Would You Be My New Best Friends? (Doctor Who redux)

[The New Bruceski]

I'm just happy that Tim Shaw is even listed in the credits as Tim Shaw.

[Darth Ultron]

Spoiler: No, that part

Show

Did you watch the story to the end? Because she gets turned into an immortal water demi god and gets to live out eternity with her girl friend.....

Hmm, River Song?

Um....River is a Bad Girl.....

There seems no point trying to honestly persuade you when you're arguing with an invented boogeyman who may do too much or too little of something in the future.

Well, maybe you don't have to ''persuade"? Why must every conversation be ''I say something", ''You persuade me" and "I follow and do exactly what you think?" How about we just discuss and post?

Writing that all out makes me realize just how badly Bill got put through the wringer compared to every other Companion of NuWho. I think the only competitor is Rory for continually getting time-screwed.

Guess it is a good thing she...gets turned into an immortal water demi god and gets to live out eternity with her girl friend.....for a super happy ending.

[LeSwordfish]

Well, maybe you don't have to ''persuade"? Why must every conversation be ''I say something", ''You persuade me" and "I follow and do exactly what you think?" How about we just discuss and post?.

Because I think you're wrong (to say the least). And wrong about some quite important things: you're (in multiple threads) authoritatively presenting a picture of some powerful "them" controlling culture to nefarious ends - a picturr that you've pulled entirely from misinformed stereotypes and conspiracy theories. I'm trying to explain why, in order that you can understand my point better.

[factotum]

Did you watch the story to the end? Because she gets turned into an immortal water demi god and gets to live out eternity with her girl friend.....

And that makes all the horrible stuff that happens to her before then A-OK, I suppose? Just because she had a somewhat happy ending doesn't mean that she didn't have some really horrid times leading up to that, and since your main argument seems to be that they might not do horrible things to Jodie's Doctor because she iz a gurl, I'd say it's a pretty good counterpoint to that.

[Darth Ultron]

Because I think you're wrong (to say the least). And wrong about some quite important things: you're (in multiple threads) authoritatively presenting a picture of some powerful "them" controlling culture to nefarious ends - a picturr that you've pulled entirely from misinformed stereotypes and conspiracy theories. I'm trying to explain why, in order that you can understand my point better.

Oh, ok, well see that makes sense. Now, first off there is no ''conspiracy".

Now it is a select group of people that grew up and are still deep in a very set world. Sure they come from all over with diverse backgrounds....and somehow...just all agree and think the same exact way. But that does not really matter, as it only matters as they do think the One Way.

I know it is ''fun" to think things random just ''happen", but that is just not how things happen.

And that makes all the horrible stuff that happens to her before then A-OK,

Well....yes? A happy ending is a happy ending.

[Serenity]

Oh, ok, well see that makes sense. Now, first off there is no ''conspiracy".

Now it is a select group of people that grew up and are still deep in a very set world. Sure they come from all over with diverse backgrounds....and somehow...just all agree and think the same exact way. But that does not really matter, as it only matters as they do think the One Way.

I know it is ''fun" to think things random just ''happen", but that is just not how things happen.



Well....yes? A happy ending is a happy ending.

"It's not a conspiracy, that makes me sound crazy. It's this much longer-winded set of words that obfuscates the fact that I'm still basically saying 'conspiracy'."

And if a happy ending is a happy ending, what's there to worry about them not doing with/to the Doctor? The Doctor always wins in the end and goes off for more adventures, if occasionally in a new body. If the Doctor doesn't ultimately have a happy ending, there ceases to be a show, after all.

[Psyren]

It's a touchy subject.

This non-answer confuses me. So you admit that you are talking about some invented boogey(wo)man you have yet to evidence then?

There seems no point trying to honestly persuade you when you're arguing with an invented boogeyman who may do too much or too little of something in the future.

Yeah, that.

Because I think you're wrong (to say the least). And wrong about some quite important things: you're (in multiple threads) authoritatively presenting a picture of some powerful "them" controlling culture to nefarious ends - a picture that you've pulled entirely from misinformed stereotypes and conspiracy theories. I'm trying to explain why, in order that you can understand my point better.

Also that.

[Darth Ultron]

And if a happy ending is a happy ending, what's there to worry about them not doing with/to the Doctor?

Well, there might not be a happy ending, and they could ruin the Doctor for the near future. Make it endless ''way" shows, or even get it cancelled.

This non-answer confuses me. So you admit that you are talking about some invented boogey(wo)man you have yet to evidence then?

Not sure what more you want said?

[Psyren]

Not sure what more you want said?

Admission received, thanks.

[Darth Ultron]

Admission received, thanks.

No problem, you are more then welcome.

[Serenity]

Well, there might not be a happy ending, and they could ruin the Doctor for the near future. Make it endless ''way" shows, or even get it cancelled.

1) That's not the argument you were making.
2) Even if it were, there's no particular reason to think it would be the case.
3) But seriously, that's a completely new avenue of argument. Up to now, you've been ever so concerned that they would never let the least inconvenience happen to a female Doctor.

[Lord Vukodlak]

Lets just hope it was a baddy written bit, but a poor writer trying to cram all the characters into the episode.....and not the start of a silly ''we can't show alien monsters threaten the Lady Doctor'' thing.

The writers didn't know a female doctor had been cast until after they'd turned in all the drafts for S11. So they didn't know when the wrote the episode it would be a female doctor. Which is why the doctor now being female takes up about three lines of dialog.

[Androgeus]

Which is why the doctor now being female takes up about three lines of dialog.

I’d hope Chibnall, who had a female Doctor as a condition of his hiring, knew he was going to cast a female Doctor.

[LeSwordfish]

Now, first off there is no ''conspiracy".

Now it is a select group of people that grew up and are still deep in a very set world. Sure they come from all over with diverse backgrounds....and somehow...just all agree and think the same exact way. But that does not really matter, as it only matters as they do think the One Way.

I know it is ''fun" to think things random just ''happen", but that is just not how things happen.

There's no conspiracy - but nothing's a coincidence! Things don't just "happen!" All of these people from all over the place are thinking and acting the same way, and working together to bring their One Way around! By casting women in things! And thinking about the social contexts surrounding those female characters! And maybe they'll show a girl who is good at maths!

[Aotrs Commander]

The writers didn't know a female doctor had been cast until after they'd turned in all the drafts for S11. So they didn't know when the wrote the episode it would be a female doctor. Which is why the doctor now being female takes up about three lines of dialog.

Which was a good way to go about it (kind of clever, even), because it kind of ensures that, for this season at least, the casting is largely immaterial (i.e. about as much effect as Capaldi being Scottish). I wonder if that's normal or whether this was specially considered for this instance.

[Psyren]

There's no conspiracy - but nothing's a coincidence! Things don't just "happen!" All of these people from all over the place are thinking and acting the same way, and working together to bring their One Way around! By casting women in things! And thinking about the social contexts surrounding those female characters! And maybe they'll show a girl who is good at maths!

We are through the looking glass, sheeple.

[Darth Ultron]

1) That's not the argument you were making.

I know what I'm making...maybe you don't.

2) Even if it were, there's no particular reason to think it would be the case.

See history.

3) But seriously, that's a completely new avenue of argument. Up to now, you've been ever so concerned that they would never let the least inconvenience happen to a female Doctor.

Do you mean up until when suddenly someone asked me a question about what could be so bad?

[Psyren]

See history.

You mean we had a female Doctor before and this happened? What season was that again?

[Rodin]

If we're talking history, pretty much every Companion ever has had a happy ending. I was curious, so I did a bit of a Wikipedia search - apparently, a grand total of two have been killed off on the TV series?

Katarina: Gets taken hostage by a nutter who wants the Doctor to take them to a planet controlled by Daleks. To prevent this, she deliberately spaces both herself and her captor, killing both of them. Ouch.

Adric: Tries to steer a spaceship that is going to crash into the Earth out of the way. Dies when the Cyberman blows up the computer, freighter crashes into the Earth anyway but fortunately only wipes out the dinosaurs.

Oh, and I guess Clara is technically under a death sentence, if that counts for anything.

Now, there's a few who just sort of wandered off and we don't hear from them again. For the vast majority though, they found something other than time travel to occupy them. Mostly falling in love, though a couple found people that need them more than the Doctor.

So if the fear is "modern Doctor Who isn't going to be rough on its characters, because women, and the proof is in Bill getting a happy ending", I have to ask where you've been for the past 50 years.

[Serenity]

Do you mean up until when suddenly someone asked me a question about what could be so bad?

You: A female Doctor could be bad because the writers might treat her with kid gloves because of feminism!
Others: The last female companion was put through incredibly traumatic experiences and a psychological wringer.
You: Doesn't count, since she came out of it happy.
Me: But the Doctor definitionally always has happy endings, so by that logic, the writers have always treated the Doctor with kid gloves.
You: But this time they might *not* give the Doctor a happy ending, because the show might suck?

If there's a gap in my understanding of the conversation so far here, please elaborate, because from where I'm standing, that looks like a total non sequitur.

[jwhouk]

Oh good GOD. It's only been ONE EPISODE.

This sort of speculation would have sunk Ecclestone after "Rose".

[Lord Vukodlak]

If we're talking history, pretty much every Companion ever has had a happy ending. I was curious, so I did a bit of a Wikipedia search - apparently, a grand total of two have been killed off on the TV series?

Katarina: Gets taken hostage by a nutter who wants the Doctor to take them to a planet controlled by Daleks. To prevent this, she deliberately spaces both herself and her captor, killing both of them. Ouch.

Adric: Tries to steer a spaceship that is going to crash into the Earth out of the way. Dies when the Cyberman blows up the computer, freighter crashes into the Earth anyway but fortunately only wipes out the dinosaurs.

Oh, and I guess Clara is technically under a death sentence, if that counts for anything.

Now, there's a few who just sort of wandered off and we don't hear from them again. For the vast majority though, they found something other than time travel to occupy them. Mostly falling in love, though a couple found people that need them more than the Doctor.

So if the fear is "modern Doctor Who isn't going to be rough on its characters, because women, and the proof is in Bill getting a happy ending", I have to ask where you've been for the past 50 years.

Donna Noble, She had all her adventure for the doctor erased from her mind.
And the one shot companions they have a really high death rate.
Oh and let’s not forget they killed the woman in the first episode of season 11

[Darth Ultron]

You: A female Doctor could be bad because the writers might treat her with kid gloves because of feminism!
Others: The last female companion was put through incredibly traumatic experiences and a psychological wringer.
You: Doesn't count, since she came out of it happy.
Me: But the Doctor definitionally always has happy endings, so by that logic, the writers have always treated the Doctor with kid gloves.
You: But this time they might *not* give the Doctor a happy ending, because the show might suck?

If there's a gap in my understanding of the conversation so far here, please elaborate, because from where I'm standing, that looks like a total non sequitur.

Right, more like:

Me: A female Doctor could be bad because ect

Others: A female companion had experiences.

Me: Right, and she had a super happy ending, and that was a companion, not the Doctor.

Others: Doctor Who is all about happy endings?

Me: Maybe over all sure? But that still won't change what I said. If they decide it is wrong to do ''x" just because of a Lady Doctor, it will make a for a bad show.

[Serenity]

Right, more like:

Me: A female Doctor could be bad because ect

Others: A female companion had experiences.

Me: Right, and she had a super happy ending, and that was a companion, not the Doctor.

Others: Doctor Who is all about happy endings?

Me: Maybe over all sure? But that still won't change what I said. If they decide it is wrong to do ''x" just because of a Lady Doctor, it will make a for a bad show.

Again, you've presented no evidence to suggest that they *would* decide it was wrong, and your avenue of rebutting evidence that fairly firmly suggests they would not directly undermines the premise that such a decision would be bad in the first place. If a happy ending negates any suffering experienced along the way, than no Doctor has ever been put through what you fear they'll be reluctant to put the female Doctor through.

[Darth Ultron]

Again, you've presented no evidence to suggest that they *would* decide it was wrong, and your avenue of rebutting evidence that fairly firmly suggests they would not directly undermines the premise that such a decision would be bad in the first place.

I'm not sure what ''evidence" you want for a future event?

I say if follow the one way of thinking about female characters they will ruin the show. And you want ''evidence" of them doing it...but it has not happened yet?

[Rodin]

Donna Noble, She had all her adventure for the doctor erased from her mind.
And the one shot companions they have a really high death rate.
Oh and let’s not forget they killed the woman in the first episode of season 11

To me, one-shot companions don't really count. Even if they hang around for a full serial, they aren't major characters who spend a significant amount of time with the Doctor.

On Donna, I did consider her. However, look at how her life ended up - she winds up getting married (to someone who genuinely loves her this time) and the Doctor gives her a winning lottery ticket. She may have lost her memories of the Doctor, but she survives otherwise unscathed and ends up rich and in love. That's pretty happy.

Having your memories erased also seems to be an occupational hazard of hanging out with the Doctor - I found it happening to several different companions.

Oh, and this made me laugh:

During the filming of The Mind Robber, Frazer Hines contracted chickenpox and was replaced for part of the serial by Hamish Wilson. This was written in as part of the story when Jamie is turned into a cardboard cut-out and has his face removed by the Master of the Land of Fiction. The Doctor's first attempt to reconstruct his face is unsuccessful. Eventually Jamie's real face is restored when Hines recovered.

[LeSwordfish]

I'm not sure what ''evidence" you want for a future event?

Wait hold up you don't have magical future-vision? All this time you've just been confidently announcing that things will happen, based on nothing?

[Fyraltari]

Um....River is a Bad Girl.....

She really is not.

Oh good GOD. It's only been ONE EPISODE.

This sort of speculation would have sunk Ecclestone after "Rose".

This started as soon as Whitaker was announced as the Doctor. Hopefully, it is dying down by now.

If we're talking history, pretty much every Companion ever has had a happy ending. I was curious, so I did a bit of a Wikipedia search - apparently, a grand total of two have been killed off on the TV series?

Katarina: Gets taken hostage by a nutter who wants the Doctor to take them to a planet controlled by Daleks. To prevent this, she deliberately spaces both herself and her captor, killing both of them. Ouch.

This was probably accidental. Poor girl thought she had died during the sack of Troy by Agammemnon & Co and the Doctor was a god taking her to the Underworld.
Also from the same episode: Sarah Kingdom shoots her own brother dead thinking he was a traitor and then learns that it was the one who gave her that order, her beloved mentor, who was the traitor. She dies uselessly carrying the Time Destructor who ages her to death.

Adric: Tries to steer a spaceship that is going to crash into the Earth out of the way. Dies when the Cyberman blows up the computer, freighter crashes into the Earth anyway but fortunately only wipes out the dinosaurs.

Worse than that, Adric had already sent the freighter moving back in time when the Cyberman shot the computer and he could have escaped with everybody else. But he did not know that and died thinking he failed to save anyone, while holding his dead brother's rope-belt. The Doctor then takes out the last remaining Cyberman using Adric's golden Mathematical Excellence badge and can only watch him die helplessly. Roll credits without sound over a stillshot of Adric's broken badge. Talk about a gut punch.

Oh, and I guess Clara is technically under a death sentence, if that counts for anything.

Now, there's a few who just sort of wandered off and we don't hear from them again. For the vast majority though, they found something other than time travel to occupy them. Mostly falling in love, though a couple found people that need them more than the Doctor.

Victoria left because travelling with the doctor scar(r)ed her so much she went from normal, brave girl to nervous wreck. Zoey got all her memories of travelling with the Doctor erased too (don't worry she remmebers the Cybermen attacking her home, though!), same for longest running-companion-candidate Jamie McCrimon, by-the-way. Liz quitted because the Doctor was just too much of an arse. Nyssa had her father murdered by the Master who went on to wear his corpse for the rest of the Classic show. And then got to watch as her home planet and everything and everyone on it was destroyed by accident. Tegan had her mind invaded by the Mara which was treated like a rape, complete with the lasting trauma.

That's only taking the main characters into account. What about that woman who gets gang-raped (mercifully off-screen) by vikings scouts in the Time Meddler or the underage prostitutes who get Jack-the-Rippered in the Talons of Weng-Chiang?

Doctor Who has never been particularly soft on the women. Just ask Barbara.

So if the fear is "modern Doctor Who isn't going to be rough on its characters, because women, and the proof is in Bill getting a happy ending", I have to ask where you've been for the past 50 years.

Exactly.

Right, more like:

Me: A female Doctor could be bad because ect

Others: A female companion had experiences.

Me: Right, and she had a super happy ending, and that was a companion, not the Doctor.

Others: Doctor Who is all about happy endings?

Me: Maybe over all sure? But that still won't change what I said. If they decide it is wrong to do ''x" just because of a Lady Doctor, it will make a for a bad show.

This is really not how this conversation went. You have yet to provide any reason why a "Lady Doctor" could be a bad thing.

[Serenity]

I'm not sure what ''evidence" you want for a future event?

I say if follow the one way of thinking about female characters they will ruin the show. And you want ''evidence" of them doing it...but it has not happened yet?

A pattern of female characters being jarringly insulated from Bad Things in the show's history would be appropriate, for example. (Of which the opposite has fairly conclusively been demonstrated.) Maybe examples from the episode we actually have, the one meant to set the tone for Whittaker's run? (Where consensus, of course, is that aside from literally one line, Whittaker could have been any Doctor.) Or, you know, literally any basis for your claims besides your personal animosity to (your imagined version of) feminism, because that's generally required for reasoned debate.

[factotum]

OK, just saw episode 2. I wasn't that impressed with it--it felt like Chris Chibnall was trying to shoehorn "sciencey" bits in, it being an SF show, but he really isn't very good at it.

Spoiler

Show

There was the perfect Prometheus moment where the group ran straight in front of a crashing spaceship without running up the short bank to the side and getting out of the way. They said at least twice that the atmosphere of the planet was toxic, which made it pretty amazing that nobody had any problem breathing it for a day or more. The "acetylene fields" were an absolute joke--first off, acetylene being lighter than air doesn't mean it settles into a layer 3 feet off the ground, it disappears off into the distance; if they *had* somehow ignited such a layer of acetylene immediately above them, it would have blown more than their socks off; and carbon dioxide is heavier than air, so it would fall out of that flaming layer and suffocate the people lying underneath it in short order.

Then there was no reason for Epzo to change his mind as massively as he did at the end and no reason for Ilin to kow-tow to his threats. As for the new TARDIS interior--I hated it. It looked gloomy, and I still don't understand why the TARDIS can completely re-build its interior but still has to use controls on the console that look like they came from a skip sometime around 1953.