MitD XI: A good man

[Peelee]

Yeah, Ruck put forth much better than I could a good list of the reasons I think Protean is the strongest choice. I have one other very strong reason I believe it, but that is the most subjective reason I'm aware of, so I've never bothered to toss it out there.

[Mad Humanist]

Visually, its not so much a monster as a bad acid trip.

I think this is pretty close to Oona's description of him.

The only alternative I can think of is the inter-dimensional bigfoot. This might be what people were thinking of when they suggested Yeti. Of course if the loonies who believe in this are correct, there is no reason to believe Bigfoot can teleport other creatures so that would be another fudge.

Do people find it frustrating or exciting that there has been no "Aha" moment?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And now that I think about it, MiTD is consistently shown being able to keep the umbrella above him without actually grasping the umbrella, so maybe something telekinetic is in play, rather than it being hand-waved to allow a big reveal later. And he's able to do the same thing with the bucket of paint, presumably while still holding the brush and the umbrella.

On the other hand, in the circus he was forced to rock his cage in order to get hold of a bucket of stew, so telekinesis seems to be unlikely. I, with my paltry 10-ish strength can hold a bucket of paint and an umbrella in one hand, if with some difficulty due to the weight of the former. Had I 50 strength instead, it’d be trivial, I’d think.

GW

[Darth Paul]

On the other hand, in the circus he was forced to rock his cage in order to get hold of a bucket of stew, so telekinesis seems to be unlikely. I, with my paltry 10-ish strength can hold a bucket of paint and an umbrella in one hand, if with some difficulty due to the weight of the former. Had I 50 strength instead, it’d be trivial, I’d think.

GW

And it seems like a Protean would be able to simply extrude something to reach the bucket. Then again, a young Protean who is not yet aware of his powers might not be in full control of his shape-changing abilities either... so this argument is a push.

I know my argument comes down either way to artistic license, which I mentioned in the previous thread... but it's hiding the single biggest clue from us, one which would immediately cause informed readers to say "Oh yeah- Protean" when the Thing in the Box suddenly had 3 eyes in one scene, 1 in another, then was back to the conventional number for the next strip... while confusing the bejabbers out of the majority (which would include your humble servant, pre- the time I started reading this thread). If, that is, he turns out to be a Protean.

That is a fair candidate, though, just not one I'm throwing a vote behind- purely for the personal reason that I would be disappointed if it turns out correct.

[Ruck]

And it seems like a Protean would be able to simply extrude something to reach the bucket. Then again, a young Protean who is not yet aware of his powers might not be in full control of his shape-changing abilities either... so this argument is a push.

I know my argument comes down either way to artistic license, which I mentioned in the previous thread... but it's hiding the single biggest clue from us, one which would immediately cause informed readers to say "Oh yeah- Protean" when the Thing in the Box suddenly had 3 eyes in one scene, 1 in another, then was back to the conventional number for the next strip... while confusing the bejabbers out of the majority (which would include your humble servant, pre- the time I started reading this thread). If, that is, he turns out to be a Protean.

That is a fair candidate, though, just not one I'm throwing a vote behind- purely for the personal reason that I would be disappointed if it turns out correct.

I guess what you consider a bug, I consider a feature. I think Rich knows how well-versed at least the hardcore part of his audience is in D&D, and he wouldn't want MITD's species to be a slam dunk for anyone to know before he reveals it.

[halfeye]

I know my argument comes down either way to artistic license, which I mentioned in the previous thread... but it's hiding the single biggest clue from us, one which would immediately cause informed readers to say "Oh yeah- Protean" when the Thing in the Box suddenly had 3 eyes in one scene, 1 in another, then was back to the conventional number for the next strip... while confusing the bejabbers out of the majority (which would include your humble servant, pre- the time I started reading this thread). If, that is, he turns out to be a Protean.

I think I agree with this analysis. The way I see it, determining and hiding the identity of the MitD is a game, like reading a whodunnit is a game, and drawing a protean with always two eyes would be cheating at the game, I don't think Mr Berlew would cheat, so I think the MitD naturally has two eyes.

[Crusher]

Statistically, most creatures have two eyes and teeth. Who's to say that the MitD doesn't change its form to have multiple eyes in one of the many, many times the camera isn't on him?

Consistent form and eyes are my biggest problem with MitD being a Protean (as an aside we should watch to see if he ever hits or touches something twice, which should destabilize the target's form), because its not as easy as that. A protean doesn't just change form. Constantly switching from person to dragon to squid would cause trouble for the size, shape and eyes, but that hugely understates the issue.

Half a protean would be the person WHILE the other half turns into the dragon's head WHILE its 3rd half turns into part of a squid, and somehow it still has a couple more halves that may or may not be simultaneously turning into other things. And it doesn't just turn into a dragon and then stop once part of it is a dragon.

Part of it starts turning into a dragon, and before its even done part of the dragon starts turning into a fire hydrant and another part starts turning into a puppy while all of its other parts ALSO start turning into new things WHILE they're still turning into whatever the prior thing was. Having it remain the same size and shape, with totally consistent eyes, isn't just a problem. It runs contrary to a Protean's entire nature.

Which isn't to say that its *not* a Protean. Heck I don't know what MitD really is and the Protean is a really strong candidate.. And as noted, all the FBS candidates have problems and it is indeed just a matter of which flaws you're willing to overlook.

[Quartz]

Consistent form and eyes are my biggest problem with MitD being a Protean (as an aside we should watch to see if he ever hits or touches something twice, which should destabilize the target's form)

Then we have evidence that the Monster is not a Protean, because O-Chul should have destabilised after the Azure City battle when the Monster was dragging him around.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Then we have evidence that the Monster is not a Protean, because O-Chul should have destabilised after the Azure City battle when the Monster was dragging him around.

Are you are suggesting MitD slammed O-Chul twice before starting to drag him around? Because as objections to the protean go, this one is particularly straw-grasping.

GW

[Crusher]

Are you are suggesting MitD slammed O-Chul twice before starting to drag him around?

Yeah, its not a "touch" thing. it has to land two or more Slam attacks on the same target in the same round for Destabilize Form to kick in. That's not much of a problem since it typically has 5 attacks/round (it head-butts you with the dragon head and then whacks you with the puppy and then the person-part kicks you twice, etc) all of which count as slams and it has a +54 to-hit.

It needs to actually *hit* someone twice, but after that, there's no saving through or anything. They just take a bunch of extra regular damage, some CON damage, and your physical form partly gets "destabilized" the specifics of which aren't described other than the damage and "If the victim is drained to 0 Constitution, its dead body is only so much clear fluid that drains away unless somehow preserved by friends of the victim."

So, I'm guessing there'd be a visual effect.

[Emanick]

Yeah, Ruck put forth much better than I could a good list of the reasons I think Protean is the strongest choice. I have one other very strong reason I believe it, but that is the most subjective reason I'm aware of, so I've never bothered to toss it out there.

What’s your subjective reason? I hold your gut in fairly high regard, so I’d be curious to hear.

[DaggerPen]

My argument basically comes down to artistic license, looking at it from the other end. If we assume the MITD is a Protean, how would Rich draw him?

Given that

1)Rich started drawing the MITD before he knew what species he was;
2)Rich wants to keep the MITD's species a secret until the dramatic reveal near the end of the book;
3)Rich chose the MITD's species for storytelling purposes;

I think Rich would continue to draw the MITD consistently with the manner he had before, because changing the art would give away the game. I also think that he would not let that potential art inconsistency get in the way of the story he wanted to tell. (In other words, I think if he thought Protean was best for the story, he would not decide that he can't use it because the artwork had been inconsistent with how a Protean might be depicted.)

There's also the fact that none of the suggestions we've come up with are perfect fits, so you have to fudge something somewhere. I think this is the most minor fudge, and so with that in addition to why I think the Protean is best for storytelling purposes, it gets my vote. (Mechanically, I think the Athasian Nightmare Beast is the only one that comes close to the Protean for fit, but "wasn't actually released when Rich decided, but he knew about it in advance" is a significantly bigger fudge for me than "eyes shouldn't be consistently placed.")

EDIT: And if you really need a mechanical explanation, Peelee's isn't too bad, when you consider how strongly aware many characters in OOTS seem to be of the fourth wall. It's possible MITD makes a point to present in a two-eyed form when the "camera" is on him.

Signed on to all of this, but I'd add one more thing -

In comic 273, we were first introduced to the Snarl, a force of pure chaos and malevolence formed purely from the tangled strings of reality and given hatred by the bickering of the gods. And you know what it has? It has freaking eyes.

Granted, this is a crayon flashback, and the real Snarl may or may not have eyes - and may or may not even be what we expected it to. But to me, the MitD having eyes hearkens back to a period of time in the comic when the simplified art style just stuck OOTS-styled eyes on creatures in general. I don't see it as a cheat so much as a stylistic artifact, and wouldn't consider it in bad faith to have consistent eyes on a Protean as a result.

[Peelee]

What’s your subjective reason? I hold your gut in fairly high regard, so I’d be curious to hear.

Huh. That's really cool to hear. Thanks! Also, keep in mind this is extremely subjective.

So, I was one of the people who at one point argued that the monster would likely be iconic, since a fair amount of the readership is unfamiliar with Dungeons and Dragons, and even way back then I didn't think the author would have put in something like, "Oh look it's an obscure monster from Monster Manual IV revised edition," because that doesn't seem like it would be good storytelling. However, there were very reasonable counterpoints to that, which I eventually accepted. Thing is, there's still the whole issue of how to handle the reveal of a monster that will likely be a completely unfamiliar concept to a vast amount of the readership, even arguably a good amount of people who are familiar with Dungeons and Dragons. Supposing it is, for example, a Black Slaad, it seems difficult for the reveal to come off as anything but anti-climactic for a lot of people (keeping in mind that better writers than I could conceivably have a Black Slaad or whatever reveal be well done, of course, but I'm going with the odds here).

The Protean has a huge strength in this regard, though, since its ever-changing nature would open the door to a reveal that would both have an easy punchline as well as relate to everyone who wouldn't recognize it; a much better version of:

Characters: Finally we'll know what the Monster is!
Monster: [out of the darkness] Aha! I am revealed!
Characters: ....so that didn't help at all, I still have no idea.

So yeah. Subjective as all get out, and not even strong enough to hang your hat on. But it seems to make a bit of sense to me.
For reals, btw, I was planning on not answering if anyone pressed me on it, but turns out flattery will get you everywhere.

[Ruck]

That doesn't seem any less subjective than my idea that, given the MITD's character development, the most appropriate monster for him to be would be one that can literally be whatever he wants if he puts his mind to it.

At some point, you gotta come up with an explanation that makes sense to you, yeah?

[DaggerPen]

I still kind of like the idea that the protean's primeval chaos deal is related to the Snarl. It seems like a good way to have your pre-existing creature cake and make it plot-relevant, too.

[Throknor]

Thing is, there's still the whole issue of how to handle the reveal of a monster that will likely be a completely unfamiliar concept to a vast amount of the readership, even arguably a good amount of people who are familiar with Dungeons and Dragons

Counter-point: has it ever been explained to the general reader what a flumph is?
Those two are about as integral to the story as the lawyers but have never been explained other than the obvious that they are soft to land on. Grant, they and the lawyers are more running gags than plot points. But even the fact that they are Lawful Good is obliquely implied when necessary in the Azure City tunnels.

OK, those are low importance gag characters. But the important facts about MITD for the story are already established.

• It is/should be scary, in general and possibly in looks
• It's usually evil - or at least Redcloak and Xykon assumed it is willing to help them when they acquired it.
• It's strong
• It has hidden magical powers of some sort
• O-Chul befriended it

I'm actually coming around to the point that unless it is a fallen or half-greek god or (even less likely) snarl jr. then its actual species/type/what-have-you doesn't matter to the story and could be barely touched on.

Other creatures shown but not really explained by name or abilities:

• The lawyer-spawning brain sucker
• The tree stump with a rabbit
• The displacer beasts
• Grubwiggler
• What Oona was riding
• More I can't look up at work

Yes, these characters are all of varying degrees of importance to the story. But my point is that it has always been more important what a character can do than what they are and that only what needs to be explained will be. And that the MITD "reveal" will be more important story-wise for what he does than what he is.

[woweedd]

Counter-point: has it ever been explained to the general reader what a flumph is?
Those two are about as integral to the story as the lawyers but have never been explained other than the obvious that they are soft to land on. Grant, they and the lawyers are more running gags than plot points. But even the fact that they are Lawful Good is obliquely implied when necessary in the Azure City tunnels.

OK, those are low importance gag characters. But the important facts about MITD for the story are already established.

• It is/should be scary, in general and possibly in looks
• It's usually evil - or at least Redcloak and Xykon assumed it is willing to help them when they acquired it.
• It's strong
• It has hidden magical powers of some sort
• O-Chul befriended it

I'm actually coming around to the point that unless it is a fallen or half-greek god or (even less likely) snarl jr. then its actual species/type/what-have-you doesn't matter to the story and could be barely touched on.

Other creatures shown but not really explained by name or abilities:

• The lawyer-spawning brain sucker
• The tree stump with a rabbit
• The displacer beasts
• Grubwiggler
• What Oona was riding
• More I can't look up at work

Yes, these characters are all of varying degrees of importance to the story. But my point is that it has always been more important what a character can do than what they are and that only what needs to be explained will be. And that the MITD "reveal" will be more important story-wise for what he does than what he is.

Oh, no doubt. I'm pretty sure MITD's reveal will come at a vital point in the story, but it won't be vital FOR that. Personally, i'm betting that O-Chul or someone is threatened, and MITD finally stands up and exits his cloud in order to save them. That's a vital scene, and what exactly MITD is had nothing to do with it.

[Peelee]

Counter-point: has it ever been explained to the general reader what a flumph is?
Those two are about as integral to the story as the lawyers but have never been explained other than the obvious that they are soft to land on.

Odd-looking monster introduced early on with no fanfare, vs mystery lasting likely the vast majority of the comic. There's a pretty big difference in scale there. Knowing nothing about flumphs, a non-D&D player would read the comic and think, "huh, weird-lookin' monster, ok." Knowing nothing about, say, flimphs, a similarly strange and relatively obscure creature from Basic Dungeons and Dragons 2.5 which fits the clues to a T, a non-D&D player knowing nothing about them would read the comic and think, "well that was a letdown, the hell is that thing?"

Plus, I like longshot bets, so I'm perfectly happy putting my money on "Proteon, and whoever it's revealed to also won't recognize it, as the page-end punchline."

[halfeye]

I've been thinking about neutron stars and black holes, and came to the point of thinking that's funny, that sort of looks like an umbrella, which brought to mind MitD.

So I think the MitD could be an animated black hole, a small one, an Earth mass one has an even horizon of about one cm, so that would do. It would be amazing for one to talk, and the attacks with weapons doing anything other than taking chunks out of the weapons would be surprising.

So could I please be put down as guessing a black hole for #1, and I would like to keep the Boojum for #2 please.

[woweedd]

I've been thinking about neutron stars and black holes, and came to the point of thinking that's funny, that sort of looks like an umbrella, which brought to mind MitD.

So I think the MitD could be an animated black hole, a small one, an Earth mass one has an even horizon of about one cm, so that would do. It would be amazing for one to talk, and the attacks with weapons doing anything other than taking chunks out of the weapons would be surprising.

So could I please be put down as guessing a black hole for #1, and I would like to keep the Boojum for #2 please.

Hm...New guess, but as you said, how does it not destroy anything that comes in contact with it?

[hamishspence]

Umbral Blots are the D&D "sapient black hole" creature - but they're constructs:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm

and their capabilities are somewhat different from the Monster's.

[b_jonas]

So could I please be put down as guessing a black hole for #1, and I would like to keep the Boojum for #2 please.

You are free to bet for whatever you want, but if you want to suggest such a thing and have anyone else pay attention, I recommend that you try to answer the five questions from the "Newcomers, please read" section. For the black hole that is. We've discussed Snarks and Boojums enough, there's not much new you can say about them.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Umbral Blots are the D&D "sapient black hole" creature - but they're constructs:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/umbralBlot.htm

and their capabilities are somewhat different from the Monster's.

They do, however, have access to wish, so they are far from the worst possibility.

GW

[Crusher]

I've been thinking about neutron stars and black holes, and came to the point of thinking that's funny, that sort of looks like an umbrella, which brought to mind MitD.

So I think the MitD could be an animated black hole, a small one, an Earth mass one has an even horizon of about one cm, so that would do. It would be amazing for one to talk, and the attacks with weapons doing anything other than taking chunks out of the weapons would be surprising.

So could I please be put down as guessing a black hole for #1, and I would like to keep the Boojum for #2 please.

Sure thing! Its all set.

[Darth Tom]

I just started reading Schlock Mercenary having seen the "amorph" possibility here. This isn't guess, but I did find the backstory parallels here to be very interesting. Even if it's not what MitD is, Rich seems to have done at least a homage to the scene:

- "hunters"
- circus
- Redcloak and Xykon as the pirates looking to recruit him.

[b_jonas]

I have a really wild speculation.

So, consider what happened before the escape scene, specifically in #654. O-Chul, the model paladin, gets away from the MitD hastily, and joins Vaarsuvius. In the last moment, he gives the MitD a reassurance that he's got enough hints now, and has figured out that the MitD is a good man. O-Chul has clearly befriended the MitD, they must have talked a lot off-screen. But when exactly does O-Chul do this, and what happened before and after?

In #652, Vaarsuvius admits that he is “channeling the raw unlimited energies of two of the most powerful souls ever damned to the lower plane”. O-Chul heard this, and so he knew that by the paladin code of conduct, he mustn't associate with Vaarsuvius, because he's helped by two Evil souls. In #653, Xykon makes the two evil souls leave Vaarsuvius, so O-Chul is now free to join her.

But I had also speculated that the MitD has powers to capture one or both of those Evil souls, and use their magic. If O-Chul knew that the MitD had such powers, then he also knew that it was his duty to get away from the MitD now, so that he is no longer associating with Evil people. He shouts an assurance that the MitD himself is a good man, and he's not leaving because of him, he's leaving because of his captured souls. The MitD will occupy the Evil souls for a while, in which case they'll do less harm than they'd do in the while, the same as Roy steers Belkar into a less harmful path. The MitD is thus doing a good thing by capturing those Evil souls (perhaps until the IFCC retrieves them). Nevertheless, it is O-Chul's duty as a paladin is to leave immediately, because he can't knowingly associate with those Evil souls, just as he wouldn't be allowed to associate with Belkar.

You all know the rest. In #661, the MitD commands one of the Evil mages to let O-Chul and Vaarsuvius escape, and they obey by one of them casting a greater teleport spell. O-Chul has followed the code of conduct properly and doesn't fall from being a paladin.

(Update: I admit I'm not as awed by the current storyline the Giant is writing as of #1130 than many other readers have expressed, which is why I was re-reading one of the best parts of the story the Giant has ever written. I find the current storyline good too, but not as exceptional as it seems from all the unreserved praises in the forum threads. But to each their own, this is art, we're allowed to enjoy different parts.)

[3Power]

Hey, something just occurred to me. Have you guys considered that the MitD cast time stop and did a combination of spells/spell like abilities to get V and Ochu out?

[ShikomeKidoMi]

Hm... I noticed the opening post said Athasian Nightmare beasts didn't come out until after Rich created the Monster in the Dark. But I'd like to point out that Nightmare Beasts, with Psionic Teleport, were around in 2nd Edition Dark Sun and we've had 2nd Edition monsters show up in the strip before. That version did predate OoTS significantly. Among other things, it's called out as specifically eating everything it can get its hands on and being able to destroy inanimate objects, including rock formations with attacks.

Admittedly, a full grown Nightmare Beast is 30 feet tall, so there's still some size issues. You're not fitting that under a normal umbrella.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hey, something just occurred to me. Have you guys considered that the MitD cast time stop and did a combination of spells/spell like abilities to get V and Ochu out?

What combination of powers are you thinking of?

Hm... I noticed the opening post said Athasian Nightmare beasts didn't come out until after Rich created the Monster in the Dark. But I'd like to point out that Nightmare Beasts, with Psionic Teleport, were around in 2nd Edition Dark Sun and we've had 2nd Edition monsters show up in the strip before. That version did predate OoTS significantly. Among other things, it's called out as specifically eating everything it can get its hands on and being able to destroy inanimate objects, including rock formations with attacks.

Admittedly, a full grown Nightmare Beast is 30 feet tall, so there's still some size issues. You're not fitting that under a normal umbrella.

2nd ed creatures have great difficulty being MitD due to needing to explain how they escaped Dorukan's dungeon 2nd ed creature trap. Beyond that, you'd need to provide such details as listed strength and defences - both tend to be substantially lower in 2nd ed, and as per the "all 2d ed creatures are easily targeted because they retain their original sheets, and thus no will defence", those would need to be taken as stated.

Grey Wolf

[b_jonas]

Hey, something just occurred to me. Have you guys considered that the MitD cast time stop and did a combination of spells/spell like abilities to get V and Ochu out?

That would both be an overkill and doesn't really help explain anything. Time Stop is a more difficult spell than Greater Teleport, and O-Chul and Vaarsuvius still had to get over 100 miles from the dungeon, so you likely eventually need a Greater Teleport anyway. There's no way the Time Stop helps.