(Spheres of Power) Full Caster Dipping Guide

[Kitsuneymg]

The Spheres of Power system for Pathfinder turns the conventional wisdom about dipping on its head. Since caster levels and talents from other classes generally stack, there are often some very good reasons to dip other classes. It can sometimes come down to just eeking out a few more talents. This guide is intended to highlight and track the best dips for primary casters. I assembled this list initially as a personal resource, so it may have quite a few of my own biases an interests baked in. Hopefully others will find it useful as well.

By dip, I mean taking up to 4 levels of the indicated class. Any more than that and you're not really dipping anymore. This is not a guide on what classes to base your character on. For example, a witch may not want to dip because their hexes fall behind. This is a guide on what classes to take when you've already decided that losing class features and favored class bonus is okay.

Guide to the Guide

Best of the Best. You need a reason not to dip this.
Great. These dips are almost always worth taking.
Good. Many builds can make use of this dip, but you need to think about it carefully. Giving up FCB or alternate capstones may factor into taking this or not. Retraining exists for a reason though.
Okay. Maybe it's super niche, or maybe there's a better way to get what this gives you. Probably only useful for specific builds.
Bad. Avoid these if possible.

Note: One talent per level is niche. Almost every caster class gets this base, so it's always a niche dip. Two is great. One and a limited bonus may be niche or good. Obviously, if you wanted the talents anyway, there’s no difference between two talents and two specific talents. The advice is general, and specific builds may like some abilities not even mentioned here.



Witch 1/2/3/4

This is perhaps one of the best classes in Spheres. The primary drawback of being a witch in regular pathfinder is the spell list. But Spheres does away with that problem. I can honestly recommend playing sphere witch 20. In fact, it's hard to argue for another caster. But if you find yourself wanting to play another caster, witch is still very dippable, unlike in vancian PF.

1.Two talents, familiar, and a hex. The hex is Moldable Magic to get you a third sphere talent that can be changed each day. This makes witch one of the best 1 level dips in Spheres.
2. One talent, and a second hex. There are three hexes that grant the use of a sphere talent (Contagious Fervor, Sight Beyond Sight, and Destructive Curse), so if you want awar totem, divine future, or a destruction blast type, this is effectively 2 talents. Cauldron for brew potion (compounds in SoP) to go with your flex talent is not bad either. The +4 to craft alchemy becomes important if you take the Alchemy Sphere to supplement your casting. Depending on how many levels you end up with, traditional non-save hexes like flight or tongues can be useful too. Tongues vs Divination Logos is a tough call, but I find myself needing minutes more often than hours, so I consider tongues better due to less investment. Remember, hexes can be taken with feats too!
3.Two Talents. The second is a patron talent so must be the same sphere as the one you selected at level 1. Still basically unrestricted.
4. One talent. A third hex. If you can make use of yet another hex, this is a great dip to grab after witch 3. Remember, Extra Hex exists though.



Incanter 1/2/3/4

The class that should have just been an archetype of wizard. But it isn't and you can take advantage of that fact. You have two choices when dipping Incanter: spend all your feats on specialization points and take 1 level, or spend none of them and take 2 or 4.

1. Two talents. For a one level dip, you want to spend all your feats. Get a sphere specialization for a free talent, a +1 caster level to that sphere, and either a familiar, two domains/inquisitions, or the channel energy ability (for prereques.) If you plan on taking more incanter, consider skipping the specializations and using the bonus feat to get extra talents or other magic feats you need to meet prereques.
As a note, incanter 1 unlocks the ludicrously underpriced Specialist’s Staff, which grants another specialization. This doesn't stack with an existing one, but does grant you an additional +1 and a free talent (or base sphere). For 3,000 GP. This item is almost worth dipping the class for itself. It’s also dysfunctional and easy to see that it was written by someone who has little to no business making magic items. Don’t expect it to be available or to work for non-single classed incanters. I know it isn’t in my games.
2. One talent. If you didn't spend your feats on a specialization, you get a bonus feat.
3. Two talents. If you have a specialization, you get the first ability. Nature is the best here IMO, and the animal companion can be kept up to level by using beastmastery to stack ranks. This is even better if you bought a Specialist’s Staff.
4. One talent. If you didn't spend your feats on a specialization, you get a bonus feat.



Wizard 1

The only time you want more than 1 level of wizard is if you need wizard 5 for a metamagic/crafting feat. Just use incanter unless you traded all your bonus feats.

1. Two talents, a familiar/bonded object, scribe scroll, and a sphere specialization for another talent and a +1 CL. It also opens up wizard discoveries.

Archetypes

Cosmic Sage

Witch gives a moldable talent which is almost as good as their craft-any-scroll ability. However, your witch will need the base sphere or a UMD check to use those scrolls. So this does have some utility. The self-enhancement won't scale, so no point in taking 2 levels.

Spellslinger

Assuming your GM is willing to let this work with Sphere Wizard, this is fantastic for SoL/SoS builds. Yougive up your arcane bond and sphere specialization, but you can easily get up to +5 on save DCs! This is a great alternative option for SoL/SoS characters. This class gives up Arcane Bond, Arcane School, and Cantrips, which technically makes it incompatible with Sphere Wizard. Sphere Wizard replaces School and Bond with a Sphere’s appropriate version of those abilities. Strangely, Sphere Wizard doesn’t replace Cantrips. In a game where SoP is the only casting, you can make a good case for being able to play this archetype.

If you have to take a level of the vancian Spellslinger instead of a Spheres version, but the Save DC boost applies to sphere effects, this is still worth considering. Enhancement sphere effects on some throw away guns can be what pushes your SoL/SoS over the edge at high levels. Just consider dazing spell or Admixture Steal Time.

Exploiter

Access to exploits is good, as long as your GM says your arcane reservoir works like the Sphere Arcanist’s does (affects Sphere CL and Sphere save DC.) Otherwise this is not very good. You still don’t get the ability to spend a spell point for 3 arcane points, but you do get two talents. I think this is a bit less powerful than arcanist 1, due to only having a few arcane reservoir points available.

Eclectic Researcher 1

You only want to take this if you are interested in dipping for Spellcrafting. It gets you both feats and two talents in one level. I don’t like this class. It feels very much like someone wanted to replicate a character they read in a book, and went overly specific with it. But if you need those two feats and don’t want to just be an Eclectic Researcher, then this is how to do it.



Stargazer 1/2/3/4

This comes with the caveat that your GM allows +1 effective spellcasting level PRCs to grant you your base talent progression, and that you can deal with/ignore the deity requirements. Without those, this is just okay. If you take 4 levels, the extra 2 skill points/level pay your prereqs back, but you’re missing out on FCB.

1. +1 level of casting (oneor two talents), a familiar, and a Hex. If you haven't dipped witch, this is another way to grab moldable magics. It also has a d8, 3/4 bab, and a +1/strong reflex save. If planning on2-4 levels, this may be significant.
2. +1 level of casting (oneor two talents) and a sidereal arcana. The two you probably want are The Bridge and The Stargazer. Darkvision for those who lack it is great, but not being flat-footed means you can use immediate action spells to defend yourself.
3. +1 level of casting (one or two talents) and Stars subdomain. The Void and Stars domain do nothing for you. If your GM gives you a free talent in Warp instead, this is better, but otherwise you're doing this for a level 4 and a second arcana.
4. +1 level of casting (one or two talents) and a second arcana. This is very niche, IMO. So I can't recommend more than two levels of Stargazer, but the arcana may be desirable for some.



Arcanist 1

The USoP arcanist is usable, but still not something I'd take a bunch of levels in. You're primarily here for the ability to freely bump CL or save DC with arcane pool. Dip incanter if you want "extra exploit" feats.

1. One moldable talent This level would be higher rated, except the Witch does it better. Arcane reservoir and consume spell. The ability to increase CL or DC by 1 of your sphere magic is good. The exploit that increases this to 2 is better. You’ll want to get quick study at some point too. It should work with the Witch’s Moldable Magic hex.



Sorcerer 1

The utility of this class comes down to two things. Are you a blaster, and does your GM let Blood Havoc work with destruction or at least base spheres you take with your sorcerer levels?

1. If you are not a blaster, trade your bloodline arcana for an extra talent. This way you get two talents, a +1 CL to one sphere, and two sp. Blasters are here for Orc bloodline and Blood Havoc.

Archetypes

Old Dual-Blooded Sorcerer 1

Never updated in USoP, so probably not available. This is excellent for blasters! Orc + Wildblooded Dragon/Elemental bloodline, and blood havoc? That's +3 damage/dice to destruction spells of your favored element. And all you lose is a spell point? If you blast, this is a must have. Clear using this old class with your GM though.

Inheritor 1

If taken at first level, this gives you a martial tradition, 3/4 BAB, and a few uses of martial flexibility. Your first level bloodline power is improved a bit too, but unless you're playing a gish, this is probably not as good as base sorcerer. You can grab beastmastery’s Pet to make your familiar granted from another class scale at full level very easily though.

Special Note

In particularly TO games, the
Phoenix Bloodline’s Arcana combined with any Fireblast group talent from destruction means unlimited rapid healing for your party. Expect your GM to nerf this somehow. Combine with selective spell and Time Admixture to Improved Haste and Heal the party all at once.



Shaman 1/2

1. A talent, and a talent limited to one sphere that can change daily within that sphere.
2. One talent, and a hex. So moldable talent for changing every day. Witch grants this at level 1 though. If you need two flexible talents and Witch 1/Arcanist 1 doesn’t work for some reason, Shaman 2 can do that.

Archetypes

Unsworn Shaman 1/2

1. You get a floating hex from the shaman or witch list. The ones that stand out for a dipper are: cauldron, fetish, and secret. Well, that and Moldable Magics, assuming you don't already have it from extra hex or witch dip. This allows you to craft any compound(potions) or marvelous item (wondrous item,) or get a metamagic feat for the day. You get the standard 1 talent too.
2. This gives access to a wandering spirit. The (not well written) sphere shaman archetype indicates that wandering spirit grants you a talent based on the spirit you bond. It’s not completely free and every sphere is not represented, but it’s a talent and a flex talent.


Fay Adept 1/2

Illusion is hard to rate, because it varies so much from GM to GM. This is green if illusions generally work at your table, and orange if they tend not to.

1. A sphere and illusion as a bonus sphere. If you wanted illusion, this is as good as two talents. Shadowstuff gives a minor save debuff for an action. Illusions persist for 2 extra rounds. Evil Eye is better than shadow stuff. Just be a witch.
2. Darkvision and a talent. Bad if you already have darkvision.

Archetypes

Sidhe Invoker 1
1. Ring Fort is another way to make Mind stick more. Fallen Fay isn’t worth the time it took to type that out, and illusion is too variable to rate. Magic scales with MSD, not class level, and Terrain can block small tunnels even with 1 level. You still get illusion and a talent. Better than base class for dipping.

Skulk 1.
Free Dark instead of illusion. Dark is less subject to the whims of the GM, so this is a bit better than base class. Dark lingering for 2 rounds is generally going to accomplish more than the illusion version too, IMO.

Solipsist 1
1. A free upgrade to base class and stacks with Sidhe Invoker and Skulk. You can add a d6 a few times a day to ability checks and skill checks. Initiative is a dexterity ability check. You can also always add it to bluff, knowledge, or stealth. If you’re a charisma caster and the party face, the bluff is great. Knowing things is always good, and stealth comes up every once in a while even if you’re not the scout.

Unseelie Disciple 1
1. Incompatible with Solipsist, but giving sneak attack fulfills prereqs without losing CL.

Word Witch 1
This is hard to rate. The abilities are all crappy copies of other sphere effects, but you get all of them and they scale with CL. Creation is, IMO, a poor sphere to invest in..



Eliciter1

For people going into mind, this is almost required. For everyone else, skip it.

1. You only get1 sphere and it has to be mind, but you also get +2 to the save DC of mind sphere spells. Full CL in mind just makes sure that you don't fall behind. For a thrall-herd-like character, this is a must have.



Mesmerist1/2/3

For people going into mind, this is really good. For everyone else, skip it.

1. Hypnotic Stare gives a debuff to will saves. Stacks with Eliciter 1. Does *not* give Mind as a free sphere, so no talents. See Champion Mesmerist below
2. A stepping stone to level 3. Yes, some tricks are good, but you’re not here for tricks.
3. If you’re going to go heavy in Mind, you know you need a plan to deal with Immunity to Mind Affecting somehow. The feat Discern Alien Cognition lets you target creatures immune to mind affecting, fear, sleep, and paralysis because of their racial abilities or subtype abilities, but not if it’s their type that provides this. So it doesn’t work on constructs, vermin, etc. The feat Recondite Stimuli lets you pick one of four types immune to mind affecting and have your sphere effects work on them. Mesmerist 3 grants a Bold Stare and you’re picking Psychic Inception. It’s very tough to say how much this is worth. Discern Alien Cognition works very well for most things, but if you run into a lot type-based immunity, then you may need Recondite Stimuli up to four times. And neither bypass spell or item based immunity.

Archetypes

Champion Mesmerist
This archetype gives mind sphere for free and full CL in mind. so it’s an extra talent. Also a martial tradition if taken at level 1. Straight upgrade to Mesmerist.



Cleric

1. This is okay if you wanted life or death anyway. +2 to fort saves. Channel energy is a prereq for some nice feats. This also grabs 3/4 bab and two domains, plus a domain talent. So technically, this is a two-talent dip. But it's not worth going further in. I would skip this entirely and opt for incanter with channel energy and domains instead. But maybe you need your sheet to say "cleric"?

Archetypes

Faithful Shepherd
Leave this to warpriests who want CAM to hit with their deity's favored weapon.



Druid

Druid got hammered in spheres.

1. +2 to fort saves, a talent in Nature or Weather, and a talent in your animal domain (assuming you don’t pick an animal companion that won’t scale), plus that domain ability. Hawk domain can net a familiar, and a few daily boosts to perception. It's still 2 talents, so it's not bad if you wanted those talents anyway.

Archetypes

Avatar Druid 1
1. The bab is reduced, but you still have a good fort save. You get Nature for free, a martial tradition, and a free beastmastery talent and a martial or magical talent. With the right drawbacks and investment of a skill rank/level, this is a full strength animal companion and a familiar, both of which scale with ride/handle-animal. You get 15 ranks for free too. And you get CAM to AC, like a monk. You shouldn't be in melee, but sometimes you get attacked.
[b]2.]/b] If you were planning on speak with nature/animals anyway, this is a two-talent level. You can also summon non-scaling elementals. They aren't mind-slaves, but they are technically disposable. So it'll have some utility and maybe some great low level trap finding potential.+1 dodge to AC, like a monk. You shouldn't be in melee, but sometimes you get attacked.



Hedgewitch 1 2 3 4

Note. This isn’t a hedgewitch guide. There are a ton of great options and cool stuff in hedgewitch, and playing one til twentieth level is fine. Just, it’s not a hugely great dip on a full caster, imo.

Spiritialism is probably why you're here. The ability to flex a talent a few times/day is great. But Wizard and Witch can effectively do this without needing to lose CL. Crafters might like having a dream realm to craft in, but that’s a warp talent away.

1. You lose a CL. You get a pair of abilities from your path, which may include sphere talents. But do not take only one level.

2. You get a secret. This opens up extra secret. Secrets can give you access to a lot of special class abilities. Hexes, revelations, rogue tricks, etc. there are a ton. They also include abilities like Iron Mage’s imbued weapon to get CAM to hit. This more of a gish dip IMO, but maybe you need access to a bunch of different abilities and only have two levels to spare? Extra secret is your friends at 2 levels.
The reason 2 is not rated higher is because, if you want a specific ability (like hex) there are much better ways to it without losing CL and talents. Witch 1/Oracle 1 gets you a hex and a revelation in the same time hedgewitch 2 and a feat gets you them, but you (potentially: see archetypes) more talents and don’t lose CL. If you’re somehow limited on the number of levels you can dip, this becomes better.
3. Nothing exciting except a talent.
4. A second Secret. You don’t lose another CL or talent until 5, but you’re giving up potentially a few talents for a second secret, which is a feat. Slightly less good than 2, but not as bad as 1 or 3.

Archetypes
Hedgewitch archetypes usually replace a Path. You get two, and so you can take two archetypes.

Iron Mage
Free War Sphere andfull CL in war, but 3/4 CL otherwise. Strong fort save and d8 HD. At second level, you get access to a secret that does CAM to hit with one weapon. For a gish, this is great. For a caster? I'd need a real good reason to see this in use. Maybe the 1st level authority uses are worth the loss of CL/Talents? I don’t think so, but YMMV.

Triple Goddess
Two bonus spheres in Life, Death, or Fate, and full CL in those spheres, but 3/4 CL otherwise
Getting full CL in War, Life, Death, and Fate as well as 3 talents makes Triple Goddess/Iron Mage great for a character that wanted those spheres anyway.



Psychic 1/2

1. 1 Talent and a few rerolls on concentration checks per day. If you have a tradition that forces a lot of concentration checks, this can be useful.
2. Two talents. There are better ways to get 3 talents for two levels, but this is available.



Soul Weaver

1. Channel energy, a talent, and either life or death. You can do much better.
2. You can use your channel energy to give allies a +1 save bonus for 24 hours. Also a talent.



Bard

I love bards, but sphere bard is a poor dip. ¾ CL and good reflex save are it. Bardic music is too limited with a dip to use, and your masterpieces scale with bard level. Only useful for Pageant of the Peacock.

Archetypes

Sovereign Piper 1/2/3/4
Your masterpieces scale with CL now, but you can only give up magic spheres you get from this class for them. Which is only War given as a bonus, so the GM may not let you do that. You get Warleader as well. You’ll want level 1 to be bard, then your caster, then bard again once you’re high enough level to get a masterpiece. Other classes do traditions better, so you’re here for a specific masterpieces at 2-4.



Oracle

You get cursed and won’t advance the benefits very well, and you get 1 spell point and 1 talent. One of the worst dips possible. ¾ bab and good fort save can’t save this. While the ratio improves with 2 levels, you’re still not advancing your curse very well, and there are tons of better classes to take for a dip.



Thaumaturge

No surprises here. A bad class makes a bad dip. Zero talents. ¾ bab and only good will (which you already have) makes this slightly better than commoner, but not quite as good as NPC expert, IMO.

[icefractal]

Nice guide, I'd agree a lot of them are very dip-able.

I think you're underestimating the Arcanist though. Two words: Quick Study.
This exploit, which you can take at 1st level, changes the moldable talents from "change each day" to "change as a full-round action". AFAIK, nobody else gets this.
IMO, that's huge. It takes the flexibility from "if you know what you're facing in advance", to "any time you're not in combat", and can allow using tons of different talents in a single day if required.

For maximum benefit, you want more than a single level, but even a single super-flexible talent can be pretty damn useful.


Also - Oracle is bad? Is, say, replacing Dex with Cha for AC and CMD not worth a one-level dip which doesn't even lose you a CL? And there are some other rather nice Mystery powers that don't rely on class level either.

[Kitsuneymg]

Nice guide, I'd agree a lot of them are very dip-able.

I think you're underestimating the Arcanist though. Two words: Quick Study.
This exploit, which you can take at 1st level, changes the moldable talents from "change each day" to "change as a full-round action". AFAIK, nobody else gets this.
IMO, that's huge. It takes the flexibility from "if you know what you're facing in advance", to "any time you're not in combat", and can allow using tons of different talents in a single day if required.

For maximum benefit, you want more than a single level, but even a single super-flexible talent can be pretty damn useful.


Also - Oracle is bad? Is, say, replacing Dex with Cha for AC and CMD not worth a one-level dip which doesn't even lose you a CL? And there are some other rather nice Mystery powers as well. You want ones that don't rely on Oracle level, but there are a lot of those.

Extra Arcanist Exploit exists. You only need 1 level of arcanist to unlock that. And their talent progression is terrible. Witch grants a moldable talent via a hex too. So you can get two that way. Yeah, if you wanna do all the flexing, arcanist might be good. Inheritor is better for that case, IMO. At least at 5th level+.

I still think Oracle is a pretty bad dip for a caster. For a gish, it's pretty great, but for someone who doesn't wanna get into combat, you're trading class features for an AC bonus. And it won't end up mattering too terribly much at mid to high levels anyway. Plus, Avatar does CAM to AC already, doesn't hobble you, and grants two talents (even if one is nature,) and a martial tradition. I guess you can wear armor with oracle, but that'll limit your Cha by the max dex, yeah? I just don't see a mid or long term payout in SoP for oracle as a primary caster. If there is some specific mystery that really rocks, I'd love to know about it.

[icefractal]

Extra Arcanist Exploit exists. You only need 1 level of arcanist to unlock that. And their talent progression is terrible. Witch grants a moldable talent via a hex too. So you can get two that way. Yeah, if you wanna do all the flexing, arcanist might be good. Inheritor is better for that case, IMO. At least at 5th level+.

While there are some other good Exploits, I wasn't suggesting the extra Arcanist levels for that, but rather for additional moldable talents. If Quick Study works with the Witch moldable talent, then indeed Arcanist 1/Witch 1 would be the most bang for your buck.

Plus, Avatar does CAM to AC already, doesn't hobble you, and grants two talents (even if one is nature,) and a martial tradition.

Didn't know about Avatar, that's pretty nice. Oracle should stack though (one replaces your Dex, one adds an additional bonus), and doesn't hinder your casting either.

[Kitsuneymg]

While there are some other good Exploits, I wasn't suggesting the extra Arcanist levels for that, but rather for additional moldable talents. If Quick Study works with the Witch moldable talent, then indeed Arcanist 1/Witch 1 would be the most bang for your buck.

Didn't know about Avatar, that's pretty nice. Oracle should stack though (one replaces your Dex, one adds an additional bonus), and doesn't hinder your casting either.

Oracle won’t stack. They are both untyped. Which in pathfinder means the type is *stat-name*. I supposed you could do like an assimar with high wis and cha and make wins your CAM and add both of those, but that seems a touch worse than Dex/Wis.

As for not knowing about avatar, that kinda thing is the exact reason I made this guide. To distill the best bag for your buck dips for caster role characters! Mostly so I don’t have to remember them all either.

I’m working on a gish dip guide too. But it’s either going to be super short (magus, faithful shepherd, iron mage hedge witch) or very long. And I haven’t figured out which is more useful yet.

[SangoProduction]

Nice. I approve of this.

[vasilidor]

Champion medium gets all of their odd level talents as moldable talents. they are only low casters unless they take the Archmage spirit though.

[Kitsuneymg]

Champion medium gets all of their odd level talents as moldable talents. they are only low casters unless they take the Archmage spirit though.

I don’t know a ton about the medium class. Do they have any cool tricks they can do when not selecting archmage that might make them stand out? Regardless, I’ll do some digging and add them somewhere. Based on what little I know of them, they’re gonna be niche at best.

[SangoProduction]

I disagree that Thaumaturge is a bad dip. A global unconditional +2 caster level for the cost of 1.5 talents on average?
Even just the base line version of Forbidden Lore, you take 7 casts, on average, in order to ruin 1 caster level, and so you're still netting positive for most of 14 casts. You'd have to be using a very buff-heavy build (which rarely benefits too heavily from CL, outside of duration) in order to even break even.

Now. There is room for misinterpreting the last line as both a cumulative and an expanding penalty. But no, I believe it was just clarifying what it meant by a cumulative penalty.

But even if you hate the chance that you could actually roll snake eyes right when you need to do so the least: there are archetypes that make it essentially a non-penalty. Like Experimentalist, which takes a move action, and then only a 10% chance of getting nauseated...for 1 round... (which doesn't matter as you don't need a full action, especially on a mount / companion), and sickened (which does kind of suck, but it's relatively minor).

And there is no chance, however small, of the penalties ramping up. And that's not to mention the fact that he also gets free alteration traits for his effort.

[Zanos]

A 15% chance of blowing your action completely and any costs associated with it seems pretty awful to me.

[SangoProduction]

A 15% chance of blowing your action completely and any costs associated with it seems pretty awful to me.

If we assume you are using 1:1 CL-scaling abilities, aka the ones that best scale with CL (like Destruction or Creation), then it's actually pretty easy to math out the break point on where the +2 is no longer worth the chance of losing your action.

At CL 13, missing 15% of the time is the equivalent of losing 2 CL on average. So, even just as a dip, using the basic Forbidden Lore, it's still going to be a net positive on average for the vast majority (if not the entirety) of your character's career. And once you get to the point where it's no longer worth the risk, just... retrain.


Of course. Just because it's better on average doesn't mean it's always good for the risk-adverse. Don't let me tell you that you are having bad wrong fun.

Now, for the purposes of DC boosting, then you are adding a 15% failure chance in exchange for a 5% additional chance of the enemy failing their save.... Is a lot more complicated, as the chance varies how you measure the "improvement."
Regardless, being used for purely DC boosting is, in my opinion, not an incredible use, unless that is more of a side effect rather than your main goal.

[icefractal]

Also, the chance of losing your action is only a problem when you do it in combat.
Counting as two levels higher for buffs is pretty nice.

I'd call Thaumaturge situational, but quite good for some characters.

[vasilidor]

Champion Mediums
they do not do well as a dip, but would themselves benefit from a dip in my opinion. In themselves they are a very versatile class and able to change their abilities from day to day, both combat talents and magic talents that they gained on odd levels being changeable and The spirits give different bonuses based on level. the spirit bonus for instance gives a +1, +1 per 4 levels, to a bonus determined by the spirit chosen. the guardian gets DR and energy resistance for instance to almost all forms of damage. the Archmage gets it to caster level.

you can also get a changeable bonus feat from some spirits.

[Kitsuneymg]

Champion Mediums
they do not do well as a dip, but would themselves benefit from a dip in my opinion. In themselves they are a very versatile class and able to change their abilities from day to day, both combat talents and magic talents that they gained on odd levels being changeable and The spirits give different bonuses based on level. the spirit bonus for instance gives a +1, +1 per 4 levels, to a bonus determined by the spirit chosen. the guardian gets DR and energy resistance for instance to almost all forms of damage. the Archmage gets it to caster level.

you can also get a changeable bonus feat from some spirits.

Hrm. I’ll have to look at that then. It’s possible that a dedicated crafter might like some levels of champion medium.

[Ground Thing]

For incanter, it's still probably blue or Purple for a one-level dip, but as of USoP, I believe, they changed it to stagger the bonuses you get, so you only get one benefit each odd level. So you'd need to go three levels if you wanted 2 specializations or 5+ (beyond a dip) for more than that. Still +1 CL and a bonus talent are a pretty good reason to dip a level.

[vasilidor]

two specializations that only cost one point only count as one for purposes of when you can get them. so the latest you can get them all is level 5.

[Xavion]

The specialist's staff is tricky too thanks to being a pseudo scaling item it's got a set crafting cost of 37.5k, while having a value varying based off character level. Buying one for 3000gp is super GM dependent in the first place as a result, particularly given the bonus talent and sphere are set at creation.

Plus if it works like a scaling item normally does the GM should be counting the remaining 72k against your WBL as you level up.

It's a good item, but it's vastly more GM dependent than most items.

[Kitsuneymg]

The specialist's staff is tricky too thanks to being a pseudo scaling item it's got a set crafting cost of 37.5k, while having a value varying based off character level. Buying one for 3000gp is super GM dependent in the first place as a result, particularly given the bonus talent and sphere are set at creation.

Plus if it works like a scaling item normally does the GM should be counting the remaining 72k against your WBL as you level up.

It's a good item, but it's vastly more GM dependent than most items.

This is true. The fact it’s a scaling item that isn’t in the scaling item area, and the fact it uses class and character level in its text is why I call it dysfunctional.

[Xavion]

Well, I asked and as a result it was clarified by author to only scale with incanter level at least.

In other classes though, I feel like the power of Hedgewitch 2 as a dip is probably being underestimated here as you don't even seem to mention it? Hedgewitch 2 seems like it'd be easily green, and there's an argument for blue. Purple would be stretching it a bit much due to the loss of CL, but it's way better as a dip than Hedgewitch 1.

This is because Hedgewitch Secrets are pretty easily the best class talents in both base Pathfinder and spheres, but you don't get it till Hedgewitch 2. Add in the class items which grant you an extra secret and path benefit, and that Extra Secret can be taken any number of times, and a hedgewitch 2 dip can be a significant help for a lot of builds. Like, there's a secret which gives you a hex and hexes were purple, but you can also get rogue talents, ninja tricks, alchemist discoveries, arcane discoveries, revelations from the heavens, lunar, and solar mysteries, shaman hexes as well as the aforementioned witch hexes, magus arcanas, first level domain powers, investigator talents, versatile performances, 1st level eliciter emotions, and mystic combats. Plus you know, the actual secrets themselves.

Although to be fair, you can only get one each of arcane discoveries, mystic combats, and oracle revelations, but the best are really limited only be the amount of secrets you're willing to throw at it. The sheer amount of options mean any build that can eat the -1 CL can probably benefit though, as that's easily hundreds of options.

That and the aforementioned incanter issue, in that if you take a sphere specialization you don't get your other specializations until level 3, as they fairly justifiably nerfed how dippable it was in Ultimate.

[Kitsuneymg]

Well, I asked and as a result it was clarified by author to only scale with incanter level at least.

In other classes though, I feel like the power of Hedgewitch 2 as a dip is probably being underestimated here as you don't even seem to mention it? Hedgewitch 2 seems like it'd be easily green, and there's an argument for blue. Purple would be stretching it a bit much due to the loss of CL, but it's way better as a dip than Hedgewitch 1.

This is because Hedgewitch Secrets are pretty easily the best class talents in both base Pathfinder and spheres, but you don't get it till Hedgewitch 2. Add in the class items which grant you an extra secret and path benefit, and that Extra Secret can be taken any number of times, and a hedgewitch 2 dip can be a significant help for a lot of builds. Like, there's a secret which gives you a hex and hexes were purple, but you can also get rogue talents, ninja tricks, alchemist discoveries, arcane discoveries, revelations from the heavens, lunar, and solar mysteries, shaman hexes as well as the aforementioned witch hexes, magus arcanas, first level domain powers, investigator talents, versatile performances, 1st level eliciter emotions, and mystic combats. Plus you know, the actual secrets themselves.

Although to be fair, you can only get one each of arcane discoveries, mystic combats, and oracle revelations, but the best are really limited only be the amount of secrets you're willing to throw at it. The sheer amount of options mean any build that can eat the -1 CL can probably benefit though, as that's easily hundreds of options.

That and the aforementioned incanter issue, in that if you take a sphere specialization you don't get your other specializations until level 3, as they fairly justifiably nerfed how dippable it was in Ultimate.

Edit: I see. It didn’t have the 2. Oops. I’ll add that in later. 2 is better than 1 yes. 100%. I guess I just got ahead of myself. It’s green at best though. Loss of CL means loss of DC and falling behind in scaling.

I just don’t think access to a lot of stuff is worth the cl loss considering you can just take the class you want already and come out ahead. At least for oracle, hexes, etc. Though once you lose CL, there’s probably not much of a reason not to take 4 3/4 CL levels.

[RandomPeasant]

At CL 13, missing 15% of the time is the equivalent of losing 2 CL on average.

Not really, because people are risk averse. The downside of missing your cast has a much larger impact than the upside of getting a marginally better effect.

[SangoProduction]

Not really, because people are risk averse. The downside of missing your cast has a much larger impact than the upside of getting a marginally better effect.

That's why I did specify that it's best on the 1:1 scaling spheres. Adding 2d6 damage and a 15% failure chance far and away blows out of the water expected value of the action, compared to not taking that, when you're base CL 2. 200% (damage) * 85% (chance of success) = 170%.

And you can plot that relation in a graph until you find the point where the expected value evens out / goes negative (<= 100%). And of course, using only the level 1 version of the ability, since this is a dip guide, so keep it +2.

And because it's not necessarily active all the time, and you need to maximize your chance of success, over the power of a success, you can just choose to not use it in that instance (just like power attack).

That's still disregarding the occasionally useful bit about being able to temporarily pass break points, for the less 1:1 spheres. Like telekinesis requiring like CL 57 to be useful, or something like that, when you're CL 55.

[Kitsuneymg]

That's why I did specify that it's best on the 1:1 scaling spheres. Adding 2d6 damage and a 15% failure chance far and away blows out of the water expected value of the action, compared to not taking that, when you're base CL 2. 200% (damage) * 85% (chance of success) = 170%.

And you can plot that relation in a graph until you find the point where the expected value evens out / goes negative (<= 100%). And of course, using only the level 1 version of the ability, since this is a dip guide, so keep it +2.

And because it's not necessarily active all the time, and you need to maximize your chance of success, over the power of a success, you can just choose to not use it in that instance (just like power attack).

That's still disregarding the occasionally useful bit about being able to temporarily pass break points, for the less 1:1 spheres. Like telekinesis requiring like CL 57 to be useful, or something like that, when you're CL 55.

For destruction, I personally care more about the increased save DC than an extra 2 dice. And while you’re correct that you can maintain an average DPR the way you describe, it doesn’t take into account the loss of riders. I also don’t like boosting average dpr at the cost of adding a bump at zero to my probability distribution.

I can see someone else not minding that. But I think there are a lot of classes I’d dip for +2 cl before I’d bother looking at thaumaturge.

Old telekinesis had the ability to send bad guys to the moon. So it was cool. New TK is somewhat blah because linear acceleration has a range limit.

[RandomPeasant]

That's why I did specify that it's best on the 1:1 scaling spheres. Adding 2d6 damage and a 15% failure chance far and away blows out of the water expected value of the action, compared to not taking that, when you're base CL 2. 200% (damage) * 85% (chance of success) = 170%.

Risk aversion means the EV calculation is not linear. People would rather get $40 than a lottery for $0 or $100. Yes, at 2nd level it's a great deal (unless, of course, the CL 2 damage is good enough for whatever you're doing), but because of the risk element the value declines much faster than a simple "what's the expected damage" calculation.

What Kitsuneymg is describing is exactly what I mean by being risk averse.

[SangoProduction]

Risk aversion means the EV calculation is not linear. People would rather get $40 than a lottery for $0 or $100. Yes, at 2nd level it's a great deal (unless, of course, the CL 2 damage is good enough for whatever you're doing), but because of the risk element the value declines much faster than a simple "what's the expected damage" calculation.

What Kitsuneymg is describing is exactly what I mean by being risk averse.

Well, I'm glad we agree that, risk aversion would factor into your choice of dip. But that doesn't make it a bad dip.

Do note: Risk aversion does not actually change the Expected Value, which is a based on an objective function.
What you're trying to describe for is the subjective value of the effect. Which...is subjective, and varies between people...because it is subjective.
And the subjective value doesn't even have to be tied to the Expected Value in any actual way. "That Pokemon looks ugly, so I don't care if it's strong," is a quick and dirty example to prove the point.