OOTS #1126 - The Discussion Thread

[AstralFire]

And the reason Durkon was chosen? He did not die with honor.

I didn't think about that. Perfect.

[ti'esar]

I'm not afraid to admit that I can't really put the pieces together here. Durkon's father dying before he was born, Durkon learning he's a father only after he died, the 25,000 gp donation matching a resurrection spell - I think this all has to connect to why he's so certain that this memory at this moment will help beat the vampire, but still can't quite see how.

[AstralFire]

I'm not afraid to admit that I can't really put the pieces together here. Durkon's father dying before he was born, Durkon learning he's a father only after he died, the 25,000 gp donation matching a resurrection spell - I think this all has to connect to why he's so certain that this memory at this moment will help beat the vampire, but still can't quite see how.

Well, if we run with Nion's excellent point, then it means that for a while? Hel had Durkon and Lurkon both in her grips. She would have been the earliest agent of Durkon/Lurkon's misery. Lurkon might take that personally. He does seem to bear Durkon's grudges personified, albeit bolstered beyond any control or reason.

[ThePhantasm]

I just realized Durkula's move here is especially cruel given that he knows about Roy's baby brother dying, and given that he taunted Roy with that in their previous fight. Before, that taunt made Roy's sword ignite, now the threat to a child makes his sword fizzle as he loses focus / the will to fight.

[Thurulian]

I just realized Durkula's move here is especially cruel given that he knows about Roy's baby brother dying, and given that he taunted Roy with that in their previous fight. Before, that taunt made Roy's sword ignite, now the threat to a child makes his sword fizzle as he loses focus / the will to fight.

I almost forgot about that. it seems like this climax is gonna be an epic and emotional one

[Mandor]

I'm guessing Sigdi chose not to have her husband ressurrected becuase he was undeniably, indisputiably, dying with honor in the line of duty.
That makes him absolutely 100% SAFE from Hel.

And to dwarven society, that's about as big a deal as you can get. As we have from Hel herself, Thor guided the dwarves into creating the most honor-bound society the world had ever seen.

If someone you love is dead in way, then ressurecting him becomes selfish, requiring them to risk falling prey to Hel if they die dishonorably in the future.
If would be much more honorable, much more your duty, to allow them to remain dead, and safe from Hel.

And being a dwarf is about doin' yer duty. Even when it makes yeh miserable. ESPECIALLY when it makes yeh miserable.

I think she donated the money in part to make sure she would NEVER have the means to have him ressurrected.

[dmc91356]

I'm guessing Sigdi chose not to have her husband ressurrected becuase he was undeniably, indisputiably, dying with honor in the line of duty.
That makes him absolutely 100% SAFE from Hel.

And to dwarven society, that's about as big a deal as you can get. As we have from Hel herself, Thor guided the dwarves into creating the most honor-bound society the world had ever seen.

If someone you love is dead in way, then ressurecting him becomes selfish, requiring them to risk falling prey to Hel if they die dishonorably in the future.
If would be much more honorable, much more your duty, to allow them to remain dead, and safe from Hel.

And being a dwarf is about doin' yer duty. Even when it makes yeh miserable. ESPECIALLY when it makes yeh miserable.

I think she donated the money in part to make sure she would NEVER have the means to have him ressurrected.

I like this interpretation. Very interesting and, well, dwarfish.

[Peelee]

The True Resurrection wasn't for Durkon's father.

It was for Durkon.

She was pregnant with him at the time. She miscarried due to the severe injuries she faced. The lock of hair that was buried in lieu of his body was one that Sigdi had planned on using to help resurrect -him-, but she chose Durkon over him. And that's not a choice any child should have to learn that their mother made.

Interesting theory, but the lock of hair is irrelevant to it. Resurrection needs it to be part of the person at time of death (it wasn't part of Durkon at any time), and Giants statements of True Res aside, that spell doesn't need any part of the person.

[AstralFire]

Interesting theory, but the lock of hair is irrelevant to it. Resurrection needs it to be part of the person at time of death (it wasn't part of Durkon at any time), and Giants statements of True Res aside, that spell doesn't need any part of the person.

I did consider that, but Resurrection is a lot cheaper than True Resurrection. It means that when she changed plans, she had to spend a lot more money. This same presence of the lock of hair is what rules out a True Resurrection for Durkon's father -- they had a piece of the body they could have used.

[ProfLucario]

Well, there is precedent, after all.

Yes, that's what I was referring to, where the comic gives a ton of names to refer to the vampire, but there's no consensus on which name to actually use.

[enh]

Man, the titles have always been good in this comic, but today's is pure gold.

[Shatteredtower]

In the unlikely event the Giant reads this, I would love--NOT expect, nor request, nor even hope for--the continuation to this story tomorrow. I'm not saying this to pressure him, nor am I in the least bothered in knowing he don't feel the slightest bit of pressure. I only mentioning it because letting him know I'm eager to see what happens next is the highest form of non-hyperbolic praise I could offer.

Even if a swimming pool full of cash might be more welcome.

Oh and btw, everybody who called Hilgya out for being a terrible mother for wearing her baby into battle on the front of her chest rather than leave it behind in safety are proven 100% right.

Are they? I'm afraid I've known too many campaigns where player characters only form bonds with one another, as they've heard one too many stories of NPC love interests and families dying the moment they're out of sight. It's not fair, but I understand why some people become afraid to take that chance.

So Hilgya, a high level Cleric, fails a Will save to be Dominated, then fails a Will save to attack an ally who's attacking someone she utterly, utterly hates...

If that was grounds for a new saving throw, the spell may as well have a new saving throw allowed every round. It just stinks of reaching.

Granted, I'd understand why any party that faced a horde of vampires all capable of casting Dispel Magic would feel entitled to start reaching for any pretext to make a new saving throw--and I'd hope the DM would try to be accommodating as necessity required (or creativity earned), but that's within the context of a game. I'd prefer to see the Giant aim for a higher bar here.

[Jasdoif]

I did consider that, but Resurrection is a lot cheaper than True Resurrection. It means that when she changed plans, she had to spend a lot more money. This same presence of the lock of hair is what rules out a True Resurrection for Durkon's father -- they had a piece of the body they could have used.

I'm presently entertaining the possibility that Sigdi gave up the diamonds to resurrect Tenrin (who died with honor) so the priests of Thor could resurrect someone else (who didn't)...which could also account for why it was considered a "donation". Thankfully, the possibility enjoys card games....

Are they? I'm afraid I've known too many campaigns where player characters only form bonds with one another, as they've heard one too many stories of NPC love interests and families dying the moment they're out of sight. It's not fair, but I understand why some people become afraid to take that chance.

Hilgya was free to not go on a revenge quest that involved going straight into a temple in an attempt to murder a high-level spellcaster there. Unlike a PC in a campaign, there's no central game conceit that Hilgya needs to be going on adventures; she could have kept Kudzu in sight and out of harm's way, by not going into harm's way.

[Keltest]

Eh, I'm not saying all DMs track arrows. You, however, are saying all DMs don't track arrows (and material components, and hundreds of feet of rope or poles, and whatever else y'all don't track), and that's how the universe is built. If y'all play like that and enjoy it, more power to you. But if you're going to make claims about the comic based on your houserules, don't be surprised if you're called on it.

So hey, remember that comic that specifically talked about how Haley didn't really manage her arrows? Because I do.

*yes, im well aware she keeps more arrows in her bags of holding, but since taking an item out of one that is filled more than a normal bag is a full action, she's obviously not just pulling them out of there as needed.

[Xel]

I just realized Durkula's move here is especially cruel given that he knows about Roy's baby brother dying, and given that he taunted Roy with that in their previous fight. Before, that taunt made Roy's sword ignite, now the threat to a child makes his sword fizzle as he loses focus / the will to fight.

Hmm. This is the one idea I’ve seen that actually concerns me. I’ve been having some trouble buying that the Order is in serious trouble, because Roy hasn’t hulked out yet — he’s effectively got at least one “full restoration & healing” that he should be able to use. That should be enough to do for Ponchella and the other cleric. Even the Kudzu-shield shouldn’t be impassable, since if Roy fails, the world ends and Kudzu dies anyway. I could see it being a difficult decision, some serious heart-wrenching, and years of self-flagellation/atonement afterwards, but I’d think Roy could make that choice.

But this thought is interesting. Having to agonize over the choice may deny him his ability to use the Weapon of Legacy powers. No confidence/certainty in the action, so it would’t work. Hmm.

[Jasdoif]

I could see it being a difficult decision, some serious heart-wrenching, and years of self-flagellation/atonement afterwards, but I’d think Roy could make that choice.

Well....I'm pretty sure Hilgya's not the forgiving type, and this was already a murder quest for her.

[Kish]

A hundred gold says Roy is not going to throw his sword through Kudzu.

[Aquillion]

The characters of the OotS are notoriously poorly built. Look at Roy, for example: he has not properly dump-statted his Int score, and he has skill points invested in non-combat skills that don't apply to mobility. I know a couple of players who could munchkin the OotS characters for upwards of 50% increase in combat effectiveness.

While this is true, it simply isn't possible to build a Cleric with a bad Will Save while still being capable of casting spells. Not only do they get a strong will save simply by gaining levels, they also require Wisdom to cast spells, which also increases their Will save. Even if she was intentionally building her character as badly as possible, the simple fact that she's at least capable of casting spells shows that she must have a fairly high Will save (even if Roy had 18 Wisdom, for instance, and even if she had the bare minimum necessary to cast her spells, her Will save would still be significantly higher than his.)

I mean, I know, I know, it's based on what makes a good story, and the way the comic has portrayed someone as "strong-willed" is more important than mechanics. And if we really care about mechanics, maybe she just rolled two 1s.

But I couldn't resist pointing this out. You simply can't build a Cleric with a low will save who is still capable of casting high-level spells (and she clearly is.) It's not a matter of the characters not being optimized, it's just flatly impossible, since she's unable to make Wisdom her dump stat while still being a spellcaster. She could have a slightly-lower will save than a really optimized cleric, sure, but going by mechanics her will save almost has to be significantly higher than Roy's.

[AstralFire]

but going by mechanics her will save almost has to be significantly higher than Roy's.

At this point Roy is basically a modern, post-3E paladin whose smiting comes from his sword rather than through his sword, and I wouldn't be surprised if it carries with it will save protections.

Although tbh, despite Roy being the main character I think he's probably the least interesting member of the cast and I admit to being a bit disappointed that it's just him and Durkon basically, with Vaarsuvius a background figure. It wouldn't kill anyone to have Elan making use of his Will save for once and I don't think his Wis is the complete pits, unlike his Int.

[Jasdoif]

At this point Roy is basically a modern, post-3E paladin whose smiting comes from his sword rather than through his sword, and I wouldn't be surprised if it carries with it will save protections.

I suspect Roy and Vaarsuvius still have active mind blanks, myself.

[Peelee]

So hey, remember that comic that specifically talked about how Haley didn't really manage her arrows? Because I do.

So hey, remember how the author specifically said "assume the rules are followed until they aren't?" Because I do.

5.) As far as this thread goes, or any other attempt to align the events of the comic with D&D, my suggestion is to treat the comic as if it is based on "OOTS RPG," a hypothetical game that is exactly like D&D in every way—except for those ways that the comic shows that it isn't. Everything is D&D until proven otherwise. Because that's sort of how I write it; I use the D&D rules when they fit into the story (and I remember them), and break them when they don't. Thus, you can still extrapolate D&D stats of the characters unless I show something that simply defies the game as written—like Roy casting a fireball. And you can still make predictions about what might happen in the future as if it were all going to unfold according to the D&D rules, as long as you understand that hey, maybe I might fudge that one. And then don't complain if I do.

I've never argued arrows aren't tracked in the strip. I took issue with "X isn't tracked in the strip because they nobody tracks them in games, based on my personal experience." I have yet to see a convincing argument otherwise. Such as a strip that shows it's not being followed.

ETA: I'll cop to the post you replied to not being well-written on this point.

[Kish]

At this point Roy is basically a modern, post-3E paladin

Are you using four words to say "5E" with less clarity for a reason?

[Grey Watcher]

Like a lot of people, my money is on the sound of Kudzu crying giving Hilgya a new saving throw with a massive circumstance bonus. And once that happens, Greg's within arms reach of a Cleric to whom he's just given a SECOND reason to want to brutally murder him.

I'm more caught up in suspense over Durkon's backstory! My money (heh) is on her being strong-armed (heh) into forgoing a True Resurrection for the late Tenrin Thundershield, which the church declared to be a donation-in-kind.

[Draconi Redfir]

I seriously doubt it. Realistically, it makes less than no sense; dramatically, it's too obvious to be a twist.

Clearly the Troll in the story is Durkon's father, and his mother "donated" all that gold in exchange for having an infant Durkon polymorfed into a dwarf.

[Knaight]

So hey, remember that comic that specifically talked about how Haley didn't really manage her arrows? Because I do.

It doesn't say that. It says that where the arrows are kept is glossed over (Haley isn't drawn with a quiver), which in this case fits pretty neatly with the vagueness of something being kept in an inventory. It doesn't say that how many there are aren't kept track of.

[ti'esar]

Thinking about this, if I was Roy, I'd be more focused on taking out Ponchula (and the last generic dwarf cleric vampire) then on whittling down Not-Durkon's health or concentration anyway.

[blunk]

the rapidly shrinking order

Check out Belkar's size in the first panel. If anything, the Order is growing.

[AstralFire]

Are you using four words to say "5E" with less clarity for a reason?

The paladin has been a supernatural combatant for a long time, but at the beginning of 3E, the Paladin showed its clear roots as a durable anti-magic warrior with a handful of active special skills, like the introduction of Smite Evil. This is also how paladins in OotS are typically shown. Beginning with 3.5 we really saw this get more aggressive. A bigger variety of more ambitious paladin spells, divine power feats, and alternate takes on the Holy Warrior in PrCs, ACFs, and new base classes.

When Pathfinder and 4E both launched, the way that paladins were narratively described was completely different from 3E -- every fight they're expected to use showy holy powers. 5E is just the latest iteration of that and not unique on that front. Concurrently I really began to notice more and more "holy warriors" in other media that use a lot of overt powers but are distinguished from clerics and priests.

So no, I didn't say '5E with less clarity'. I said a post-3E paladin.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Neither I, nor the comic, have to abide by your headcanons. You are demanding that a character that, by the look of it, only has a few in-comic days to exist to behave in a way that runs directly againstwhat he his trying to achieve. That is not, to me, a reasonnable standard of evidence to ask for.

Irrelevant.

That's not what I said.

Lurkon is the same as Durkon was on his worst day, that means the same as Durkon with the emphasis shifted from the nobler parts of his personnality to the vilest.

Durkon on his worst day was still a follower of thor, and didn't blame him, nor disliked him, just the idiots who threw him out. undurkon on his birth was a follower of hel.

I think it was just him being evil taunting the good guy, in retrospect.

[FriendComputer]

Quite the dramatic turn of events.

Kudzos cries should definitely grant a new save. Maybe with bonuses. Kudzo is reacting to a stranger grabbing him and...something doesn't feel right. That one will be a fear / alarm / panic cry that will rock Hilgya.

I'm with the crowd that the 25k gp was spent to save Durkon, over his pa. Losing your arm and your loving husband will make you very miserable... and there is no greater duty than to that of your childs well being.

Which is how the memories are very relevant, imho. A parent will sacrifice everything for their kid. That might be snapping from a mind control spell, or somehow finding the power to temporarily daze an undead jerk that's infesting your corpse.