pages the thread has after a week
N=Number of pages before arguments over alignment, Miko, gender identities, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings comes up. (equals P if never brought up)
S=Number of pages the thread has that mention at least once one of the previous topics after a week.

Example 1, if a thread has 20 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages), that strip has a G value of 33,33.
Example 2, if a thread has 10 pages after a week, people never bring up any of those topics, that strip has a G value of 100.
Example 3, if a thread has 30 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages) for the next 10 pages, then came back on topic, that strip has a G value of 50.

I feel this formula undervalues P (or (P-S)), but I've wasted way too much time on it already XD

The Gusion metric is invalid if the comic involves Hilgya in even a passing way, as the arguments over whether she's really evil will subsume all other arguments up to the Miko point (the 'infinite vanishing point' of forum shouting, if you will)

[eaglewingz]

)...but I've wasted way too much time on it already

Since when has that ever stopped anyone here?

[MReav]

Here's how I think things will play out:

Spoiler

Show

Durkula will try to tell Hilgya what to do, only for Roy to remind her how much she hates Durkon, causing her to try and break free. Durkula will be stuck trying to play Shroedinger's Durkon, because he's either Durkon, so the dominated OOTS members will obey him, or he's not Durkon, so Hilgya will obey him. I imagine he'll get stuck trying to play both, and Hilgya will break free in the process (being a selfish, chaotic individual, having anyone order her around is something she finds offensive to her existence, Durkon doing so is merely especially so), and she'll end up casting a Magic Circle against Order to help her allies.

[Kish]

The Gusion metric is invalid if the comic involves Hilgya in even a passing way, as the arguments over whether she's really evil will subsume all other arguments up to the Miko point (the 'infinite vanishing point' of forum shouting, if you will)

Only in the presence of weirdos.

[Gusion]

The "Gusion Metric" calculates the quality of a strip by the following formula:

G=(P*N)/(1+S)

G=Gusion Metric
P=Number of pages the thread has after a week
N=Number of pages before arguments over alignment, Miko, gender identities, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings comes up. (equals P if never brought up)
S=Number of pages the thread has that mention at least once one of the previous topics after a week.

Example 1, if a thread has 20 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages), that strip has a G value of 33,33.
Example 2, if a thread has 10 pages after a week, people never bring up any of those topics, that strip has a G value of 100.
Example 3, if a thread has 30 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages) for the next 10 pages, then came back on topic, that strip has a G value of 50.

I feel this formula undervalues P (or (P-S)), but I've wasted way too much time on it already XD

Wow.

I'm impressed.

[Mightymosy]

If I were DM, I'd rule Hylgia to auto-save against domination gaze, because it is against her very nature to obey ANY commands.

Then again, I'm a mediocre DM ;-)

[Keltest]

If I were DM, I'd rule Hylgia to auto-save against domination gaze, because it is against her very nature to obey ANY commands.

Then again, I'm a mediocre DM ;-)

The reason that Domination only gives an additional save chance for commands against their nature is because its magical mind control, not magical persuasion. The target is being magically compelled to do something whether they want to or not. Somebody weak willed like Belkar could still fairly consistently be forced to perform acts against his nature (like, I dunno, working to revive a drowning person), whereas somebody like Thanh who has above-average willpower has a much better chance of breaking free.


Regardless, "being a contrarian" isn't enough to be immune to domination, nor should it be.

[zimmerwald1915]

Regardless, "being a contrarian" isn't enough to be immune to domination, nor should it be.

Indeed. If it was, every player would play a pigheaded contrarian as a matter of course.

What?

[Delta]

Yep. Stabbing the Oracle resolved that plot hook rather definitively.

This. I thought it was a given that the whole "caused the death" debate was only something the Oracle used to highlight how vague Belkar's question was phrased, the Oracle knew Belkar would kill him and wanted it to happen, so he had to come up with some kind of explanation to throw him off the scent (because if he had outright told him something like "Well there's still time", it's not impossible Belkar might have figured it out, I mean all he had to do was take one look out of the window before stabbing him). Whether or not the prophecy was actually resolved by the deaths Roy or Miko is really beside the point.

[Mad Humanist]

Regardless, "being a contrarian" isn't enough to be immune to domination, nor should it be.

Also surely the inveterate contrarian has a very clearly advertised lever on which domination can work. I guess in game terms that is not how domination works, but if it was a real thing I bet it would be part of it.

[D.One]

The "Gusion Metric" calculates the quality of a strip by the following formula:

G=(P*N)/(1+S)

G=Gusion Metric
P=Number of pages the thread has after a week
N=Number of pages before arguments over alignment, Miko, gender identities, Star Wars or Lord of the Rings comes up. (equals P if never brought up)
S=Number of pages the thread has that mention at least once one of the previous topics after a week.

Example 1, if a thread has 20 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages), that strip has a G value of 33,33.
Example 2, if a thread has 10 pages after a week, people never bring up any of those topics, that strip has a G value of 100.
Example 3, if a thread has 30 pages after a week, people started discussing Han after 10 pages, and mentioned him in 1/2 of the pages past that (5 pages) for the next 10 pages, then came back on topic, that strip has a G value of 50.

I feel this formula undervalues P (or (P-S)), but I've wasted way too much time on it already XD

I'm really impressed with how much thought you put into that, but, as it has been said, in this forum, maybe I shouldn't