MitD XI: A good man

[Jasdoif]

Has it been considered that the MitD isn't a snarl, but is instead a four-or-more-quiddity version of an already proposed creature that somehow made its way into a three-quiddity world?

Suppose it's true. What impact would that have on what type of creature it could be?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Narratively speaking, this also gives it a more direct tie-in to the plot.

He has as much narrative tie-in to the plot as the rest of Team Evil - i.e. he is as relevant to the plot as Xykon and RedCloak. If you don't find that "direct" enough, then nothing seems likely to satisfy you.

Rich repeatedly assuring us that the ultimate reveal of the MitD's identity will be a satisfying payoff has me a little soured on it just being an obscure creature from a monster manual somewhere.

The problem here is with your expectations that a satisfying payoff has to come from you recognising the creature and not, say, the emotional aspect of MitD's character development surrounding the reveal.

Grey Wolf

[Cheesy74]

Suppose it's true. What impact would that have on what type of creature it could be?

Depending on your interpretation of how an extra color affects its abilities, it substantially broadens the field by giving an otherwise eliminated-due-to-absence-of-ability-XYZ monster access to that ability.

I don't think I have enough info to go on to say definitively that an extra color would cover incredible strength, its ability to teleport, etc, but I think we're likely to get more concrete information about what effect having more quiddities than the surrounding world has on a creature in the next handful of comics.

[woweedd]

Depending on your interpretation of how an extra color affects its abilities, it substantially broadens the field by giving an otherwise eliminated-due-to-absence-of-ability-XYZ monster access to that ability.

I don't think I have enough info to go on to say definitively that an extra color would cover incredible strength, its ability to teleport, etc, but I think we're likely to get more concrete information about what effect having more quiddities than the surrounding world has on a creature in the next handful of comics.

I do not think that. Also, if the comic does not elaborate on that, then it's essentially a template. Heck, even if it does, it's a template. AND a template Rich made up, meaning you can't even use the common defense for templates.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Depending on your interpretation of how an extra color affects its abilities, it substantially broadens the field by giving an otherwise eliminated-due-to-absence-of-ability-XYZ monster access to that ability..

No it wouldn't. There is no evidence whatsoever that other than making you better at killing gods, extra colours give you any kind of power upgrade.

And if it did, it would make the creature into a Rich creation. There is no way to figure out MitD is a centaur "with teleport, strength 40 and disfigured face because it was created with 4 colours of quiddity". Whatever that is, it's not a centaur anymore, and if someone tried to sell it to me, I'd call them liars for pretending this was an honest guessing game.

Grey Wolf

[ArkenBrony]

What if he isn’t a stick figure? He could be a creature from a previous world

[Jasdoif]

Depending on your interpretation of how an extra color affects its abilities, it substantially broadens the field by giving an otherwise eliminated-due-to-absence-of-ability-XYZ monster access to that ability.

I don't think I have enough info to go on to say definitively that an extra color would cover incredible strength, its ability to teleport, etc, but I think we're likely to get more concrete information about what effect having more quiddities than the surrounding world has on a creature in the next handful of comics.

That is the opposite of determining what the MitD is.

No, seriously. It boils down to "assume an extra quiddity grants this thing every capability and restriction that would be needed for it to fit what we've seen of MitD"; and that point any two things are equally likely, and it's therefore impossible to say any one thing is more likely to be MitD than any other thing.


It's the same with any "assume arbitrarily accessing an ability" approach: Considering it without specific evidence thereof amounts to endorsing "ignore whatever doesn't fit the theory"...which is not how theories (should) work.

[Crusher]

Has it been considered that the MitD isn't a snarl, but is instead a four-or-more-quiddity version of an already proposed creature that somehow made its way into a three-quiddity world? There's a lot of hurdles here, but the increased Realness of having an additional color forming its being could account for its incredible strength as well as (potentially) its supernatural ability to influence the less-real world around it. This debatably conflicts with Rich saying he didn't make the MitD from whole cloth, but it doesn't prevent it from being an existing creature, which ties fairly well into the "thin line between making it and not" quote.

Narratively speaking, this also gives it a more direct tie-in to the plot. Rich repeatedly assuring us that the ultimate reveal of the MitD's identity will be a satisfying payoff has me a little soured on it just being an obscure creature from a monster manual somewhere.

Interesting idea, but hard to prove or disprove.

[Aveline]

Given that multiple characters believe they recognize MitD by looking at it (O-Chul, for example, and Oona), is it reasonable to say that the MitD is not the only specimen of his kind that there ever was?

I can think of a few ways he could still be a unique creature:

• MitD has shapeshifting abilities
• MitD has a subjective appearance, Vorlon style
• O-Chul and Oona had both learned about this specific unique creature before actually meeting him

but I am not familiar enough with this thread to say whether these points are valid or invalid. The third one sounds like a stretch though.

As a more restrictive question: If MitD has a consistent appearance, could we then conclude that there is or has been at least one other MitD in the current world?

(I know he said he had a dad, but I don't think that settles my question one way or the other.)

[b_jonas]

Given that multiple characters believe they recognize MitD by looking at it (O-Chul, for example, and Oona), is it reasonable to say that the MitD is not the only specimen of his kind that there ever was?

I don't think Oona claims that he's recognized the MitD. In fact, “like in wildest dreams” sounds to me more like he's never seen any beast like that. O-Chul or Redcloak may have recognized him.

[Aveline]

I don't think Oona claims that he's recognized the MitD. In fact, “like in wildest dreams” sounds to me more like he's never seen any beast like that. O-Chul or Redcloak may have recognized him.

Ah, I misremembered that bit. Thanks for the correction.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Given that multiple characters believe they recognize MitD by looking at it (O-Chul, for example, and Oona), is it reasonable to say that the MitD is not the only specimen of his kind that there ever was?

I can think of a few ways he could still be a unique creature:

• MitD has shapeshifting abilities
• MitD has a subjective appearance, Vorlon style
• O-Chul and Oona had both learned about this specific unique creature before actually meeting him

but I am not familiar enough with this thread to say whether these points are valid or invalid. The third one sounds like a stretch though.

As a more restrictive question: If MitD has a consistent appearance, could we then conclude that there is or has been at least one other MitD in the current world?

(I know he said he had a dad, but I don't think that settles my question one way or the other.)

Please read the first post. These thoughts have been proposed before, and are addressed in post 1.

In short, the SBGH called him "one of those", which I'd say discards the possibility of uniqueness. And while shapeshifting can never be entirely discarded, if feels rather unlikely that in a game where clues are being given to figure out what the creature might be, that he'd go with the one type of creature that can simply render all such clues false.

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

Please read the first post. These thoughts have been proposed before, and are addressed in post 1.

In short, the SBGH called him "one of those", which I'd say discards the possibility of uniqueness. And while shapeshifting can never be entirely discarded, if feels rather unlikely that in a game where clues are being given to figure out what the creature might be, that he'd go with the one type of creature that can simply render all such clues false.

Grey Wolf

Sorry about that. I forgot about that section of the opening posts.

[Ruck]

I don't think Oona claims that he's recognized the MitD. In fact, “like in wildest dreams” sounds to me more like he's never seen any beast like that. O-Chul or Redcloak may have recognized him.

Oona is a she.

[Keltest]

Please read the first post. These thoughts have been proposed before, and are addressed in post 1.

In short, the SBGH called him "one of those", which I'd say discards the possibility of uniqueness. And while shapeshifting can never be entirely discarded, if feels rather unlikely that in a game where clues are being given to figure out what the creature might be, that he'd go with the one type of creature that can simply render all such clues false.

Grey Wolf

But you think the Protean is a likely candidate?

[Qwertystop]

But you think the Protean is a likely candidate?

The Protean can't shapeshift freely enough to "render all clues false". It's about as close as one can get without doing that, but its shifting does have limits. For one thing, it's never going to look like anything other than a Protean – that being a constantly-shifting blob of parts. As far as powers go, it can only get Ex abilities from existing other creatures, which is a long way short of being able to do whatever it wants (though it does get quite a lot).

That's a long way short of some unique shapeshifter that could disguise itself as, and thus be mistaken for, something more common.

[Keltest]

The Protean can't shapeshift freely enough to "render all clues false". It's about as close as one can get without doing that, but its shifting does have limits. For one thing, it's never going to look like anything other than a Protean – that being a constantly-shifting blob of parts. As far as powers go, it can only get Ex abilities from existing other creatures, which is a long way short of being able to do whatever it wants (though it does get quite a lot).

That's a long way short of some unique shapeshifter that could disguise itself as, and thus be mistaken for, something more common.

That seems like a fairly semantic difference when the features that would distinguish it from the unbridled shapeshifter are the ones we cant observe.

[Qwertystop]

That seems like a fairly semantic difference when the features that would distinguish it from the unbridled shapeshifter are the ones we cant observe.

No? Aveline suggested a shapeshifter as a reason the characters who seemed to recognize MitD might be wrong. The Protean can't pull that off. Also, if MitD does something that we can't find as an Ex ability, a Protean couldn't do that either. It hasn't, yet, as far as I know, but there's any number of things that aren't available as Ex that might come up whenever the Monster's next scene happens.

[Keltest]

No? Aveline suggested a shapeshifter as a reason the characters who seemed to recognize MitD might be wrong. The Protean can't pull that off. Also, if MitD does something that we can't find as an Ex ability, a Protean couldn't do that either. It hasn't, yet, as far as I know, but there's any number of things that aren't available as Ex that might come up whenever the Monster's next scene happens.

Pretty much by definition we cant prove that something isn't available as an Ex ability. And the main argument about the eyes indeed requires the MITD-as-Protean to be pulling off exactly what is suggested. It seems unlikely that the SBGHs would mistake a protean for anything but a protean, but then it also strikes me as unlikely that a Protean would have eyes stable in the same place for years on end for exactly the same reasons.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That seems like a fairly semantic difference when the features that would distinguish it from the unbridled shapeshifter are the ones we cant observe.

I've explained the difference to you, Keltest, in no fewer than two distinct occasions. I must assume that you are not interested in honest conversation, and thus this is notice that I will not continue to engage with you in this topic.

Grey Wolf

[Keltest]

I've explained the difference to you, Keltest, in no fewer than two distinct occasions. I must assume that you are not interested in honest conversation, and thus this is notice that I will not continue to engage with you in this topic.

Grey Wolf

And I have found those explanations unsatisfying on two distinct occasions. I respect your right to hold an opinion on this matter, but that doesn't extend to agreeing with the logic you used to come to it.

[b_jonas]

I wonder, can we make any inferences from this quote by the Giant? Would it be worth to include it in the first posts?

The reveal is a crucial part of the story and it will happen when it's time for it to happen.

Update: fixed the link to the Giant's post. Sorry for the mistake. Thank you for pointing it out, Qwertystop.

[Qwertystop]

I wonder, can we make any inferences from this quote by the Giant? Would it be worth to include it in the first posts?

That link goes to a post which does not match the text in the quote, on a page which contains no such post and no mention of the MitD. Cite source, please.

[Aveline]

That link goes to a post which does not match the text in the quote, on a page which contains no such post and no mention of the MitD. Cite source, please.

Here you go. This post has ID 19160428; the other post has ID 9160428--probably just a copy/paste error.

Shout out to Jasdoif for maintaining the Index of the Giant's Comments.

[Qwertystop]

Ah. Okay, confirmed as real quote.

It's definitely a Thing The Giant Said About The Monster, but I'm not sure that it helps. We know the moment is important, but without knowing why all we get is wild speculation and more of people saying that because they can't think of a way a given species would be dramatic, it can't possibly be them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I wonder, can we make any inferences from this quote by the Giant? Would it be worth to include it in the first posts?

It's information is redundant with the assurance that a reveal is happening, and we already have that in the first post ("I've been imagining the scene for MITD's eventual reveal for like nine years now"). Yes, I know some people see that and jump to the conclusion that the species of MitD must be crucial to the plot, but it is just that: an unwarranted jump to a conclusion. It seems to far more likely, given Rich's views on the subject, that the reveal will be important to the plot because of MitD's characterization and likely finally deciding to think for himself.

Grey Wolf

[LadyEowyn]

I don't think Oona claims that he's recognized the MitD. In fact, “like in wildest dreams” sounds to me more like he's never seen any beast like that. O-Chul or Redcloak may have recognized him.

Oona also said that MITD is "so small, but will grow in time!" That indicates that she knows something about his creature type and its characteristics. It's also consistent with MITD's statement that his father was huge.

The hunters in the jungle also recognized it, and were surprised to find it in the jungle and surprised that it could talk (and especially that it could speak Common).

So, we can reasonably know that the MITD is recognizable by people with specialized knowledge (the hunters, Redcloak, Oona) but not by most regular people (the circus managers and villagers).

Also, that its kind are usually non-speaking, do not typically inhabit the jungle, and are usually much larger than MITD is. Since MITD appears to be Large, and is unusually small for its species, its creature type should be something Huge or Gargantuan.

EDIT: For reference - and so that I can remember - I went back to the previous thread and found the post where Crusher listed creatures that could cast Wish (which I regard as by far the most straightforward explanation for the "Escape" scene).

The list of monsters able to cast Wish (or Miracle) without class levels extraneous to the creature (which I agree are a terrible answer) is pretty short. Of the ones proposed, the only ones I can think of (excluding undead, because we know he's not undead and there are a bunch of undead with high caster levels, or ones that are obviously wrong, like "he's secretly Zeus!") are:

- Crystalle
- Dread Linnorm (I think)
- Djinn/Genie
- General Ox
- Glabrezu
- Pit Fiend
- Planatar/Solar (I always forget which is more powerful. They can cast Miracle, right?)
- Zodar

Also, I think Ki-rin can cast Miracle, but surprisingly enough, no one seems to have suggested it. Finally, I feel like one of the spiritual, quasi-Hindu elephant candidates can cast Miracle but I can't remember which one.

The Dread Linnorm doesn't see, especially unusual-looking (it's basically a type of dragon); but, in addition to having thw Wish spell, it also has a feat that flings an opponent 120 feet, which fits the MITD hitting Miko in a way that throws her.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The Dread Linnorm doesn't see, especially unusual-looking (it's basically a type of dragon); but, in addition to having thw Wish spell, it also has a feat that flings an opponent 120 feet, which fits the MITD hitting Miko in a way that throws her.

It does not look that much like a dragon, but it does have the problem of having two heads (for a total of four eyes) and, most damningly, being colossal in size.

Grey Wolf

[LadyEowyn]

It does not look that much like a dragon, but it does have the problem of having two heads (for a total of four eyes) and, most damningly, being colossal in size.

Grey Wolf

I agree that the two heads are an issue.

I don't consider the size to be an issue; we've been told more than once that the MITD is unusually small for his creature type (Oona's comment, plus the MITD saying his father was huge), so really we should only be considering creatures that are larger than the MITD appears to be.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I agree that the two heads are an issue.

I don't consider the size to be an issue; we've been told more than once that the MITD is unusually small for his creature type (Oona's comment, plus the MITD saying his father was huge), so really we should only be considering creatures that are larger than the MITD appears to be.

MitD is currently about medium size, with the eyes of a Large creature. Such creatures are fetus sized compared to a colossal creature. There is a difference between “he will grow larger” and “he’s smaller than a newborn”

As per consensus, this thread does not consider creatures larger than Huge for FBS. Indeed, that’s the filter that removed the dread linnorm from the FBS list.

Grey Wolf