MitD XI: A good man

[Ruck]

The only conclusions that I can draw are either that

a) Despite the decade of searching and speculation, there must exist some as-yet undiscovered or unnamed creature that matches the accepted interpretation of Rich's words according to the Rules; or
b) in some way, one or more of the Rules must be wrong in its interpretation, which has erroneously eliminated the true answer.

I can think of at least one other conclusion:

c) We have not yet been provided with all the clues, and it is therefore impossible to clearly and definitively establish the correct answer at this point. In fact, it is quite possible that we will not receive enough information to definitively identify MitD before its identity is revealed.

There's also:

d) We actually have gotten the answer right despite not having all the clues, but since there's not going to be a balloon-and-confetti drop when someone figures it out in this thread, we still won't really know for sure until Rich actually reveals it in the strip, some 3-5 years from now (in my estimation).

[Peelee]

There's also:

d) We actually have gotten the answer right despite not having all the clues, but since there's not going to be a balloon-and-confetti drop when someone figures it out in this thread, we still won't really know for sure until Rich actually reveals it in the strip, some 3-5 years from now (in my estimation).

At which point I'll find whoever called it and give them an ASCII balloon-and-confetti drop.

[Riarra]

This seems like a good time to pop in and establish my guess as Slaad>Protean.

[Sir_Norbert]

I can think of at least one other conclusion:

c) We have not yet been provided with all the clues, and it is therefore impossible to clearly and definitively establish the correct answer at this point. In fact, it is quite possible that we will not receive enough information to definitively identify MitD before its identity is revealed.

In the opinion of the Giant, "It is possible to guess" (from one of the quotes collected in the OP).

[Keltest]

In the opinion of the Giant, "It is possible to guess" (from one of the quotes collected in the OP).

Which is not the same thing as being possible to deduce.

I am immensely skeptical that Rich is deliberately leaving enough clues to guarantee a diligent reader the correct answer before the reveal.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Which is not the same thing as being possible to deduce.

I am immensely skeptical that Rich is deliberately leaving enough clues to guarantee a diligent reader the correct answer before the reveal.

"I trust that someone will figure it out eventually."

[Keltest]

"I trust that someone will figure it out eventually."

Which, again, is not the same thing as saying that we will be able to conclusively eliminate all but one possible contender from the running. It could well be, say, a Slaad, in which case several somebodies have figured it out, but we wont know until the reveal.

Indeed, being able to definitively prove what it is before the actual reveal would seem to lessen the dramatic impact of the reveal, and I doubt Rich would want to do that.

[Ruck]

I'll just go ahead and register my disagreement for any parsing that when Rich said "It is possible to guess" and "I trust someone will figure it out eventually," he meant it is actually not possible to guess or figure out before the reveal.

[Shashakiro]

“Figure it out” could very easily and fairly mean something like “properly interpret the oblique clue I put in a strip that nobody even considered relevant to MitD for a long time”.

It certainly doesn’t suggest that some kind of absolute logical D&D rules-deduction must be possible.

[Kish]

I'll just go ahead and register my disagreement for any parsing that when Rich said "It is possible to guess" and "I trust someone will figure it out eventually," he meant it is actually not possible to guess or figure out before the reveal.

Seconded. .

[ti'esar]

Honestly, I've always thought Ruck's conclusion "D" was pretty obviously the case - the MitD may be possible to guess, and may have already been guessed, but it's not like we're going to know that with 100 percent certainty at the time.

[5a Violista]

I'll just go ahead and register my disagreement for any parsing that when Rich said "It is possible to guess" and "I trust someone will figure it out eventually," he meant it is actually not possible to guess or figure out before the reveal.

I agree that he wouldn't intentionally make it "possible to guess" while it's not actually possible to figure out, however:

There's always the possibility that there exists two monsters that perfectly fit every clue he deems necessary to include, but he just doesn't know about one of them (or even doesn't remember the specifics about one of them) and so he sees no need to differentiate between them.

Or, alternatively, Rich considers one clue important that disqualifies one of those two monsters, but most people overlook it as "artistic license" or "not important".

So, um...I agree with the principle, but not with the specifics.

[Crusher]

This seems like a good time to pop in and establish my guess as Slaad>Protean.

Okie dokie. Duly noted.

[ReaderAt2046]

There's also:

d) We actually have gotten the answer right despite not having all the clues, but since there's not going to be a balloon-and-confetti drop when someone figures it out in this thread, we still won't really know for sure until Rich actually reveals it in the strip, some 3-5 years from now (in my estimation).

That's actually what I meant when I said, "In fact, it is quite possible that we will not receive enough information to definitively identify MitD before its identity is revealed." By "definitively identify", I mean what some people keep expecting to find, that identification that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Monster X is the one and only viable candidate for the MitD.

[Ruck]

That's actually what I meant when I said, "In fact, it is quite possible that we will not receive enough information to definitively identify MitD before its identity is revealed." By "definitively identify", I mean what some people keep expecting to find, that identification that proves beyond any reasonable doubt that Monster X is the one and only viable candidate for the MitD.

Yeah, I mean, I think the most likely scenario is that we've figured it out already; it's just not totally clear what it is because nothing is a perfect fit. And with all the brainpower that has gone into this search (presumably-- I haven't been around that long), I also don't think it's likely we're going to find something that fits better than our main guesses now.

I also don't think Rich is playing subtle word games with us, mostly because he's frequently lamented how when he tries to clarify things people take the exact words of his comments and create or extrapolate a different meaning from them.

[Joerg]

Note that Rich wrote about "possible to guess" and "figure it out" before we got to the escape scene. Which probably eliminated many candidates. So I would also interpret it as "it's possible to find a creature that fits the clues and is the correct guess, but there may also be other creatures which fit the clues" and not as "there is only one creature that fits the clues and you can thus deduce the correct creature from the clues without ambiguity".

[woweedd]

Note that Rich wrote about "possible to guess" and "figure it out" before we got to the escape scene. Which probably eliminated many candidates. So I would also interpret it as "it's possible to find a creature that fits the clues and is the correct guess, but there may also be other creatures which fit the clues" and not as "there is only one creature that fits the clues and you can thus deduce the correct creature from the clues without ambiguity".

Oh, trust me, just look at the first iteration of this thread if you want to see how many guesses died off from that. Although, I should warn you: Those were the times before we had Grey Wolf curating and, whatever your feelings on how he runs things, a cursory scan of that thread will show you what things would be like without him. Short version: Not good. There's a reason he complied the information in the first post, because that first thread is pretty much nothing but people bringing in, metaphorically, long-dead horses to be beaten.

[Laze]

People seems to know about slaad pretty well. Guys like Elan and Belkar know about them at least something, so people in the circus wouldn't be freaking out that much, right?

[Emanick]

People seems to know about slaad pretty well. Guys like Elan and Belkar know about them at least something, so people in the circus wouldn't be freaking out that much, right?

They're adventurers, though. It's their job to know about monsters. It's not clear to me how well-known slaadi are among the general populace. (As an aside, I've never thought it a convincing argument that laypeople must somehow be able to identify some Outsiders because of temple carvings; we have no evidence that OOTSverse temples use the same Gothic architectural motifs that medieval churches did.)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

They're adventurers, though. It's their job to know about monsters. It's not clear to me how well-known slaadi are among the general populace.

OK, this is Belkar & Elan we are talking about. They likely have sub-9 int. And even if it was Roy and V, "being an adventurer" doesn't automatically grant knowledge of every creature under the sun.

@Laze: the idea is that a black slaad would be particularly weird looking even for a slaad - depending on what description and drawing you pick, they sometimes seem to be vantablack black. So black, in other words, that they seem like a hole in space with eyes.

(As an aside, I've never thought it a convincing argument that laypeople must somehow be able to identify some Outsiders because of temple carvings; we have no evidence that OOTSverse temples use the same Gothic architectural motifs that medieval churches did.)

The tradition of decorating important religious locations with mythology goes back at least to Egyptian times, and likely further beyond it. The god of the temple beating back demons is a fairly standard way of showing how awesome your god is.

Grey Wolf

[Laze]

@Laze: the idea is that a black slaad would be particularly weird looking even for a slaad - depending on what description and drawing you pick, they sometimes seem to be vantablack black. So black, in other words, that they seem like a hole in space with eyes.

Grey Wolf

Okay, fair enough. Make sense. In that case, can slaad move across the alignment chart? They are sort of angels or demons of chaos, so they can't change their alignment, right? Monster in the darkness seems to be heading into Chaotic Good side lately, in my opinion. From what I can tell, Giant is not strictly obeying those rules, things like IFCC shouldn't be possible in D&D, but still.
ps I hope this is not the answer that was answered a billion times already, I wasn't reading all of those threads.

[hamishspence]

From what I can tell, Giant is not strictly obeying those rules, things like IFCC shouldn't be possible in D&D, but still.

IFCC don't stray far from D&D conceptually.

In Forgotten Realms, Malkizid, an archdevil (albeit one who has fled the Nine Hells), has yugoloth followers, and allies with the demon-descended fey'ri, and with the half-demons of House Dlardrageth, who lead the fey'ri.

can slaad move across the alignment chart? They are sort of angels or demons of chaos, so they can't change their alignment, right?

As for alignment change, there's plenty of fallen angels and redeemed fiends in D&D fiction (the MM makes it clear that beings with an alignment subtype can still change alignment to not match it). So why not a "redeemed slaad"?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Okay, fair enough. Make sense. In that case, can slaad move across the alignment chart? They are sort of angels or demons of chaos, so they can't change their alignment, right? Monster in the darkness seems to be heading into Chaotic Good side lately, in my opinion. From what I can tell, Giant is not strictly obeying those rules, things like IFCC shouldn't be possible in D&D, but still.

This one is a tricky one. First, the idea that demons can't change alignments comes from the Giant - it's from a commentary in the books. He considers demons and angels and the like embodiments of their respective alignments, and therefore no more capable of leaving those alignments than you or I can stop being made of matter. That said, in that very same commentary he does mention the IFCC as a counter example, of how much free will they have to change, and says they can change just slightly enough to make that partnership work.

So, back to the slaads: the argument here would be that they embody Chaos, rather than the good-evil alignment. So they'd be able to move from good to bad and back, as long as they remain pure chaos. There are two problems with this. First, and lesser, is that embodiments can't pick and choose alignments. Slaads would have to be embodiments of Chaotic Neutral. But that aside, the most damming problem is that MitD doesn't strike me as an embodiment of Chaos either. This is an individual that stays in a box that can't hold him because he was told to stay put, and holds an umbrella he hates because he was ordered to. His lavish devotion to rules really fits badly with "his entire being is chaos alignment made solid", IMnpHO.

ps I hope this is not the answer that was answered a billion times already, I wasn't reading all of those threads.

Nah, you're good so far. It's never honest questions that bother me.

As for alignment change, there's plenty of fallen angels and redeemed fiends in D&D fiction (the MM makes it clear that beings with an alignment subtype can still change alignment to not match it). So why not a "redeemed slaad"?

Because this world runs on D&D rules, unless the Giant overrules them, and while it is merely canon commentary rather than canon proper, I do believe that the Giant thinks that embodiments can't violate their essence or fail to live up to their own ideals

Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals,

Grey Wolf

[hamishspence]

He considers demons and angels and the like embodiments of their respective alignments,

This I remember:

and therefore no more capable of leaving those alignments than you or I can stop being made of matter.

This, however, I don't. He calls the IFCC a "slightly more lawful demon, slightly more chaotic evil, slightly less neutral daemon" but I don't recall him ever saying that actual alignment change was impossible for such beings.

I do believe that the Giant thinks that embodiments can't violate their essence or fail to live up to their own ideals

Because, see, Celia isn't a deva or an angel; she's not an embodiment of Law or Good. She can mistakes and screw up, and she can fail to live up to her own ideals

I think a bit too much is being read into this. "Celia can make mistakes but a deva can't make mistakes" was not, IMO, the intended take-away.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I think a bit too much is being read into this. "Celia can make mistakes but a deva can't make mistakes" was not, IMO, the intended take-away.

I'm sorry, but I cannot read it in any other way than "an angel or deva cannot fail to live up to their own ideals". I can accept that they can make mistakes - that they thought the most Lawful, Good course of action was A, and then A turned out to be a terrible course of action, but not that given courses of action A (LG) and B (CG) and C (CE) (as far as they can determine), they are capable of choosing to do B or C.

MitD staying in the box or obeying orders and being a lapdog is not mistakes. It is rational decisions on his part.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

This I remember:



This, however, I don't. He calls the IFCC a "slightly more lawful demon, slightly more chaotic evil, slightly less neutral daemon" but I don't recall him ever saying that actual alignment change was impossible for such beings.




I think a bit too much is being read into this. "Celia can make mistakes but a deva can't make mistakes" was not, IMO, the intended take-away.

I generally agree, but at the same time I think a slaad is unlikely (no autocorrect, not a salad, though that too is unlikely). Elan recognizing the slaad as a force of chaos could be explained by his bardic lore, and there isn't any specific indication that Belkar actually knew what a slaad was when talking to his shoulder demons, but as Grey Wolf has indicated, there are just too many behavioral problems with the MITD for a slaad to sit well with me, as hilarious it would be if it turned out to be a black slaad.

[hamishspence]

MitD staying in the box or obeying orders and being a lapdog is not mistakes. It is rational decisions on his part.

It may be more "A celestial can't make mistakes about what's Good and what's not, the way a human can".

Thus, when a celestial falls, it's entirely because they've chosen to do acts they know are Evil."

I generally have a much more lenient position on explicitly magical beings like demons. Even though I still choose to treat them with human feelings and drives, I am less critical of works that don't. Simply because, as you say, there could be some utility in that, at least theoretically.

[Crusher]

The tradition of decorating important religious locations with mythology goes back at least to Egyptian times, and likely further beyond it. The god of the temple beating back demons is a fairly standard way of showing how awesome your god is.

I was mostly on-board with this approach, but it just occurs to me that last few dozen-ish strips (minus the most recent few) were all set *in* a temple. Specifically Thor, a deity who is all about smiting bad guys and being awesome. There have been many, many panels showing different parts of the temple (certainly not comprehensive, but we've seen at least... um, 3 significant rooms and a couple hallways?) and I don't recall seeing a single one that showed Thor fighting back hordes of demons or monsters in general. On the one hand, sure, maybe we just didn't see those parts. On the other hand, if the argument is "Commoners know what demons/devils look like because the temple artwork is full of them", then we see a big temple to just that kind of deity, and we don't see any such artwork, then its kind of a fly in the ointment.

[Keltest]

I was mostly on-board with this approach, but it just occurs to me that last few dozen-ish strips (minus the most recent few) were all set *in* a temple. Specifically Thor, a deity who is all about smiting bad guys and being awesome. There have been many, many panels showing different parts of the temple (certainly not comprehensive, but we've seen at least... um, 3 significant rooms and a couple hallways?) and I don't recall seeing a single one that showed Thor fighting back hordes of demons or monsters in general. On the one hand, sure, maybe we just didn't see those parts. On the other hand, if the argument is "Commoners know what demons/devils look like because the temple artwork is full of them", then we see a big temple to just that kind of deity, and we don't see any such artwork, then its kind of a fly in the ointment.

Even if there isn't literal artwork, im willing to assume that the populace has a general popular culture idea of what being from the lower planes look like.

[Synesthesy]

So, back to the slaads: the argument here would be that they embody Chaos, rather than the good-evil alignment. So they'd be able to move from good to bad and back, as long as they remain pure chaos. There are two problems with this. First, and lesser, is that embodiments can't pick and choose alignments. Slaads would have to be embodiments of Chaotic Neutral. But that aside, the most damming problem is that MitD doesn't strike me as an embodiment of Chaos either. This is an individual that stays in a box that can't hold him because he was told to stay put, and holds an umbrella he hates because he was ordered to. His lavish devotion to rules really fits badly with "his entire being is chaos alignment made solid", IMnpHO.



Grey Wolf

But being chaotic is about doing what you want, not to never follow the rules. MitD surely seems easy to influence, but this isn't about aligment chart, is about personality. Or am I wrong?