Hearthstone 22: Evening the Odds

[Kish]

Sindragosa has at least one good matchup: the Curator. Hero power to deal 2 on command means he

She. Sindragosa is a she. Don't know how you could mistake the voice.

My King Togwaggle defeated Putricide handily, using one of his Treasures to flood my side of the board with four Growing Oozes, and another to disintegrate Putricide's sole Growing Ooze and Boogeymonster.

[AmberVael]

Sindragosa is pretty nasty against Toggwaggle, who tends to get a lot of spells from treasures and plays slow.

I have yet to win with Toggwaggle. His base deck is terrible and his treasure pool is unreliable. Bag of stuffing is not a treasure you want.

[Resileaf]

I got my win with Toggwaggle by using a treasure to transform all of my hand minions into the ape that buffs everyone by +1/+1 on the field when you use your hero power, used the spell that reduces the cost of every minion in your hand to 0 for the turn, played 4 in a single turn, and buffed my entire board.

[Zevox]

She. Sindragosa is a she. Don't know how you could mistake the voice.

My King Togwaggle defeated Putricide handily, using one of his Treasures to flood my side of the board with four Growing Oozes, and another to disintegrate Putricide's sole Growing Ooze and Boogeymonster.

Lack of hearing it much, mainly. Almost never see her card played and I played her exactly once for this Brawl so far.

Speaking of Putricide though, I really question his viability. 0 mana secrets are nice and all, but they don't seem strong enough to carry his deck against the other bosses' advantages to me. I lost pretty badly the one time I played him - don't recall who the opponent was though.

[Joran]

Nerfs incoming: https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/bl...00000003759965

Mana Wyrm: from 1 mana to 2 mana.

Giggling Inventor: from 5 mana to 7 mana.

Aviana: from 9 mana to 10 mana.

Surprised Spreading Plague or Branching Paths didn't get a look.

[Resileaf]

Wow, those are some pretty substantial nerfs. Mana wyrm is particularly surprising, it's been a staple of mage decks since forever.
I imagine this is going to break the giggling inventor, though. For 7 mana, I expect a lot better than three minions with low stats.
And Aviana's change nearly breaks the current druid combo (can still work with innervate), and that's not something I'm necessarily going to complain about because I hate fighting it.

[Psyren]

Wow, those are some pretty substantial nerfs. Mana wyrm is particularly surprising, it's been a staple of mage decks since forever.
I imagine this is going to break the giggling inventor, though. For 7 mana, I expect a lot better than three minions with low stats.

Big ouch on the wyrm indeed. My Tempo Mage is going to have a much harder time against other aggro decks like Zoo.

A Giggling nerf I saw coming, but my Odd Rogue is still sad. Now I can't Inventor into Slayer as a big lategame swing play And where are all these Quest Rogues that are dominating the meta right now anyway?

And Aviana's change nearly breaks the current druid combo (can still work with innervate), and that's not something I'm necessarily going to complain about because I hate fighting it.

You can still get it off with Innervate but this breaks Psychmelon, making it much harder to do so regularly. Not that I would ever play Wild anyway.

[Tvtyrant]

Nerfs incoming: https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/bl...00000003759965

Mana Wyrm: from 1 mana to 2 mana.

Giggling Inventor: from 5 mana to 7 mana.

Aviana: from 9 mana to 10 mana.

Surprised Spreading Plague or Branching Paths didn't get a look.

These all benefit me personally, but seem kind of silly? None of these felt oppressive, although Aviana is annoying.

[Rodin]

Surprised Spreading Plague or Branching Paths didn't get a look.

As always, I remain very surprised by what does not receive a nerf. I think all of the nerfs were warranted in the grand scheme of things, but Mana Wyrm is really only important because it's in the Classic set. Tempo/Aggro mage isn't OP in the slightest at the minute, so I'm really surprised they chose now to make the change instead of rolling it out with the new expansion that caused the change to be necessary. "Your staple card is nerfed, but here's a set of cool spells we couldn't implement without nerfing it" stings a lot less than "Your staple card is nerfed, suck it up pansies".

What gets me about Spreading plague is that it's already pretty much Giggling Inventor+. If you have less than 3 minions on board, chances are the Druid will laugh off your puny damage and thrash you. If you have 3 minions, the 3/15 of Taunt that Plague summons is easily as powerful as Giggling is and isn't weak to Blood Knight.

Frankly, Frozen Throne can't rotate out fast enough for me.

[Spore]

Mana Wyrm is odd.

[Anarion]

So, the giggling inventor nerf is warranted. That card is everywhere. Even if you're not seeing it as all that powerful given the specific deck you might be playing at present, the card is single-handedly keeping aggro archetypes out of the meta (btw, Zoo warlock is benefitting a lot from these changes). Also, quest rogue with deathknight out can't play two inventors in the same turn anymore. Yay!

Mana wyrm, I suspect is one of those future cards nerfs. I actually think aggro mage was a good meta deck at the moment, it keeps some of the control warlock decks down in particular but was not obviously too strong. Nerfing mana wyrm will make that deck a lot weaker, and hopefully will be compensated with new good mage spells in the future.

For standard, the combo here is almost certainly going to boost up the tempo warlock decks and perhaps aggressive paladin decks.

[Zevox]

Nerfs incoming: https://playhearthstone.com/en-us/bl...00000003759965

Mana Wyrm: from 1 mana to 2 mana.

Giggling Inventor: from 5 mana to 7 mana.

Aviana: from 9 mana to 10 mana.

Surprised Spreading Plague or Branching Paths didn't get a look.

****. And here I was thinking we might actually get through an expansion without balance changes for the first time in the last... what's it been now, a year? Year and a half? More? I've lost track. And goddamn, I haven't been more ticked at their choices for balance changes since Firey War Axe.

Spoiler: Rant

Show

Giggling Inventor is literally the only card to come out of Boomsday that I just straight-up, no-caveats like. A strong but not overpowering defensive card in the vein of Sludge Belcher, who also has the side-effect of giving some life to tech cards we haven't seen much if at all before, like Mossy Horror and Blood Knight? Perfect. Exactly the type of thing I want to see. And wow, is that one hell of an overreaction to it. I know some people thought it was too strong (obviously I disagree), but bumping it up by 2 mana? Seriously? 1 mana up would be a rough enough nerf already that it might kill it, but 2 will make it unplayable for sure. It's not even close to comparable to 7 mana cards.

And Mana Wyrm? Seriously? A card that's been just fine for five years they're just now deciding needs a nerf? When they can't even claim it's a key part of the most defining meta deck like they could with Firey War Axe back in the day, since Tempo Mage is just one of many good decks at the moment? I call BS. This isn't a balance decision, this is Blizzard deliberately steadily nerfing the strong cards from the Classic set in order to make decks steadily more reliant on new releases. Which completely undermines the whole supposed point of making the Classic set evergreen. Screw them for changes like this one.

Yeah, damn it. I swear, if I ever decide to stop playing the game entirely, it will be because of crap decisions like this.

[Rynjin]

Hearthstone pros (or at least Kibler and Trump) have had some pretty decent discussions recently on why Mana Wyrm was likely to get a nerf. it basiclaly constrains design space; a 1/1/3 is already a great statline, and throwing on the ability to grow with very cheap mana spells means it's going to rubberband in usefulness depending on the current set.

Best case, it's an insane snowball; an instant pick in a meta that has a lot of viable, cheap spells for Mage and half-decent to meh in any other meta.

Frankly it probably could have used a rework instead of a nerf to make it more perennial. Something like "Gain +1 attack THIS TURN for each spell cast" or even "gain +1 attack this turn equal to the mana cost of the first spell you cast this turn", something like that; makes it a good early game card for tempo decks (since it can trade up if they play a low level spell on turns 2/3) or a good late game card instead, rather than this dominating board presence from turn 1 until it dies.

[Mando Knight]

Everything still has to deal with Druid, which got away scott-free here--the class would suffer by proxy if the nerfs allowed its counter-decks to gain prominence, but almost everything that loses to Giggling Inventor also loses to Spreading Plague. Mana Wyrm is a "we want design space" nerf, and nerfing Aviana doesn't touch Standard (and Juicy Psychmelon is still very powerful even if it can't draw both Kun and Aviana at the same time).

[Zevox]

And yet it's been totally fine for years now, and wasn't nerfed during periods when aggressive mages were much more prevalent than they are today. Yeah, not buying it. Mana Wyrm's fine, just like Firey War Axe was - all this does is make Mage that much more dependent on cards from new sets by denying them one of their good classic cards.

[Mando Knight]

And yet it's been totally fine for years now, and wasn't nerfed during periods when aggressive mages were much more prevalent than they are today. Yeah, not buying it. Mana Wyrm's fine, just like Firey War Axe was - all this does is make Mage that much more dependent on cards from new sets by denying them one of their good classic cards.

Mana Wyrm and Fiery War Axe were "fine" for years because they were basically the only good early game plays in those classes' basic/classic sets (Mage also has Frostbolt, but Warrior doesn't have a single good early game card left). This is a "design space" nerf in that Blizzard wants to be able to push new, different early-game options without letting the class explode into an all-powerful aggro deck (like what happened with Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman in the past), but cripples the classes' early games into relying on whatever new cards are in Standard the way Paladin is.

[Zevox]

Mana Wyrm and Fiery War Axe were "fine" for years because they were basically the only good early game plays in those classes' basic/classic sets (Mage also has Frostbolt, but Warrior doesn't have a single good early game card left). This is a "design space" nerf in that Blizzard wants to be able to push new, different early-game options without letting the class explode into an all-powerful aggro deck (like what happened with Pirate Warrior and Aggro Shaman in the past), but cripples the classes' early games into relying on whatever new cards are in Standard the way Paladin is.

Mage has had other good early game cards to go with Mana Wyrm before. Remember Mech Mage? Or Flamewaker? Hell, it still does now, with Sorcerer's apprentice and the like that make up Tempo Mage's early game. And other than that part of the remark you seem to be agreeing with me.

[Anarion]

Everything still has to deal with Druid, which got away scott-free here--the class would suffer by proxy if the nerfs allowed its counter-decks to gain prominence, but almost everything that loses to Giggling Inventor also loses to Spreading Plague. Mana Wyrm is a "we want design space" nerf, and nerfing Aviana doesn't touch Standard (and Juicy Psychmelon is still very powerful even if it can't draw both Kun and Aviana at the same time).

Giggling still hits token druid, which has been running the card along with whatever the name of that taunt buff guy is, something Shell Protector. So people will have to rejigger token Druid a bit, and if that deck gets weaker, it will also make it easier to play around other druid archetypes.

And yet it's been totally fine for years now, and wasn't nerfed during periods when aggressive mages were much more prevalent than they are today. Yeah, not buying it. Mana Wyrm's fine, just like Firey War Axe was - all this does is make Mage that much more dependent on cards from new sets by denying them one of their good classic cards.

Hmm, I honestly just think I disagree. Like, I hear that it's frustrating to have a card you've liked and even a card that have been around a long time and see them change, and that it's particularly frustrating when it means you're reliant on new cards to make viable decks. But, well, first off, Giggling was broken. I've been expecting a nerf for the last few months. It's especially prevalent at legend, where I've been easily seeing it in 50% or more of decks. It's one thing to have a strong card, it's another to have the entire meta warped around it. Having tech cards doesn't help either in that case, it just turns the game into a coinflip about who drew which card of a small set of two to four.

Regarding mana wyrm, if it's any consolation, I suspect that Blizzard will make most of those early game cards common or perhaps rare at worst. It's very infrequent that they make the cheap stuff legendary or epic, and even when they do, it's often misleadingly cheap like Arugal and Pyros (both of which cost 2 mana but are really bad 2-drops). Yes, there's usually one format-warping cheap legendary floating around (see: Patches, Keleseth) but it's usually neutral and would be a desired crafting choice regardless of what cards get nerfed.

[Zevox]

Hmm, I honestly just think I disagree. Like, I hear that it's frustrating to have a card you've liked and even a card that have been around a long time and see them change, and that it's particularly frustrating when it means you're reliant on new cards to make viable decks. But, well, first off, Giggling was broken. I've been expecting a nerf for the last few months. It's especially prevalent at legend, where I've been easily seeing it in 50% or more of decks. It's one thing to have a strong card, it's another to have the entire meta warped around it. Having tech cards doesn't help either in that case, it just turns the game into a coinflip about who drew which card of a small set of two to four.

Regarding mana wyrm, if it's any consolation, I suspect that Blizzard will make most of those early game cards common or perhaps rare at worst. It's very infrequent that they make the cheap stuff legendary or epic, and even when they do, it's often misleadingly cheap like Arugal and Pyros (both of which cost 2 mana but are really bad 2-drops). Yes, there's usually one format-warping cheap legendary floating around (see: Patches, Keleseth) but it's usually neutral and would be a desired crafting choice regardless of what cards get nerfed.

Giggling being popular is totally fine I'd say - Sludge Belcher was likely that prominent back in the day too, being run in every non-aggro deck, yet he never got nerfed. And Giggling Inventor is filling precisely the same role: a strong mid-game speed bump that's not easily removed by most single cards. We haven't had one as good for that since Belcher rotated out, and now we'll be back to not having one at all.

And no, that's no consolation on Mana Wyrm. Because honestly, I don't care that much about Mana Wyrm itself - I hate aggro, it hasn't been in any decks I've played in a long time. What ticks me off is what it represents: Blizzard's continuous series of nerfs and Hall of Faming of the classic set. (Mana Wyrm in particular just gets my gourd more than most because I see no balance justification for it at all, not even in the short-term.) Because when rotations were introduced, they made the classic set evergreen, saying that it would represent a baseline of cards that players would always have available, as a stable base for anyone who might take a break and come back or the like. And I think that was the right call. But it doesn't matter in the slightest if they're not willing to let the classic set have good cards that people will actually want to use, and it feels very much like we're well on the path to the day when it will have none left. Already we've lost Ragnaros, Sylvanas, Azure Drake, Ice Block, Firey War Axe, and Rockbiter Weapon, along with more niche-useful cards like Ice Lance, Conceal, Power Overwhelming, Coldlight Oracle, and Molten Giant. Execute and Hex were fortunate enough to still be usable even after their nerfs, but most haven't been so lucky. Plus there's the many that were adjusted around the time when the rotation system first went into effect, which I wasn't entirely comfortable with even then, but I at least thought they would be the last of it as Blizzard figured out the power level they wanted the classic set at for the game's future. Boy was I wrong about that.

And now we can add Mana Wyrm to that pile, reduced to being a maybe-better Mana Addict. What's next, Wild Growth? Frostbolt and Fireball? Power Word: Shield? Because I sure don't have any reason to expect them to stop at this point. The Hall of Fame in particular is as regular a part of Hearthstone as new sets it seems, and nerfs to classic cards have become more common the past couple of years.

[Rynjin]

I'm also with Kibler on that one; most of the "problem cards" are from the Classic set. Particularly for classes like Druid. Most of the OMGWTFBBQ power level Druid cards really aren't that much of an issue in a vacuum...but Wild Growth and Nourish making the Druid consistently hit 10 mana by turn 6 MAKE them that OP.

Something needs to be done about the Classic set cards being so much more powerful than any released set, though I do also favor his suggestion of rotating cards TEMPORARILY rather than permanently or nerfing them.

Hearthstone's meta, looking back, has been surprisingly stale in the grand scheme, with decks like Miracle Rogue and Exodia Mage never truly dying...merely receding in anticipation of an expansion breathing new life into them and making them dominant again. If Preparation, or Archmage Antonidas, or Equality/Consecrate, etc. weren't perennials, Blizzard would have a lot more design space to experiment with new cards that perform similar roles. EX, what use does Shrink Ray have in a meta where Equality exists? I have it teched into my Odd Mechadin deck, but that's only because I literally can't run Equality and Consecrate.

If Equality was removed from the game for the next year (and added back in nextyear), would Shrink ray be seen as a more viable option? Maybe, maybe not, but it would open up room to experiment, rather than the default question for any new card being "Why is this BETTER than the cards that launched with the game", and if the answer is "No", the card is basically never touched.

Temporarily rotating (or permanently nerfing, for the less desirable option) these cards that have been good to great from day 1 allows for less power creep over time and opens up more interesting avenues to keep the game fresh.

[Zevox]

I'm also with Kibler on that one; most of the "problem cards" are from the Classic set. Particularly for classes like Druid. Most of the OMGWTFBBQ power level Druid cards really aren't that much of an issue in a vacuum...but Wild Growth and Nourish making the Druid consistently hit 10 mana by turn 6 MAKE them that OP.

Something needs to be done about the Classic set cards being so much more powerful than any released set, though I do also favor his suggestion of rotating cards TEMPORARILY rather than permanently or nerfing them.

Hearthstone's meta, looking back, has been surprisingly stale in the grand scheme, with decks like Miracle Rogue and Exodia Mage never truly dying...merely receding in anticipation of an expansion breathing new life into them and making them dominant again. If Preparation, or Archmage Antonidas, or Equality/Consecrate, etc. weren't perennials, Blizzard would have a lot more design space to experiment with new cards that perform similar roles. EX, what use does Shrink Ray have in a meta where Equality exists? I have it teched into my Odd Mechadin deck, but that's only because I literally can't run Equality and Consecrate.

If Equality was removed from the game for the next year (and added back in nextyear), would Shrink ray be seen as a more viable option? Maybe, maybe not, but it would open up room to experiment, rather than the default question for any new card being "Why is this BETTER than the cards that launched with the game", and if the answer is "No", the card is basically never touched.

Temporarily rotating (or permanently nerfing, for the less desirable option) these cards that have been good to great from day 1 allows for less power creep over time and opens up more interesting avenues to keep the game fresh.

Such a system might seem preferable to those who play consistently, but I think it fails at what the classic set being evergreen is supposed to do. If which cards are available from the classic set varies from year to year, then there really isn't any stable set of cards that players who take breaks can expect to have at all - they might easily come back and find that nothing they want to use is available.

No, I think they should have stuck to what that stated design intention implied: if the Classic cards were to be the baseline of the game, then new sets should always have been built with them at that power level in mind. Those cards define what each class is and what play style(s) it's good at, and expansions should build upon, not try to reinvent that. Just don't print a card like Shrink Ray, make something else that actually has a role the classic set hasn't already done better. Keep in mind that Druid is the Ramp class when you're making their high-mana cards, and maybe don't give them something as crazy as Ultimate Infestation because of that. If that "restricts design space," then that's a restriction that I feel should be there, because it helps keep the game approachable.

[Tvtyrant]

I got one win away from Rank 3 in Wild, then got stomped in the mirror. I have never got to rank 3 and if my habit of winning 4 then losing 4 holds I won't be this month.

I managed to play the same guy two more times :(

[Joran]

I would have preferred the Mana Wyrm to be nerfed to a 1/2 stat line. It'd be playable and there's other cards similar like Lightwarden.

2 mana Mana Wyrm is unplayable.

[Spore]

I really hope they take, the Izzet idea og creatures gaining value and generating tempo from cast spells for future expansions. Flamewaker was one of my favorite cards. And I enjoy Face/Tempo Mage a lot. I like control mage too but it is quite slow and you can often predict your win or loss 20 turns in advance. But since this is HS and rng is part of the game you still have a chance so giving ruims your winrate.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

I don't really have a problem with old decks still being meta relevant, tbh. A diverse meta would have room for old and new decks alike, and there's a lot of enjoyment to be had from a wealth of options. Then again, I care more for deck piloting than deck construction, so that shapes things.

[Psyren]

I would have preferred the Mana Wyrm to be nerfed to a 1/2 stat line. It'd be playable and there's other cards similar like Lightwarden.

2 mana Mana Wyrm is unplayable.

Yeah I'd rather a health nerf than this. They also ruined Odd Mage which was struggling to begin with.

[Resileaf]

Does mage have any viable 1-drops now? What could possibly replace that card?

[Anarion]

Because when rotations were introduced, they made the classic set evergreen, saying that it would represent a baseline of cards that players would always have available, as a stable base for anyone who might take a break and come back or the like. And I think that was the right call.

I think it was the wrong one. If the game becomes boring, people stop playing and it stops getting supported. Even if you, individually, enjoy coming back from time to time with your evergreen cards, I don't think that's representative of the casual population or the infrequent playing population either. Most of those people are not going to come back and start playing because their old Sylvanus is still around. Blizz should make the game approachable for new and returning players by ensuring that whatever cards happen to be out at a given time offer a relatively quick and cheap option for making some good decks. That's why you always want to design some strong cards at common and rare, and ensure that new mechanics appear on good cards across multiple rarities. So that at any point that someone picks up the game, they can quickly get into it, even if they have to spend time (or money, which is the real goal) to play several different decks or certain expensive lategame strategies.

Does mage have any viable 1-drops now? What could possibly replace that card?

Control Mage has Arcane Artificer, which costs one mana, but is not actually a 1-drop (though it could be in some formats, just not this one). For comparison though, Druid does not currently have a standard legal 1-drop minion. Neither does Rogue. Shaman has 3 but they all suck. The other classes all have a good one for at least some strategies. The best Mage 1-drop now if you're running an aggressive deck is probably Fire Fly (and his buddy Flame Elemental).
Edit: Although SecretKeeper might be worth playing around with, especially if hunter gets more popular again.

[Psyren]

Does mage have any viable 1-drops now? What could possibly replace that card?

Artificer is still viable but it's a control card, so wouldn't replace Wyrm anyway.

Secretkeeper might not be too bad in Tempo Mage.

[Anarion]

Artificer is still viable but it's a control card, so wouldn't replace Wyrm anyway.

Secretkeeper might not be too bad in Tempo Mage.

So, the way this looks is that running secretkeeper probably means you need a 4th, maybe a 5th secret, which is a little dicey. I might consider 1 secretkeeper and a 4th secret in place of the two mana wyrms, with the hope of adding a little more disruption rather than trying to just do a lesser version of early aggro.