3.5e vs 5e

[GoblinGuy]

Which is better? What is it better for?

[DeTess]

They are both very different. If you enjoy the character creation mini game, lots of character customization and many different subsystems, 3.5e is the system for you.

If you like a simpler system thats easier to teach to people new to rpg's, and that's (arguably) easier to balance, 5e is more your thing.

[CharonsHelper]

Neither is "better". They hit different points.

3.5e (or PF for a slightly better version IMO) are much crunchier and are fun if you enjoy the character building mini-game.

5e is more streamlined, with simpler characters and getting rid of lots of crunch by replacing it with GM discretion (or 'GM may I').

3.5/PF starts to break down past level 8-10ish (especially martial/caster issues), while 5e has a more shallow progression to make it work reasonably well for all 20 levels.

As above - neither is "better". It's a matter of taste.

[Psyren]

The better one will usually be the subforum you ask this question in

[Rhedyn]

*Totally not bias assessment

If you can't be bothered to learn most of rules or follow the rules you do know, then 5e is hands down better.

If you want a system that has rules in place before you start house-ruling, then 3.5 is better.

[OgresAreCute]

*Totally not bias assessment

If you can't be bothered to learn most of rules or follow the rules you do know, then 5e is hands down better.

If you want a system that has rules in place before you start house-ruling, then 3.5 is better.

In addition to this, 3.5e is better if you don't want to be exasperated at your lack of options after like 2-3 characters.

[Troacctid]

5e is easier to learn and easier to find a group for. It also has better game balance and organized play support. Thus, it is better. QED.

[OgresAreCute]

5e is easier to learn and easier to find a group for. It also has better game balance and organized play support. Thus, it is better. QED.

I felt a great disturbance in the Playground, as if millions of grognards suddenly cried out.

[Psyren]

5e is easier to learn and easier to find a group for. It also has better game balance and organized play support. Thus, it is better. QED.

It's only better if those are your main (or only) criteria for ranking one system vs. another. This thread has listed several others that can be prioritized more highly, like build variety.

[Troacctid]

It's only better if those are your main (or only) criteria for ranking one system vs. another. This thread has listed several others that can be prioritized more highly, like build variety.

That's true buuut they are also the best criteria soooooo...

[Rhedyn]

5e is easier to learn and easier to find a group for. It also has better game balance and organized play support. Thus, it is better. QED.

Well I disagree that it is better balanced. In 3.X you can counter broken with more broken. In 5e you counter "something that seems less broken" with houserules. If you are a DM that refuses to completely fabricate rules to counter player abilities, then 5e is an unmanageable mess of a game by level 7.

[Psyren]

That's true buuut they are also the best criteria soooooo...

Uh-huh. Moving on...

[ColorBlindNinja]

Question? Can you make melee characters in 5e that are as effective as the Tome of Battle classes in 3.5?

[DeTess]

Well I disagree that it is better balanced. In 3.X you can counter broken with more broken. In 5e you counter "something that seems less broken" with houserules. If you are a DM that refuses to completely fabricate rules to counter player abilities, then 5e is an unmanageable mess of a game by level 7.

Can you provide an example, apart from the coffeelock, which is of questionable raw validity at best?

Ninja, can you define effectivity? 5e has nothing like ToB in terms of versatility in combat tricks (though battlemaster fighter and paladin are not that far off), but all melee classes contribute meaningfully to a fight, even in the pressence of full casters.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Can you provide an example, apart from the coffeelock, which is of questionable raw validity at best?

I've heard that animating an army of skeletons breaks 5e wide open.

[DeTess]

I've heard that animating an army of skeletons breaks 5e wide open.

Animate dead is capped by your amount of spell slots(you need to recast the spell to maintain control), and the same is true for 3.5e.

[Particle_Man]

Question? Can you make melee characters in 5e that are as effective as the Tome of Battle classes in 3.5?

Well, remember that the monsters are differently statted in 5e and 3.5 too. So the question would be "effective at what?" 5e fighters can kill monsters. They usually cannot short-range teleport, fly, or create area attacks.

[DeTess]

Well, remember that the monsters are differently statted in 5e and 3.5 too. So the question would be "effective at what?" 5e fighters can kill monsters. They usually cannot short-range teleport, fly, or create area attacks.

Monk can do the first and the third depending on the chosen archetype though.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Animate dead is capped by your amount of spell slots(you need to recast the spell to maintain control), and the same is true for 3.5e.

What? In 3.5, there's just a limit to how many undead you can create and control with Animate Dead, there are plenty of ways to break that limitation.

Well, remember that the monsters are differently statted in 5e and 3.5 too. So the question would be "effective at what?" 5e fighters can kill monsters. They usually cannot short-range teleport, fly, or create area attacks.

So, that would be a "no".

[Troacctid]

So, that would be a "no".

If the question is "Can you make one?" then the answer is "Yes."

[DeTess]

What? In 3.5, there's just a limit to how many undead you can create and control with Animate Dead, there are plenty of ways to break that limitation.

By that I meant to say that you can break things in 3.5e with minionmancy as well, and in most cases far worse than in 5e.

Regarding ToB, there is nothing like it in 5e, but if I had to choose between being a warblade in an optmized 3.5 full caster party, or a fighter in an optimized 5e full caster party, I'd pick the 5e option, as relatively speaking the power gap is smaller.

Just fyi, I'm not arguing 5e is superior to 3.5, but in my experience balance between pc's is far less of a worry in 5e than in 3.5. Wether that's because 5e as a whole is more balanced, or because 3.5 gives you far more tools just depends on how you look at it

[ColorBlindNinja]

If the question is "Can you make one?" then the answer is "Yes."

How would you do that?

EDIT: And how would that build compare to a Warblade or a Swordsage?

By that I meant to say that you can break things in 3.5e with minionmancy as well, and in most cases far worse than in 5e.

Well, in that case, you didn't make that clear at all.

Most minionmancy won't break 3.5 unless it involves abusing Wish.

Regarding ToB, there is nothing like it in 5e

Duly noted.

[DeTess]

EDIT: And how would that build compare to a Warblade or a Swordsage?

You can actually build a monk to be similar to swordsage.

Edit: by that I mean you can make a monk do similar things (shadow monk is somewhat similar to a shadow hand swordsage, for example). The resource management is obviously very different.

Most minionmancy won't break 3.5 unless it involves abusing Wish.

But a horde of skeletons does apparently break 5e?

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ypu can actually build a monk to be similar to swordsage.

Similar how?

EDIT:

Edit: by that I mean you can make a monk do similar things (shadow monk is somewhat similar to a shadow hand swordsage, for example). The resource management is obviously very different.

Can you go into more details?

But a horde of skeletons does apparently break 5e?

That's what I heard. Apparently, bounded accuracy allows skeletons with bows to gang up on monsters and kill them.

[Troacctid]

How would you do that?

EDIT: And how would that build compare to a Warblade or a Swordsage?

For Warblade, you can hit that level of effectiveness easily enough as a Battlemaster, possibly multiclassing as a Swashbuckler if you want the feel of powerful single strikes. For Swordsage, Shadowdancer and Arcane Trickster are good options.

[DeTess]

Similar how?



That's what I heard. Apparently, bounded accuracy allows skeletons with bows to gang up on monsters and kill them.

1. You'll have to read the rules to understand, but shadow monk is similar to the basic fantasy if a shadow hand initiatior, for example. Resource mechanic is completely different of course, but shadow monks get a limited teleport and other sneaky stuff.

2. That works about as well as the crit fishing peasants against the terrasque in 3.5. Against most big threats you'd be rolling the same odds as well (skeletons have +4 to hit, while stuff like dragons have around 23 AC).

[Particle_Man]

3.5 late books (Tome of Battle, Magic of Incarnum, etc.) had some pretty neat stuff that 5e hasn't put out equivalents for yet, simply because 5e is still fairly new. That said, you can sometimes reskin a 5e class to be kinda like a 3.5 idea.

So for example I really like the Sapphire Hierarch prestige class in Magic of Incarnum, but 5e hasn't dipped into that well yet.

But I could do a 5e cleric of order or knowledge, for example, that could have a Hermit background, and cover a lot of that ground, fluff-wise.

But as I said in the identical thread in the other forum, both 3.5e and 5e are better. 3.5e is better at 3.5e stuff and 5e is better at 5e stuff.

[ColorBlindNinja]

1. You'll have to read the rules to understand, but shadow monk is similar to the basic fantasy if a shadow hand initiatior, for example. Resource mechanic is completely different of course, but shadow monks get a limited teleport and other sneaky stuff.

So, it can teleport. Swordsages can do a lot more than that. Can 5e Monks make high DC saves? Bypass DR & Hardness? Deal a lot of damage with one attack?

2. That works about as well as the crit fishing peasants against the terrasque in 3.5.

I'm not familiar with this one. Link?

Against most big threats you'd be rolling the same odds as well (skeletons have +4 to hit, while stuff like dragons have around 23 AC).

So, they hit on a 19 or higher. Whereas in 3.5, they could only hit on a 20, and they'd never deal damage.

[Troacctid]

That's what I heard. Apparently, bounded accuracy allows skeletons with bows to gang up on monsters and kill them.

It's powerful to be sure, but it's not quite as powerful as it looks, because it's very hard to protect that many skeletons from AoE effects (which are pretty common), and there are of course logistical questions that have to be answered. You're much more likely to see a smaller squad of 4–6 skeletons providing additional action economy. I usually see animate objects and conjure animals more commonly in my games, since they're so quick to set up. Resistance/immunity to nonmagical weapon attacks is a real hurdle for these strategies though. You can get around it by conjuring animals like giant poisonous snakes that deal non-standard damage, or by collecting enough magic weapons to equip all your skeletons, or by being a Shepherd Druid, but it takes some investment.

So, it can teleport. Swordsages can do a lot more than that. Can 5e Monks make high DC saves? Bypass DR & Hardness? Deal a lot of damage with one attack?

1. They're the #2 best class for it, after Paladins.
2. It's 5e. What are DR and hardness? But also, yes.
3. I mean, technically yes? Not many attacks hit harder than Quivering Palm. But multiple attacks are actually more effective than a single attack in most situations. I guess you could multiclass as a Rogue?

[ColorBlindNinja]

It's powerful to be sure, but it's not quite as powerful as it looks, because it's very hard to protect that many skeletons from AoE effects (which are pretty common), and there are of course logistical questions that have to be answered. You're much more likely to see a smaller squad of 4–6 skeletons providing additional action economy. I usually see animate objects and conjure animals more commonly in my games, since they're so quick to set up. Resistance/immunity to nonmagical weapon attacks is a real hurdle for these strategies though. You can get around it by conjuring animals like giant poisonous snakes that deal non-standard damage, or by collecting enough magic weapons to equip all your skeletons, or by being a Shepherd Druid, but it takes some investment.

I see.

1. They're the #2 best class for it, after Paladins.
2. It's 5e. What are DR and hardness? But also, yes.
3. I mean, technically yes? Not many attacks hit harder than Quivering Palm. But multiple attacks are actually more effective than a single attack in most situations. I guess you could multiclass as a Rogue?

Thanks for the information.

Also, there's no hardness for objects in 5e?