OOTS #1128 - The Discussion Thread

[Psyren]

Come on Mr.Scruffy, you can do it.

Yeah, he's got this

Sigdi's friends. The ones who have strong feelings about her paying back debts.

Good catch!

[Dutch]

*her. Minrah was a female dwarf.

That is a typo that I did not pick up.

[eilandesq]

Durkula's reaction to Sigdi's choice is a delayed echo to Belkar's obvious shaken, subdued state after witnessing Durkon's sacrifice. Even after all of that character development, Belkar had a lot of monster in him, and Durkon's actions blew through all of that and reached that deeply hidden part of him that was still recognizably "human." It looks like we're about to see a similar moment for something that--at least to all appearances up to now--is as much an unalloyed monster as Xykon, if not more so.

I have a feeling that Sigdi has been offered Regeneration at least once by now--by grateful friends, or perhaps even as an inducement to take up a new job--and has refused it. It might be that she really was waiting for Durkon to be able to cast it--meaning that doing so after his exile would just be a painful reminder of losing him--or she has chosen to embrace the injury in memory of her dead husband. No direct evidence--I just find it hard to believe that the dwarven community would pass up the chance to make a paragon of the community whole and available to serve in a role that would not doom her to Hel's clutches.

[Anarion]

Sigdi is a true altruist. And that’s a moving memory. The comic is also really well laid out, keeping the tension between the two points. The baby’s sad face at the end though.

[Sloanzilla]

Panel 2; Roy heals himself COMPLETELY.
Given daggers low damage output, and that Elan didn't get his Dashing Swordsman bonus (no puns), i expect he is not too badly hurt. (of course, what I know of the rules i learned playing Baldur's hate...)

Prediction: Roy is good at tactics. Now he tries to lure the vampires out from the anti-life shell, using himself as bait.

If his prestige class involves full heal with his weapon, that's pretty darn powerful.

[Corian]

Ok... maybe it was discussed before, but I'm puzzled by Roy's repeated hope for V to dispel the domination. Vampire's Dominate is a Supernatural ability, and as such is immune to dispel magic. Maybe Roy does not know? Maybe different houserule in OOTSverse? Anybody has another idea?

[Going Hereward]

Holy crap this battle has been intense.

Spoiler: Origin of the PCs

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Not sure if this was mentioned since I'm not scouring ten pages, but I love the sense of irony I now feel about that Minrah's death (crushed) compared to The Origin of the PCs where doing the same thing to Durkon was treated as more of a practical joke ("haha, he's boring and he heals").

Also, Minrah's death hits me in the feels. I've been That Cleric before.

[Rockphed]

If his prestige class involves full heal with his weapon, that's pretty darn powerful.

It is his sword, not his class levels, that provides the power to heal him.

[Kish]

Roy has no prestige class. He's a single-classed fighter.

[deuterio12]

This this is the stuff that makes me keep reading this comic.

I believe now it's pretty obvious what's going to happen but the build-up was great.

The Order is down for the count, but Durkon may've just managed to give a new view on (un)life to his vampire counterpart, about altruism and helping people you never saw before at great personal expense. So vampire Durkon will start having second thoughts about the whole "destroy the world" thingy.

Also damn Roy's a badass combat machine, he just solo'd half the Order himself while being harassed by vampire dwarves all the time.

Ok... maybe it was discussed before, but I'm puzzled by Roy's repeated hope for V to dispel the domination. Vampire's Dominate is a Supernatural ability, and as such is immune to dispel magic. Maybe Roy does not know? Maybe different houserule in OOTSverse? Anybody has another idea?

Well he is a fighter that dropped off wizard college, so it makes sense his knowledge skills and spellcraft wouldn't be very good.

[Harbinger]

I disagree with you, Harbinger. If Durkon keeps showing Greg/Durkula his memories in a vain attempt to save his child, he is establishing character even if he fails. It has established the character of his own mother as well. Durkula on the other hand, is a character...But not a human one, if you'll pardon my Gnomish. He is a literal embodiment of evil, incapable of love or compassion. His actions can fail just like the actions of the Sapphire Guard, but that doesn't mean they mean nothing. They mean defeat and bravery in the face of overwhelming odds.

Would the comic have been complete without Durkon's last attempt to save his only son, who is a babe in arms? I would argue no, even if it ends in failure, at least we know what Durkon tried to do in that desperate moment.

That, and I'd rather not have the unholy spirit learn the true meaning of friendship in a contrived way. If Durkula is moved by this memory, I am sure that the Giant has something up his sleeve, but this isn't the Carebears.

I feel like you’ve misunderstood me. If the dwarf squad showed up right now, that wouldn’t be Durkon trying and failing to save his child. That would just be someone else doing something to save the day. Showing the vampire the memory wouldn’t matter one way or the other. Durkon gains nothing by the vampire having seen it. I would be absolutely fine if Durkon tried to use his memory to turn the tide and ultimately failed.

I’m also not suggesting that the vampire would suddenly become Good, or even stop being Evil. A change of heart could mean many things. I also feel that from a thematic standpoint the idea of an “Always Evil” creature doesn’t belong in this comic, regardless of what D&D rules say. The Giant has always seemed fairly repulsed morally with the idea of a creature that is evil by birth and can’t change, and tbh so am I. We even have evidence that “Always Evil” creatures in this comic are capable of love and compassion. For example, Malack’s friendship with Tarquin and Durkon, and Sabine’s love for Nale. I know, I know, Evil people having loved ones doesn’t make them Good, but it shows that they are at the very least capable of Good actions and feelings.

I doubt a change in Durkula will occur all at once, but I do think that the memory will affect him in some way that makes him inclined to spare the party, at least right now.

[Ruck]

One could argue that a tough vamp (or even coven of tough vamps) with a fancy staff and *plans* to bring destruction to the dwarven homeland does not meet the needs of prophecy fulfillment. The vamp/vamps would actually need to bring about the destruction and death for everyone.

Prophecy by its nature is both vaguely worded and will have definite terms of fulfillment. My interpretation is that the prophecy has been fulfilled as I described. Whether someone could argue otherwise doesn't have bearing on my opinion; an actual argument for the case might, but the rest of your post seems to rest on the assumption that another interpretation is true, rather than being an argument that another interpretation is true.

I mean, if you just wanted to speculate on ways the prophecy might be fulfilled under the assumption it hasn't yet, go ahead, but I'm not sure why you quoted me if that's the case.

[jwhouk]

(David Letterman smile and wave)

"Good night! Drive home safely!"

[Honest Tiefling]

Showing the vampire the memory wouldn’t matter one way or the other. Durkon gains nothing by the vampire having seen it. I would be absolutely fine if Durkon tried to use his memory to turn the tide and ultimately failed.

This is what is confusing me. Having the vision have no effect is a failure, but would establish the character of Durkon, and the character that made Durkon who he is. So how is it not narratively important, even if Durkula is unaffected?

I’m also not suggesting that the vampire would suddenly become Good, or even stop being Evil. A change of heart could mean many things.

I'll agree to this point and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the route the Giant chooses to take.

I also feel that from a thematic standpoint the idea of an “Always Evil” creature doesn’t belong in this comic, regardless of what D&D rules say.The Giant has always seemed fairly repulsed morally with the idea of a creature that is evil by birth and can’t change, and tbh so am I.

True, and you are not wrong about 'always evil' races being a little weird, but...A vampire isn't born. It's an evil spirit, so it's a little harder to really give it morality or choice because it is so different from what people are.

We even have evidence that “Always Evil” creatures in this comic are capable of love and compassion. For example, Malack’s friendship with Tarquin and Durkon, and Sabine’s love for Nale. I know, I know, Evil people having loved ones doesn’t make them Good, but it shows that they are at the very least capable of Good actions and feelings.

This is what I disagree with. Malack enjoyed Tarquinn's company and was willing to waste resources on it, but it doesn't show that he cared for Tarquinn in any way. Malack killed Durkon and warped him into an abomination Durkon would have hated, in complete disregard for everything Durkon stood for. Is that love, or compassion or anything positive, or a murder attempting to justify their actions by pretending they are doing it out of kindness?

Nale and Sabine don't seem to have much of a relationship outside of banging. That's not a comment regarding the morality of those happily banging away, but enjoying an activity together doesn't imply love. Remember that Sabine happily had sex with several denizens of the lower planes, to the surprise of Nale. Clearly these two aren't doing too good at communication, and their relationship might only be working because of blood sacrifice.

[The MunchKING]

Ok... maybe it was discussed before, but I'm puzzled by Roy's repeated hope for V to dispel the domination. Vampire's Dominate is a Supernatural ability, and as such is immune to dispel magic. Maybe Roy does not know? Maybe different houserule in OOTSverse? Anybody has another idea?

Break Enchantment still works, IIRC.

[Rrmcklin]

Re: Evil and love, having loved ones isn't exclusive to good people, and you can certainly be evil and still have people you love, as has already been shown in this comic.

Nale and Sabine for one (certainly on Sabine's end, most likely Nale's as well), and have people forgotten the Black Dragon? She was most certainly evil, but the love her son (and husband) and mourning and distress over his lose was portrayed as entirely sincere.

Being capable of love in itself is not a redeeming quality, and its' a mistake to treat it as if it is. So while I can understand why the people arguing against a change of heart are doing so, I also have to say that claiming Nale and Sabine didn't actually love each other is ignoring what was shown and stating multiple times in the comic.

[DaOldeWolf]

This is what I disagree with. Malack enjoyed Tarquinn's company and was willing to waste resources on it, but it doesn't show that he cared for Tarquinn in any way. Malack killed Durkon and warped him into an abomination Durkon would have hated, in complete disregard for everything Durkon stood for. Is that love, or compassion or anything positive, or a murder attempting to justify their actions by pretending they are doing it out of kindness?

Nale and Sabine don't seem to have much of a relationship outside of banging. That's not a comment regarding the morality of those happily banging away, but enjoying an activity together doesn't imply love. Remember that Sabine happily had sex with several denizens of the lower planes, to the surprise of Nale. Clearly these two aren't doing too good at communication, and their relationship might only be working because of blood sacrifice.

Malack tried to "reason" with Durkon before engaging combat. He also decided to follow Durkon´s last request. He didnt tell Nale about the Order hiding behind the illusory wall even though he had nothing to gain from helping them. He even comments about how he cannot shield them forever before letting vampire Durkon sent his fiend. I wont say he was a good person but it is obvious he cared about the Durkon that was in his own way.

[Yendor]

I believe there's a subtle semantic difference between "bring death and destruction for us all" and "bring death and destruction to us all". The first implies intent, but only the second suggests it definitely succeeded. Seems like just the sort of twist these things usually rely on.

[brian 333]

I'm thinking Hel's plan qualifies as fulfilling the exact wording of the prophdcy.

[Shatteredtower]

That. Hurt.

Thank you, Giant. Needed that today.

[deuterio12]

Nale and Sabine don't seem to have much of a relationship outside of banging. That's not a comment regarding the morality of those happily banging away, but enjoying an activity together doesn't imply love. Remember that Sabine happily had sex with several denizens of the lower planes, to the surprise of Nale. Clearly these two aren't doing too good at communication, and their relationship might only be working because of blood sacrifice.

Sabine cares enough about Nale that not only she keep coming back for him and supporting the secondary villain despite his constant failures, she also was seriously pissed off after he was killed to the point she started to actually help V against her own bosses.

That's the difference, Sabine may bang others in a fancy, but Nale was the one she kept returning to and sharing adventures with at the end of the day.

[M.A.D]

I'm thinking the young priestess who raised Sigdi's friends back then eventually became the current High Priestess of Thor, anyone with me?

[eilandesq]

I'm thinking the young priestess who raised Sigdi's friends back then eventually became the current High Priestess of Thor, anyone with me?

Given that she was at least ninth level (and possibly higher, if she was casting all of those Raise Dead spells without assistance) almost sixty years ago, it's a pretty decent guess.

[brian 333]

Given that she was at least ninth level (and possibly higher, if she was casting all of those Raise Dead spells without assistance) almost sixty years ago, it's a pretty decent guess.

I'll have to look again. I thought there were at least two priests involved.

[Angel Bob]

This is the first update in a while to surprise me - with Minrah's death. I knew it was a possibility, but I wasn't expecting her to die so ignominiously. She hasn't just been killed, she's been Kilkil'd: come and gone without doing anything of note. Quite a sad, senseless death, in the end...

[Yendor]

Uh, no. The current high priestess of Thor doesn't look anything like the priestess here. There's a cleric here who does look like the high priestess.

[Flying Turtle]

Spoiler

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I think the key point is that the "evil" races are disadvantaged, not malicious. They have compassion and care about each other. The whole point of this scene is that this monster DOESN'T understand compassion, because unlike the genuinely disenfranchised goblinfolk Durkula is just a bastard.

Besides this: while Rich's themes very frequently deal with redemption of evil, one of the central points is that evil is DIFFICULT to redeem.

It took hundreds and hundreds of strips AND an outright curse for Belkar, a mortal who travels in the company of good creatures, to learn the virtue of compassion. It took V causing actual genocide and being rejected by the people he loved to overcome his arrogance. And then there's Elan's father--a man whom even the idealistic Elan acknowledges is so intractably corrupt that the idea of him reforming is enough to break him from an otherwise flawless masterclass illusion. That's the author saying that evil people don't become good overnight. It takes more than a willing teacher and a well-chosen lesson to redeem a monster.

Durkon's a compassionate and idealistic soul, but--much more so than Elan--he's not dumb. Standing on the edge of oblivion, he won't preach compassion to a monster that only moments before carelessly threatened an infant in the pursuit of its amoral goal. There's no arc that would cause this thing, which has thus far been entirely alien, vile, and predatory, to suddenly grow a conscience. That's something that's been given to every other evil character redeemed thus far.

Spoiler

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I don't actually think Durkula is a incapable of understanding compassion. Partially because Roy pointed out that vampires are free willed intelligent creatures capable of changing but also because of this quote from the Giant from the 'Orcs are people, too!' thread.

"There are no fantasy worlds. There are no orcs. They don't exist. All that exists is a bunch of humans writing stories to each other about how cool it would be if we could finally let loose and stab some folks that looked different without having to worry about boring stuff like their inalienable rights. I happen to think that maybe we should be a bit better than that.

If nothing else, it would increase the overall quality of the genre's storytelling if every antagonist needed to actually have a reason for deserving death."

Rich seems to have a very real issue with races and characters that can be killed freely. So I have a hard time believing that he would write vampires as monsters incapable compassion. That smacks too much of creating an easy target that you can kill guilt free.

On the matter of evil people not becoming good over night I'm actually in complete agreement. I am not expecting Durkula to suddenly become good. I expecting something along the lines of a moment of hesitation as he tries to reconcile Sigdi actions with his own outlook. Just enough for Scruffy, a possum playing Roy, or maybe even Kudzu to do something to mess things up. A real change of heart, like you said, will take a lot of time and a long arc. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if the series ends without resolving said character arc. Perhaps in the end Durkula will do exactly what Roy suggested and tell Hel to go to her self so he can wander Tarturus and find himself. Not a real change of heart but the beginnings of one. And one that may not even come to fruition. I have a hard time reconciling Durkula as a irredeemable monster with both the words of Rich and the words of Roy.

Also stepping out of the meta-narrative, out of universe speculation. Durkula seems genuinely shook by what Durkon just showed him. He's not enjoying his victory like his subordinates. He's just staring. And in his head he's spouting questions. Not at Durkon, just to himself. As Durkon watches with no visible reaction, just "..." . It's almost like this was his plan.
And even putting all that I aside, I can't think of any other angle Durkon might be working with this story. It certainly doesn't seem to be misleading. But maybe that's just wishful thinking.

[Kish]

Unfortunately, from things he's said I suspect Rich makes an exception for "unnatural" creatures. Not as far as "they have to be inherently evil," but at least as far as "I don't mind if I'm portraying them as inherently evil."

[skaddix]

This is the first update in a while to surprise me - with Minrah's death. I knew it was a possibility, but I wasn't expecting her to die so ignominiously. She hasn't just been killed, she's been Kilkil'd: come and gone without doing anything of note. Quite a sad, senseless death, in the end...

Eh Durkon hasn't killed all the clerics yet so she still has a chance.

Interesting Memory so it seems Durkon must provide the Memories but doesn't have to provide context.

[Coolio Wolfus]

What if durkon/greg's father was the troll and had regeneration, that would mean he wasn't a dwarf but that he may still be alive.

The mining gas leak may have been them searching for bodies in the previous scuffle.

Remember the tale told of the troll and sappers was officially a variation of the truth, it even states so just before the retelling hence the crayon recall of events.

The recent troll/father/injury quote from Sigdi is enough to spot the mention of troll and father in the same sentence...