Help Choose A Paladin Tank Oath?

[Blughuh99]

I am going to be playing in a new homebrew campaign soon with 4 other players and need some advice on how to build a defender type Paladin.

We are starting at level 3 using standard array with the option to point buy. Anything goes as long as it's published material but no Unearthed Arcana without DM approval.

The other players in the group are comprised of an Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter (approved by DM), Swashbuckler Rogue, Divine Soul Sorcerer, and the last player that hasn't decided but leaning towards a Warlock or Druid. I want to play a Paladin to buddy up with the Blood Hunter to help with the Lycan's Bloodlust through Bless and later Aura of Protection and it will make for some good roleplay. Because of that I want to get this Paladin to 6 asap before I consider any multi-classing. I have no idea how long the campaign will run so I'd like to avoid any complicated build that "comes online" too late. I'm stuck on which Oath to take.

That said, I think I need to exclude Oath of Vengeance, Oath of Conquest, and Oathbreaker. Oath of Vengeance seems too focused on damage and I'm not sure how to roleplay an Oath of Conquest or Oathbreaker in a good-aligned party. Feel free to play devil's advocate on those, otherwise I think I've narrowed it down to Oath of the Ancients, Oath of the Crown, Oath of Devotion, or Oath of Redemption.

Any help is appreciated!

[CTurbo]

I'd go Ancients with the Protection Fighting Style. No need to multiclass at all.

Start Half-Elf with 16 Str, 10 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 16 Cha
Spend your first 2 ASIs bumping Str and Cha to 18

[Blughuh99]

I'd go Ancients with the Protection Fighting Style. No need to multiclass at all.

Thanks for the suggestion Cturbo. Can you explain in a little more detail for Ancients vs. the others?

[CTurbo]

Thanks for the suggestion Cturbo. Can you explain in a little more detail for Ancients vs. the others?

Ancients has the best tankiest level 7 Aura for starters.

[Blughuh99]

Ancients has the best tankiest level 7 Aura for starters.

Spell damage resistance is definitely powerful and I do like how it covers that weakness on myself and the Blood Hunter. Assuming the last player picks a Druid do you think there'd be too much overlap in Nature magic between us? I think they're building for heals and support.

[CTurbo]

Spell damage resistance is definitely powerful and I do like how it covers that weakness on myself and the Blood Hunter. Assuming the last player picks a Druid do you think there'd be too much overlap in Nature magic between us? I think they're building for heals and support.

No I wouldn't worry about overlap. if anything, the Druid can support the characters in the back while you support the characters on the frontline. Your Aura is only 10ft away from you until really late.

[Angelalex242]

Absolutely Ancients is best for defense. Make sure to max out charisma for tanking purposes. That +5 will save the ass of your friends.

[Blughuh99]

Thanks guys, sounds like Ancients might be the way to go.

Given our party has a Rogue and a Blood Hunter in the party, is there anything I can do to help them do more damage beyond the Ancients abilities?

[kenGarff]

I was told by others that even as an ancients paladin, a defensively-inclined oath, your smite will do tons of NOVA damage. I don't know how big the difference in NOVA potential between an ancients and vengeance paladin is but at least that's what I was told XD

[BlizzardMayne]

My favorite Paladin Oath for Tanking is Conquest, and I don't think it's incompatible with a good party. I'm playing one now, in a good party, and I've adapted a personality that I feel follows the tenets of Conquest without being evil. Simply model their personality with a bit of self-righteous arrogance, and you'll see that you can play cooperatively and still work to conquer. Your law is the best law, if you want something done right, do it yourself - type of attitude.

[sithlordnergal]

I would go with Oath of the Ancients, with the Defense fighting style. If your DM allows feats, take Sentinal to make sure attention is on you. Now, if your DM also allows multiclassing, I suggest snagging levels of Sorcerer for the Shield spell. Mixing Plate armor, a normal shield, Shield of Faith, Defense fighting style, and the Shield spell will give you an AC of 28.

Mix that with Sentinal and possibly War Caster, and you have an insanely tough tank that will make sure enemies keep their eyes on you. Of course, downside is that if you want the auras as soon as possible, you'll have to wait a bit.

But to be honest, a Paladin is tanky as is without the sorcerer levels.

[unusualsuspect]

Instead of dipping Sorcerer, you could dip Hexblade instead. 2 short-slot 1st level spell slots is perfect for the Shield that comes as a bonus spell selection, you pick up Cha as the single attribute that matters (grab enough Str and/or Dex for your preferred armor), you pick up a nifty way to make the BBEG really not want to ignore you (Double Hex 'em to Vex 'em), and you can do some entertaining roleplay as the balance between the light (Oath of the Ancients) and the shadows (Hexblade), either by finding the Ying in the Yang or whathaveyou, or by hunting the Shadows for beasts that would threaten the Light.

Bonus: you don't have to choose between boosting your melee and defensive/class-based capabilities - it's all charisma, baby. Grab Eldritch Blast to fill a common paladin weakness at range, and Warlock 2/Agonizing Blast if you want to always be reliable in melee or at range.

[djreynolds]

Compelled duel is a good spell, especially if the rogue or blood hunter has sentinel feat.

Cannot go wrong with ancients archetype

[Blughuh99]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Feats and multiclassing are both allowed though I don't want to start with multiclassing right off the bat, both to get the level 6 & 7 auras faster and to keep the RP a little simpler. Its difficult for me to roleplay a dual/triple/quadruple multiclass character, especially with different casting classes mixed in and their various sources of power. I'm also wary of making something so strong through multiclassing that it puts too much work on the DM to keep things balanced and entertaining for the whole party.

That said, the Divine Soul Sorcerer dropped from the group and the previously undecided player is going Pact of the Tome Warlock. As a result, the party alignment has shifted from good to neutral so I am entertaining the idea of playing a Lawful Evil Conquest Paladin. While I haven't entirely abandoned the Ancients Paladin I was hoping I could get some advice on how to build the Conquest Paladin? I want to play a Dragonborn with Conquest so I'm thinking stats would be 17 str, 10 dex, 13 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha (standard point-buy after racials). I am having a lot of trouble deciding which feats to take and when, if any. I like Shield Master, Sentinel, Resilient (Con), and Dragonfear (Str) but obviously the ASI's are limited and boosting Charisma seems pretty important for a Conquest Paladin. Any thoughts?

[CTurbo]

Thanks for all the replies everyone.

Feats and multiclassing are both allowed though I don't want to start with multiclassing right off the bat, both to get the level 6 & 7 auras faster and to keep the RP a little simpler. Its difficult for me to roleplay a dual/triple/quadruple multiclass character, especially with different casting classes mixed in and their various sources of power. I'm also wary of making something so strong through multiclassing that it puts too much work on the DM to keep things balanced and entertaining for the whole party.

That said, the Divine Soul Sorcerer dropped from the group and the previously undecided player is going Pact of the Tome Warlock. As a result, the party alignment has shifted from good to neutral so I am entertaining the idea of playing a Lawful Evil Conquest Paladin. While I haven't entirely abandoned the Ancients Paladin I was hoping I could get some advice on how to build the Conquest Paladin? I want to play a Dragonborn with Conquest so I'm thinking stats would be 17 str, 10 dex, 13 con, 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha (standard point-buy after racials). I am having a lot of trouble deciding which feats to take and when, if any. I like Shield Master, Sentinel, Resilient (Con), and Dragonfear (Str) but obviously the ASI's are limited and boosting Charisma seems pretty important for a Conquest Paladin. Any thoughts?

I recommend the Fallen Aasimar instead, but Dragonborn would also work. For Conquests, Cha is far and away the most important stat so I would bump it at level 4, probably take Res(Con) at 8, and then maybe the Dragon Fear feat at 12

[Iuridius]

I'm on a similar issue myself as a "sworn" tank, of the party either go conquest for control or ancient for resilience. I'm more and more inclined to go ancients because my party composition is shifting towards arcane squishies, so control is less than an issue (I would have loved go crown, cool knight-y tenets but disappointing overall mechanics). Also my master is known to not let a strong mechanic run amok and turn most encounters into formalities: he will mod foes with fear immunity and/or wis bonuses

If i may, what would be the best optimization for a single class, vhuman ancient paladin? Sword&Board for sure, but what feats are worth sacrificing an ability cap for? I am looking forward to HAM (rount str and some low level dr), shield master (extra utility and resilience) and warcaster (easy peasy casting). Obviuosly this PC is yet to start from lvl 1.

[Blughuh99]

I'm on a similar issue myself as a "sworn" tank, of the party either go conquest for control or ancient for resilience. I'm more and more inclined to go ancients because my party composition is shifting towards arcane squishies, so control is less than an issue (I would have loved go crown, cool knight-y tenets but disappointing overall mechanics). Also my master is known to not let a strong mechanic run amok and turn most encounters into formalities: he will mod foes with fear immunity and/or wis bonuses

If i may, what would be the best optimization for a single class, vhuman ancient paladin? Sword&Board for sure, but what feats are worth sacrificing an ability cap for? I am looking forward to HAM (rount str and some low level dr), shield master (extra utility and resilience) and warcaster (easy peasy casting). Obviuosly this PC is yet to start from lvl 1.

Ancients sounds like an okay fit for your group so far though you will probably want to play closer to your party once you reach level 6 to give everyone the benefit of your aura(s). I can't say much about your DM but I would hope they wouldn't mod every enemy with fear immunity if you want to play Conquest. Where's the fun in being a fear-mongering warlord if they're all immune to it? I think it's much more fun if they're occasionally immune and you have to use different tactics and teamwork to keep everyone on their feet, but I digress.

As for how to build your Paladin, I actually built my Ancients Paladin before I started on the Conquest Paladin as a variant human so I think I can offer some advice. I assume you are going for a Strength build since you mentioned Heavy Armor Master (HAM) and I'm assuming standard point-buy for stats. I would go 16 str (HAM +1), 10 dex, 14 con (Human +1), 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha (Human +1) after racials and taking HAM as your free feat. Take either Defense or Dueling as your fighting style. Protection doesn't scale very well as it only works against 1 attack and Great Weapon is obviously geared towards damage.

HAM is obviously better earlier and that damage reduction helps with concentration checks against physical damage whereas your level 7 aura will help against magical damage. Keep in mind that the level 6 aura applies to concentration checks as well. Because you're taking HAM, I'm not sure if Warcaster or Resilient (Con) would be worth it on an Ancients Paladin because of how defensive it already is and Paladins don't have much trouble casting their spells with a holy symbol on their shield. If you plan on multiclassing for a spell or attack cantrip (like booming blade) to use with the reaction then Warcaster becomes much more valuable.

I'd also advise against Shield Master in this case. Shield Master works great with a melee ally to give them advantage but you said your party was arcane squishies so I assume they aren't frontline melee and prone gives disadvantage to ranged attacks. If you're going by Jeremy Crawford's latest ruling on twitter/sage advice, you cannot use Shield Master's bonus action to knock someone prone on your turn without completing the Attack action entirely. You'll later be getting awesome saves and spell damage resistance as Ancients so the defensive benefits of Shield Master are also less than stellar.

Sentinel and Inspiring Leader jump out to me here. Sentinel to keep things from getting to your backline squishes or to defend one next to you better. I will say if there is already a lot of control in the party then Sentinel becomes less valuable in this party. Inspiring Leader would give your party a buffer of temporary HP, very nice for those arcane squishies. Make sure not to take too many feats as your ASIs are very important on a Paladin. Charisma is generally more useful than Strength for a defender type Paladin so you want to get that to 20, probably by level 12.

[Iuridius]

As for how to build your Paladin, I actually built my Ancients Paladin before I started on the Conquest Paladin as a variant human so I think I can offer some advice. I assume you are going for a Strength build since you mentioned Heavy Armor Master (HAM) and I'm assuming standard point-buy for stats. I would go 16 str (HAM +1), 10 dex, 14 con (Human +1), 8 int, 10 wis, and 16 cha (Human +1) after racials and taking HAM as your free feat. Take either Defense or Dueling as your fighting style. Protection doesn't scale very well as it only works against 1 attack and Great Weapon is obviously geared towards damage.

flawless assumption, that's how i originally planned my paladin to be before any oath valutation. Now what puzzles me is that, because 3 out of 5 ASI must be taken for scores (maybe 4), i have room for very few feats, and i love feats.

I'd also advise against Shield Master in this case. Shield Master works great with a melee ally to give them advantage but you said your party was arcane squishies so I assume they aren't frontline melee and prone gives disadvantage to ranged attacks. If you're going by Jeremy Crawford's latest ruling on twitter/sage advice, you cannot use Shield Master's bonus action to knock someone prone on your turn without completing the Attack action entirely. You'll later be getting awesome saves and spell damage resistance as Ancients so the defensive benefits of Shield Master are also less than stellar.

true, also most likely our fighter is going to have a shield, in that case he could be the one shoving evildoers to the ground for my smites to land. Also my DM is definitely going for the crawford interpretation

Sentinel and Inspiring Leader jump out to me here. Sentinel to keep things from getting to your backline squishes or to defend one next to you better. I will say if there is already a lot of control in the party then Sentinel becomes less valuable in this party. Inspiring Leader would give your party a buffer of temporary HP, very nice for those arcane squishies. Make sure not to take too many feats as your ASIs are very important on a Paladin. Charisma is generally more useful than Strength for a defender type Paladin so you want to get that to 20, probably by level 12.

I totally forgot about inspiring leader: spell-slot-free once per short rest temp hp is something my comrades are going to love. But sentinel, i'm not enough convinced: i used to be a polearm fighter with sentinel and it didnt quite worked that much.

Thanks for the inputs! So i have to pick some very whortwhile and scalable feats for my paladin, i'll think about it with my party. One last question, do you think Conquest would be useful even in a caster-heavy party?

[Sception]

Playing devil's advocate for Oath of Conquest in a good aligned party, by interpreting the conquest tenets in a good, or at least neutral-on-the-side-of-good light:

Douse the Flame of Hope. It is not enough to merely defeat an enemy in battle. Your victory must be so overwhelming that your enemies' will to fight is shattered forever. A blade can end a life. Fear can end an empire.

Not only is it not enough to defeat an enemy in battle, it's often not even necessary, and can even be counterproductive. The Conqueror knows that fear and intimidation can often prevent a battle or entire war before it ever starts, saving countless lives. While there is such a thing as primordial Evil - true, elemental Evil in the form of devils and fiends - which can only be fought unto annihilation where it is found, the overwhelming bulk of evil done in the world is motivated by petty self interest, villains who see more profit in defying order and harming the innocent than in obeying the law and respecting their fellows. Unless you change their internal calculus, those same motivations will always inspire them to return, or inspire others to take after them. Domination through fear can change that calculus by making the risks of evil acts eclipse any hope villains might have of gaining from them.

Rule with an Iron Fist. Once you have conquered, tolerate no dissent. Your word is law.
Those who obey it shall be favored. Those who defy it shall be punished as an example to all who might follow.

The important part here is "once you have conquered." The good(ish) Conqueror, much like an Oath of Redemption paladin, believes in second chances - just not third, fourth, and fifth chances. Defeat your enemies, crush them, dominate them, and in doing so demonstrate both to them and to everyone else who would traffic with the forces of Evil that there is no hope of profiting from their villainy. But at the same time, extend the opportunity to demonstrate that they have learned their lesson. Crimes should, and must, be punished, but while those punishments should be strict, and public, they should also be proportionate, and universally enforced.

And you, as one who would enforce order, must hold yourself to the highest possible standard. If your word is to be law, then it must not be used without consideration, you yourself must never break it, and you must never say anything false or issue any command that is, in and of itself, against the law or code you act to promote. None can be above your law, not even yourself.

Strength Above All. You shall rule until a stronger one arises. Then you must grow mightier and meet the challenge, or fall to your own ruin.

It's all fine and good to stake out the moral high ground, but it's all for naught if you don't have the Strength and Will to impose it upon those without any such qualms or compunctions. If a leader lacks the strength and resolve to enforce the laws of a society, then those laws might as well not even exist. Likewise, motivation through fear works, but only if those so motivated fear you more than your rivals. If the forces of Chaos and Evil should ever overpower you and tear down the Order you impose, then it is your duty to redouble your efforts and find whatever strength you need to fight back.

....

Here's a bit I wrote a while back comparing the Oath of Conquest and Oath of Redemption, which also could be read as a case for good (ish) Conquerors:

While on opposite ends of morality & disposition, the Conqueror and Redeemer have more in common then you might think at first glance. Where a typical paladin sees humans, elves, dwarves, & other "civilized" races as people to defend and orcs, goblins, and the like as monsters to defend them from, neither the Conqueror nor the Redeemer sees any such distinction. Human, Goblin, it doesn't matter, all intelligent, free-willed creatures are *people*, and deserve to be treated the same way. Granted, the treatment offered by the Conqueror and Redeemer are generally on opposite ends of the spectrum, but even then the two don't necessarily have to conflict. While Oath of Conquest paladins do tend towards evil, good Conquerors are certainly possible, and a good Conqueror can complement a Redeemer in a bad-cop/good-cop routine, with the Redeemer offering forgiveness to villains who repent while the Conqueror promises punishment to those who don't, or whose conversions prove less than sincere.

When the evil warlord gathers the goblin tribes into an army to threaten civilization, paladins of all oaths fight together to stop them. But once the warlord is vanquished and the army scattered, it is the Conqueror and the Redeemer who understand that the job is only half done. Without changes to the underlying conditions that led to the warlord's rise, in a few years another will take their place and the whole war will need to be fought all over again. The only long term solution is to gather the goblins in from the wilderness, to integrate them into society, and both the Conqueror and the Redeemer work to do so, complementing each other as they do, with the Redeemer offering the carrot and the Conqueror wielding the stick.

And if the work is to succeed, they need each other. The redeemer's message of compassion and forgiveness can't be heard if those who benefit from the current order drown them out with the sounds of violence. And there will always be those who refuse to hear the message outright, echoes of generations of animosity on both sides that will not hear reason, and the compassion inherent to the Redeemer's role won't allow them to impose their peace by force. In contrast, the Conqueror speaks in a language the barbarians already understand, the language of strength and violence, forestalling the next warlord's rise by becoming that warlord themselves, and then forcing integration with society whether the goblins or regular people like it or not - bulldozing over generations of fear of each other by ensuring that both sides fear the Conqueror even more. But that fear can only last as long as the Conqueror's personal strength holds out. If it is to outlast the conqueror, they will need the Redeemer's soothing voice to be heard once they've browbeaten those who would otherwise drown it out into silence.

The (good-aligned) Conqueror and the Redeemer are two sides of the same coin, though neither might appreciate the association, and I think the inclusion of both in the same book, thus inviting the comparison was an excellent move, if possibly not a deliberate one.

An example of a Good(ish) Conquerors:

Tesha Guidestar - Lawful Neutral Fallen Aasimar Paladin (Oath of Conquest). Marked as special from birth by her shining golden skin and hair, and a silver birthmark in the shape of (insert the symbol of local deity associated with kindness and compassion), Tesha was handed over to a reclusive monastery to be raised in an environment free from the taint and corruption of society and trained as a paladin. As she came of age, she was visited in dreams by the celestial that had marked her out at birth, an angelic servant of the (aforementioned deity), who had paused in its endless war with the powers of darkness to consider the lives of the souls over which they fought, and had been deeply moved by the suffering and hardship they endured in their mortal lives. She had imbued Tesha with a fraction of her own divine spirit that she might serve as a guiding light to her fellow mortals, a beacon of kindness and compassion.

And so Tesha set out on her quest, but the moment she stepped from the shelter of her secluded monastery, she was shocked by what she found. Conditions in the mortal world were so much worse than her divine patron had even imagined. Over and over she saw the mortals treat each other with cruelty. Their societies were corrupt, their poor clawing and desperate. Her example of compassion was everywhere rebuffed, or worse taken advantage of. Eventually Tesha decided that if things were to change, and things had to change, she would have to make them change. Her methods, though not excessively cruel, grew ruthless. Passionate appeals to decency were replaced with threats of violence and pain, threats she was was forced to make good on more than once before they started to be believed. Eventually, her patron decided enough was enough, tainting their bond through her disapproval and marking Tesha for all the world to see as a Fallen Aasimar, but by that point she had already started to see results.

Tesha was hurt by this rejection, but kept to the course she had chosen. How could she go back on it, when it was proving so much more effective at actually convincing her fellow mortals to stop hurting each other? In time, she was sure her patron would come to see all the good she was achieving and forgive the methods she chose to get there, and in any event the corrupted bond was itself useful - her once golden complexion deepened to a fiery orange, her birthmark darkened to a bruised purple-black, from which dark veins spread over her skin, and her angelic aspect became something fierce and demonic. But the overall effect she found only enhanced her ability to frighten villains into line, so she welcomed it.

But the monks who had raised her did not. While her efforts were baring fruit, they felt she had tarnished their reputation. With a heavy heart, she agreed head out for more distant lands, to seek out new enemies to fight, new allies to fight with, new communities to save, and most importantly new ways to enhance her own power, that one day she might be able combat the self-inflicted suffering of the mortal world on a far grander stage.

[Blughuh99]

flawless assumption, that's how i originally planned my paladin to be before any oath valutation. Now what puzzles me is that, because 3 out of 5 ASI must be taken for scores (maybe 4), i have room for very few feats, and i love feats.

I like feats but find them less necessary on casting classes, half-casters included. Imo, feats are used to differentiate two similar characters from each other, but subclasses and spell selection usually do a good job in that regard.

true, also most likely our fighter is going to have a shield, in that case he could be the one shoving evildoers to the ground for my smites to land. Also my DM is definitely going for the crawford interpretation

If you have a fighter in the group that changes things. You'll get a lot more mileage out of Shield Master and Sentinel with a melee beside you, especially if the fighter is building for damage and therefore a juicier target for the DM to attempt to attack. The fighter will also love getting advantage on all of his extra attacks. Bonus points if he's going Battle Master and uses Trip Attack to return the favor. I always like the idea of building a PAM, Sentinel, GWM, etc. melee but I usually end up vetoing myself to keep things from getting to cheese levels of optimization. Besides, the more work everyone puts into optimizing their characters, the harder it can be for the DM to provide a fun challenge.

I totally forgot about inspiring leader: spell-slot-free once per short rest temp hp is something my comrades are going to love. But sentinel, i'm not enough convinced: i used to be a polearm fighter with sentinel and it didnt quite worked that much.

Keep in mind temporary hit points override each other (your choice) so if you do take inspiring leader I would double check that someone else isn't also taking something to generate temporary hit points. That said, it is universally good for any class that pumps Charisma and that situation doesn't change with a fighter.

Thanks for the inputs! So i have to pick some very whortwhile and scalable feats for my paladin, i'll think about it with my party. One last question, do you think Conquest would be useful even in a caster-heavy party?

Depends on the spells the casters are using. It's obviously a little less useful if you have someone else causing the frightened condition as Conquest's aura only works if they are afraid of you, not your allies. That said, AoE fear and movement lockdown are very powerful tools to control the battlefield with. Shield Master and prone in general happens to work very well with Conquest's aura as enemies that are prone have 0 movement and therefore cannot get back up. Even when things are immune to fear you still have the rest of your Oath and unique spells to pull from not to mention general wit and teamwork.

If I had to give advice on how to choose between Ancients or Conquest, I'd say build what you'll have the most fun roleplaying. Either one is perfectly viable. If your DM has any experience he will balance around the party and not punish them for playing a less than 100% efficient character. This is a roleplaying game after all. Optimizing stats doesn't mean as much if you don't also enjoy the character. To be fair, some of that depends on the group of people you're playing with and it's best to clarify what kind of game everyone is looking for beforehand.

[Blughuh99]

Playing devil's advocate for Oath of Conquest in a good aligned party, by interpreting the conquest tenets in a good, or at least neutral-on-the-side-of-good light:

Interesting write-up Malisteen, thanks for the insight! I think your specific character is an excellent example of Lawful Neutral Paladin. I'm not entirely sold on the idea of a "good" Conquest Paladin but I understand your point. I think, at least, the tenants of Conquest can invite evil methods making it much harder to justify/roleplay. Given how complex morality can be, I guess it's a good thing DM's aren't watching Paladins based on alignment instead of Oath tenants.

[Iuridius]

I agree that Conquest cant be reliably played in any Good alignment, not without some serious RP effort, but makes perfectly sense for a ruthless Neutral even more than a cruel Evil. I feel it like an extended Vengeance paladin who wants not only to slay evil, but to eradicate it entirely. Anyway its great RP potential for anyone who does not want to play the usual armored boy scout of old.

[Citan]

I am going to be playing in a new homebrew campaign soon with 4 other players and need some advice on how to build a defender type Paladin.

We are starting at level 3 using standard array with the option to point buy. Anything goes as long as it's published material but no Unearthed Arcana without DM approval.

The other players in the group are comprised of an Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter (approved by DM), Swashbuckler Rogue, Divine Soul Sorcerer, and the last player that hasn't decided but leaning towards a Warlock or Druid. I want to play a Paladin to buddy up with the Blood Hunter to help with the Lycan's Bloodlust through Bless and later Aura of Protection and it will make for some good roleplay. Because of that I want to get this Paladin to 6 asap before I consider any multi-classing. I have no idea how long the campaign will run so I'd like to avoid any complicated build that "comes online" too late. I'm stuck on which Oath to take.

That said, I think I need to exclude Oath of Vengeance, Oath of Conquest, and Oathbreaker. Oath of Vengeance seems too focused on damage and I'm not sure how to roleplay an Oath of Conquest or Oathbreaker in a good-aligned party. Feel free to play devil's advocate on those, otherwise I think I've narrowed it down to Oath of the Ancients, Oath of the Crown, Oath of Devotion, or Oath of Redemption.

Any help is appreciated!

Hi!
I don't know Blood Hunter so my suggestion may be a bit off.

For your group, I'd say all are good choices.

Devotion:
Will make you equally good at ranged and melee attacks, so whatever position your people take (thinking of Rogue, which can go melee or ranged -even if Swash means high probability of melee- and Druid, who plays differently depending on archetype) and whatever enemy you face, you'll be useful. Especially good if your party is primarily other races than elves (which have advantage against being charmed). Works very well with both STR & DEX builds.
Sentinel will be a feat of choice anyways, as you will have reliable attacks so party can count on you completely stopping an enemy. Very possibly combined with Polearm Master, so that a) it offsets a bit the cost of Sacred Weapon on first turn if you put yourself as an attractive target enough) b) you stop the enemy 10 feet away, which means (at least until you start facing large/huge creatures regularly) most of the time you can move without OA threat.
Inspiring Leader may be another good feat, fitting thematically, if you'd like to help keeping party safe but don't want to specialize too much.

Ancients
Will make you extra resistant against magic attacks, so you will be complementary with Rogue (who can avoid all damage but only on DEX saves). Also has Misty Step which means you are less susceptible to grapples/restraining effects from terrain, and you can use it also as an emergency way to go help/protect an ally.
And Ensnaring Strike which is one of the best "weapon rider effect" spell you can hope for.
Plant Growth can possibly be a nice spell to use too, provided you ask your pals beforehand so you don't actually bother them.
DEX build may be a bit better here because you'd primarily rely on spell effects, and higher DEX means higher Initiative means higher chance to try to impose a condition before an enemy acts. Or a chance to cast Bless on everyone before rushing.

Crown
Maybe, possibly the best for you.
- Oath spells are some of the best for tanking: Stopping/Proning/Disarming target (Command), keeping one creature close to you (Compelled Duel), helping an ally sustain damage (Warding Bond), diminishing people's movement (Spirit Guardians) are all great. And provided you get 17th level, upcast Banishment is a thing too.
- Mass "Keep close to me" every short rest is a great way to protect everyone through restrained movement, included Swash (you could help him isolate one guy by keeping most of his allies within your 30 feet). Note that it's obviously useless when enemies have ranged attacks/spellls, so don't see it as an end-all thing. :)
- You also get a "self-centered Mass Healing Words" which can always help.
- "Take damage for friend" as 7th level is the most "tanky" feature you can get of all Paladin's Oaths you consider.
Of course, if you really eat into that, any combination of Polearm Master (try to kill with OA before it attacks you), Tough/Heavy Armor Master (if you do your job you'll get hit often and lose HP fast) and Inspiring Leader (THP every short rest should not be underestimated for you). And maybe, *maaaayyyybe*, a dip into Shadow Sorcerer may be in order but only if you feel you're doing your job too well for your own good. XD

So, all are really good, I'd pick...
- Devotion if you really like the Sacred Weapon feature and/or plan on combining it with Sentinel, Sharpshooter, GWM or PAM feat.
- Ancients if you want a variety of tools for various situations, and being the most resilient of all yourself.
- Crown if you want the "tanking" aspect to be your primary objective, and/or you get a Land Druid/Nature Cleric in your party (Plant Growth + Spirit Guardians = perma-lock of enemies lured in with Thorns Whip / Command).

Or just roll 1d4.
1=reroll, 2= Ancients, 3= Crown, 4=Devotion. ^^

[Blughuh99]

Hi!
I don't know Blood Hunter so my suggestion may be a bit off.

For your group, I'd say all are good choices.

Devotion:
Will make you equally good at ranged and melee attacks, so whatever position your people take (thinking of Rogue, which can go melee or ranged -even if Swash means high probability of melee- and Druid, who plays differently depending on archetype) and whatever enemy you face, you'll be useful. Especially good if your party is primarily other races than elves (which have advantage against being charmed). Works very well with both STR & DEX builds.
Sentinel will be a feat of choice anyways, as you will have reliable attacks so party can count on you completely stopping an enemy. Very possibly combined with Polearm Master, so that a) it offsets a bit the cost of Sacred Weapon on first turn if you put yourself as an attractive target enough) b) you stop the enemy 10 feet away, which means (at least until you start facing large/huge creatures regularly) most of the time you can move without OA threat.
Inspiring Leader may be another good feat, fitting thematically, if you'd like to help keeping party safe but don't want to specialize too much.

As of this post, the races & classes in the party are Protector Aasimar (Order of the Lycan Blood Hunter), Feral Tiefling (Pact of the Tome Warlock), and Dungeon Master's Guide Eladrin (Swashbuckler Rogue). The undecided player went for Warlock and the Divine Soul Sorcerer dropped. I don't plan on playing an Elf so Devotion's aura is something to consider though I don't find Charms to be very frequent. I'm hesitant to try a Sentinel/Polearm Master combo given how hungry defender/support Paladins are for ASI's. I do like Inspiring Leader, especially considering we don't have a lot of healing but I wonder if an ASI is too high a price to pay when you can use Aid starting at 5th level for party temp hp. I think my issue with this Oath is how vanilla/poster-child it feels if that makes sense.

Ancients
Will make you extra resistant against magic attacks, so you will be complementary with Rogue (who can avoid all damage but only on DEX saves). Also has Misty Step which means you are less susceptible to grapples/restraining effects from terrain, and you can use it also as an emergency way to go help/protect an ally.
And Ensnaring Strike which is one of the best "weapon rider effect" spell you can hope for.
Plant Growth can possibly be a nice spell to use too, provided you ask your pals beforehand so you don't actually bother them.
DEX build may be a bit better here because you'd primarily rely on spell effects, and higher DEX means higher Initiative means higher chance to try to impose a condition before an enemy acts. Or a chance to cast Bless on everyone before rushing.

The spell damage resistance is definitely strong, especially covering the rogue and blood hunter. I don't want to build a Dex Paladin for thematic reasons but I do get your point. Both the rogue and blood hunter are building for Dex and I like to be a special snowflake lol. That said, I would probably only use a buff spell like Bless if I could cast it just before starting combat so I wouldn't need to worry as much about initiative in that regard. Any particular feats you feel work well on an Ancients Paladin? If so, what levels would you consider taking each at? Do you feel they outweigh a CHA ASI on such a caster heavy Paladin?

Crown
Maybe, possibly the best for you.
- Oath spells are some of the best for tanking: Stopping/Proning/Disarming target (Command), keeping one creature close to you (Compelled Duel), helping an ally sustain damage (Warding Bond), diminishing people's movement (Spirit Guardians) are all great. And provided you get 17th level, upcast Banishment is a thing too.
- Mass "Keep close to me" every short rest is a great way to protect everyone through restrained movement, included Swash (you could help him isolate one guy by keeping most of his allies within your 30 feet). Note that it's obviously useless when enemies have ranged attacks/spellls, so don't see it as an end-all thing. :)
- You also get a "self-centered Mass Healing Words" which can always help.
- "Take damage for friend" as 7th level is the most "tanky" feature you can get of all Paladin's Oaths you consider.
Of course, if you really eat into that, any combination of Polearm Master (try to kill with OA before it attacks you), Tough/Heavy Armor Master (if you do your job you'll get hit often and lose HP fast) and Inspiring Leader (THP every short rest should not be underestimated for you). And maybe, *maaaayyyybe*, a dip into Shadow Sorcerer may be in order but only if you feel you're doing your job too well for your own good. XD

After reading your breakdown it seems like Crown is good at dealing with damage taken with a sprinkling of control. Command and Compelled Duel are already on the Paladin spell list so those aren't quite as good here but I do like Warding Bond and Spirit Guardians. That said, I like to be more proactive with tanking and I feel like this Oath is focused on reacting.

So, all are really good, I'd pick...
- Devotion if you really like the Sacred Weapon feature and/or plan on combining it with Sentinel, Sharpshooter, GWM or PAM feat.
- Ancients if you want a variety of tools for various situations, and being the most resilient of all yourself.
- Crown if you want the "tanking" aspect to be your primary objective, and/or you get a Land Druid/Nature Cleric in your party (Plant Growth + Spirit Guardians = perma-lock of enemies lured in with Thorns Whip / Command).

Or just roll 1d4.
1=reroll, 2= Ancients, 3= Crown, 4=Devotion. ^^

Great thoughts in general Citan. I think out of these 3 I like Ancients the best. I was going to ask why you didn't mention Redemption but looking at it now it seems like Redemption is focused primarily on support/control rather than tanking so I won't consider it in the running.

Everyone in the party is going Neutral alignment now so I feel like I can pull off the roleplay for a Conquest Paladin now. Can you offer any advice for Conquest? If it matters, I'll be playing a Dragonborn if I go Conquest.

[Nidgit]

Redemption does heal-tanking pretty well. It's an odd subclass that, along with Conquest, really benefits from prioritizing CHA and acting as even more of a caster than typical half-casters. Given that your party doesn't have much magic and entirely lacks healing, it's definitely something you should consider.

[Blughuh99]

Redemption does heal-tanking pretty well. It's an odd subclass that, along with Conquest, really benefits from prioritizing CHA and acting as even more of a caster than typical half-casters. Given that your party doesn't have much magic and entirely lacks healing, it's definitely something you should consider.

Yeah Redemption is a bit of an oddball and I think the roleplay can be kind of annoying to groups that just want to kick ass and chew bubblegum. Our party does lack healing but I don't think Redemption helps anymore there than a normal Paladin. They don't get any healing spells on their Oath spells list and only get a regeneration effect on themselves starting at 15? Maybe I missed something?

[strangebloke]

I mostly agree with Citan, however, I beg you to consider the Conquest Paladin.

• channel divinity + level 7 aura = powerful crowd control with only one save.
• Armor of Agathys is one of the best defensive spells on a melee character period. Comboes absurdly well with Heavy Armor Master.
• Due to the power of the Paladin's debuffs, it makes sense to max CHA before STR, which makes them better at supporting the team than other, more DPR-focused paladins like the Devo pally.

As to the RP concerns, well...

The oath tenants are all about making conquest, ruling absolutely, and being strong. There's lot of conquerors who are arguably good-aligned, and in a brutal setting like DND, there are lots of good reasons to want to conquer.

EX:

Krava, the Raven. Half-Orc. Was born in the wastes, where orcs war constantly. Sees the lives lost, sees the waste, sees the wonderful lives the city-dwellers have. Gets fed up. Sets out to conquer the orc tribes, unite them, make them a legit nation. Rules through fear because some idiots are always going to try and challenge him. Focuses on personal strength because that's what the orcs respect.

Captain Max. Human. Is a privateer for a good-aligned kingdom. This means that he spends most of his time boarding ships and taking treasure. His crew are of dubious loyalty, being mostly conscripts. So he rules his crew through fear because if a mutiny happens, everyone loses. When he takes ships, he makes a big show of how scary he is, because if the crew tries to fight, he'll have to kill them. He focuses on personal strength because he has to maintain order over a very rough group of people.

Lyra. Elf. Once her city was a place of light and magic. The enchanter Thorizan brought cursed potions into the city that give a boost to magic but are highly addictive, and used them to control the city. Lyra swears a holy oath to take back her city and free her people. She knows that she'll have to be tough and mean if she means to reform a city of drug addicts, but she's willing to pay the cost to her soul.

[Blughuh99]

I mostly agree with Citan, however, I beg you to consider the Conquest Paladin.

BlizzardMayne, CTurbo, and Malisteen all touched on Conquest. I never doubted it's strengths but roleplaying was a concern for me until I learned my party switched from good to neutral alignments. Now that I am entertaining a Conquest Paladin, any advice you can offer would be appreciated.

• channel divinity + level 7 aura = powerful crowd control with only one save.
• Armor of Agathys is one of the best defensive spells on a melee character period. Comboes absurdly well with Heavy Armor Master.
• Due to the power of the Paladin's debuffs, it makes sense to max CHA before STR, which makes them better at supporting the team than other, more DPR-focused paladins like the Devo pally.

The aura is definitely powerful and I agree that Heavy Armor Master combos well with Armor of Agathys but I think with how spell heavy Conquest is it really needs better concentration checks. Heavy Armor Master would help against physical attacks (and even then only against non-magical weapons) but doesn't help against spells. I like the feat on Ancients but I think Conquest would be better served by Resilient (Con) or Warcaster. Taking both would probably be too much considering how little room for feats a Paladin has. Completely agreed on the importance of CHA before STR here.

I'm playing around with a Conquest Dragonborn and like these feats:

• Resilient (Con) for better concentration checks
• Shield Master for it's synergy with Conquest's aura, complimenting the rogue and blood hunter, and some defensive benefits for my mediocre dexterity
• Sentinel against fear-immune enemies and to dissuade enemies from attacking my party, especially the blood hunter who will be sticking close to me
• Dragon Fear to give my breath weapon some usefulness later when its scaling fails to keep up and to provide another short rest AoE fear. I'm not too concerned about Conquest's aura dealing damage to break the fear. The aura is only a 10 ft. radius early on and even when it expands to 30 ft. it still only deals damage to those starting their turns in it. With some clever manuevering you can use the expanded aura as a speed bump to keep enemies from rushing in as they'll get stopped once they enter the aura immediately, dealing with one enemy/pack each round. I will admit this one is probably less useful than the others listed so far but it's just so damn cool .

Obviously I need to max Charisma as Strength and Constitution are less of a concern, especially with the existence of items like Belt of Giant's Strength and Amulet of Health. My problem is which feat to cut and when to take the remaining feats, especially with them being in competition with a CHA ASI.

As to the RP concerns, well...

The oath tenants are all about making conquest, ruling absolutely, and being strong. There's lot of conquerors who are arguably good-aligned, and in a brutal setting like DND, there are lots of good reasons to want to conquer.

If you have questionably evil means to justify a good end does that not make it neutral? I don't mean to offend or derail the thread with a debate on morality but I just don't see it.

EX:
Krava, the Raven. Half-Orc. Was born in the wastes, where orcs war constantly. Sees the lives lost, sees the waste, sees the wonderful lives the city-dwellers have. Gets fed up. Sets out to conquer the orc tribes, unite them, make them a legit nation. Rules through fear because some idiots are always going to try and challenge him. Focuses on personal strength because that's what the orcs respect.

A half-orc dominates entire tribes of evil creatures and adopts their ways to keep order. Sounds closer to Evil than Neutral to me though I will say this is probably the best example of a Conquest Paladin in your list.

Captain Max. Human. Is a privateer for a good-aligned kingdom. This means that he spends most of his time boarding ships and taking treasure. His crew are of dubious loyalty, being mostly conscripts. So he rules his crew through fear because if a mutiny happens, everyone loses. When he takes ships, he makes a big show of how scary he is, because if the crew tries to fight, he'll have to kill them. He focuses on personal strength because he has to maintain order over a very rough group of people.

First, I take some issue with a good-aligned kingdom legalizing piracy. Second, Captain Max doesn't strike me as a Paladin, maybe a Swashbuckler would be a better fit for this character? I know not all Paladins need to be lawful but a pirate Paladin just rubs me the wrong way.

Lyra. Elf. Once her city was a place of light and magic. The enchanter Thorizan brought cursed potions into the city that give a boost to magic but are highly addictive, and used them to control the city. Lyra swears a holy oath to take back her city and free her people. She knows that she'll have to be tough and mean if she means to reform a city of drug addicts, but she's willing to pay the cost to her soul.

This character sounds more like a Redemption Paladin than Conquest. It's actually a pretty good backstory for one. I don't see how beating drug addicts' faces in is going to make them forget about major withdrawl symptoms.

Regardless, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Even if I don't agree with them it does get me thinking.

[Citan]

Great thoughts in general Citan. I think out of these 3 I like Ancients the best. I was going to ask why you didn't mention Redemption but looking at it now it seems like Redemption is focused primarily on support/control rather than tanking so I won't consider it in the running.

Everyone in the party is going Neutral alignment now so I feel like I can pull off the roleplay for a Conquest Paladin now. Can you offer any advice for Conquest? If it matters, I'll be playing a Dragonborn if I go Conquest.

Thanks ;)

Note that I didn't speak of Conquest because you put it off in your opening post, nor of Redemption because you didn't quote it.

Those are good too. But first answering your questions.

1. Devotion: Paladins are ASI-hungry indeed, but as long as you are ok with having a slightly lesser to-hit in general, having Sacred Weapon for the big fights mean you can afford to delay one ASI (not two though) and focus primarily on CHA. And since your party doesn't have much healing, and that you want your slots for buffs/debuffs/smite instead of healing, having short-rest THP is really a good deal.
On that note, I wouldn't consider Aid as a reliable source of THP. Simply because when you get it (lvl 5), it's only 5 HP, not enough to make a real difference: it does pays off in the long run, but I'd personally rather keep such precious slots for an Oath spell, a Magic Weapon, Find Steed or upcasted Wrathful Smite.

2. Ancients: as I said (or maybe not? ^^), STR is fine too. If you are ok with not being the "fight starting buffer", it's perfectly legitimate to be the one guy sporting heavy armor and big weapon. ;)
It just means you will dedicate yourself to melee anytime, but it's not a big deal, you wanted to tank from the start. It just means you'll be kinda ineffective in some situations (although in worst case, a Javelin throw with a successful Ensnaring Strike attached does mean on subsequent turns you can hit your target in melee ;)).
That said, anyone in your party could pick it instead.
Depending on your party needs, and yours, you could pick either the aforementioned Inspiring Leader, or Sentinel (always useful), or Polearm Master (to take advantage of ability to wield heavy, reach weapons).
Sentinel would be my first pick simply because stopping one creature is imo important for someone who wants to tank. But you have to think of yourself too, if you take too many hits and get down it's inefficient in the end. PAM in that way *may* help by giving you a chance to kill an enemy before he comes into attack reach. It's also giving you one more attack, decent improvement on sustained damage.

3. Crown
Yeah, this Oath really comes as a reliable tank after level 7. Before that, you'll mainly rely on Channel Divinity to keep enemies near you, but it won't be enough by itself: to aggro, you have to make your friends also take your actions into account when deciding what to do, and you need enemies to not have long ranged attacks.

This is actually a drawback that could be said for Conquest also. :)



4. Conquest
Spells: let's be honest: Spiritual Weapon is not THAT useful for you. Simply because an upcast Command / Wrathful Smite or even Hold Person or simple smite will be much better use of that slot.
Armor of Agathys will be mildly useful when significant upcast, meaning you won't get much of it before level 9. Also it kinda anti-synergizes with all the fear abilities.

Channel Divinity: Extra precision: can always save your day when you really wanted to blow a big one.
Channel Divinity: mass "fear": no doubt, this is a very good channel divinity to get one, maybe two turns of breathing. Compared to Fear as spell, the big plus is being ally-friendly. *Don't* count on that effect to last more.
I mean, technically it sure can, but a lucky roll can always happen even with bad save bonus, so keeping your expectations low will help use it well without getting bad surprises.

Aura: good one, but tricky one. Very tricky may I dare say.
If a creature is frightened, it will tend to run away to break line of sight.
If you place yourself in such a way as setting a creature's speed to 0, it also means you won't move elsewhere.

And creature's speed is 0 only when in your aura. But that is really important only during its turn (unless it readies an action to move away as soon as possible). Meaning when its turn comes you have to be within 10 feet away max. Meaning you have to plan your movement to finish your turn as appropriate. Which may, or not, goes against your priorities.
Other creatures may also act against that by grappling/pushing their friends away or blocking line of sight (once they understand about aura, which should *not* be a given imo).

Even when you got several creatures frightened, "triangulating" to maximize the number of creatures affected may be complex more often than not. Especially with two other frontliners that may entice enemy to spread out.
It also means those creatures will (obviously) attack you usually, because you'll have made yourself the only creature available. So while it's no problem with CD, if you use Wrathful Smite / Fear your concentration will be in danger. Meaning it could end earlier than expected.

My point is: probably better that you don't view it as "a big great mass control aura" but rather as "automatically added rider on one, max two creatures close to each other that I frightened previously".
Which, to be honest, is already very good. ^^

In you are fine fluff-wise with it AND you expect your friends to be smart and play as a team AND you consider yourself a good resource manager (the latter being a requirement whatever Oath though), Conquest is probably the most valued for your party.
You'll use the same low-level spell (Wrathful Smite) when your Channel Divinity is not available or potentially overkill to reduce threat from the seemingly most dangerous enemy, but otherwise use little abilities and spells. You'll be very focused in how you play, but very good at it. :)

With proper coordination, you may greatly facilitate the work of your beloved Swashbuckler pal too. On that note, Shield Master may be a good investment (unless Rogue takes it himself), provided of course stars are aligned (successful frighten effect and creature's turn being between yours and Rogue).
Otherwise, Warcaster/Resilient: Constitution (depending on whether you go shield or two-hander) is probably the primary contender for feat: you will want your Wrathful Smite to stick as long as possible!

5. Redemption (in spoiler since you aren't very interested in it, since not the kind of playstyle you want).

Spoiler

Show

Possibly the most underrated Oath, but quite tricky to use well.
Probably the one, even more than Devotion and as much as Conquest, that can cope with putting CHA as the priority stat.
Spells: Sanctuary (you *will* save lives here), Sleep (nice infiltration trick), *frigging Countttttttterspell* (although your Warlock pal can *and should* learn it), *frigging Hypnotic Pattern (same, in which case you casting it would actually be a waste of resources, probably).
Channel Divinity: +CHA: nice social tool.
CD: Rebuke the Violent: laughingly strong, but wildly hazardous, wildly as in "Wild Magic": you may have days in which you'll spend it "just not to waste it", for measly damage, while some other time you may put a big dent on the BBEG of the moment, or instakill a "regular" enemy that, being lucky enough to get a critical with great rolls, became unlucky enough to provoke its own death.
Aura: take damage for a friend. Take. FULL. damage.
This is a very powerful ability for sure. I'm a bit afraid it would be overkill, in all meanings, in your situation. After all, you will already take hits from your playstyle (frontliner), and your party has no real big healing pool (besides your own Lay on Hands). Saving the day on your friend's turn may mean dooming your own next one...
I'd take this only if your confident in your party being smart and careful, even more than for Conquest. ^^ OR if your Warlock, for some reason, decides not to learn Counterspell (party without Counterspell is a bad idea in my books, but it's personal).

[Nidgit]

I really feel like if you can get ranged attacks on Redemption it's even better suited to hanging back just a little to give additional support to your back line. You can choose whether to use your Aura to help your frontliners dissipate some damage or save your back line's butts when they're targeted for being glass cannons.