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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    I am loving how active this thread is at the moment!

    Thankyou for your feedback BlueHairedKat!

    I have made a few changes to the class now and am feeling pretty good about it overall. I shuffled Unbreakable down to level 10 as I agree it came too late. That pushed Improved Psych Out back to 14, and it now functions similarly to Improved Hexblade's Curse. Mind over Matter goes up to 18, and I don't think it's out of place there as it is a powerful feature in its own right.

    I gave the class its 'Extra Attack' at level 5 - a PAM-type reaction where you can make an attack against an enemy that moves within 5 ft of you. It's called Riposte at the moment because I can't think of anything better, though I know there's a clash with the BM maneuver.

    Harlequin gets Vicious Mockery at 3, and Hypnotist gets Thaumaturgy - it was the most fitting cantrip I could think of for them.

    Mocking Strike now adds the Harlequin's Intelligence modifier to the next successful attack against the target. I'm still not really satisfied with this feature, I will probably adjust it again before the competition closes.

    I am about to make some breakfast and then I'll sit down and read through the other classes!

    Spoiler: Hero
    Show


    I still love this class. There are some minor formatting issues for me - the ASI heading is at the bottom of one column while the text is at the top of the next, and the text of the Divine Blessing feature is off the page. This might be because I'm using Chrome - not sure how GMBinder works.

    Divine Quest is a beautifully thematic feature. I can imagine lots of heroes using it to ask "Why me?" over and over.

    I am a little conflicted about Cross the Threshold too. It's just so different to any other class feature in 5e - almost like it does not meet our expectations. Heroics: Sacrifice is great. I'm not sure that Returned Hero needs to add your Charisma modifier to Heroic Fortitude on top of the other benefits, though.

    Divine Blessing really is two features in one, and I'm not sure you need both of them. It looks like you are trying to make it so that if the creature already has a vulnerability, you get to exploit it, and if it doesn't, you have a way to force it to anyway. I can see where you're coming from, and that it's more about luck/guidance influencing your strikes than just doing extra damage, but I'd be tempted to keep the fluff and just swap the mechanics to a reskinned Improved Divine Smite. The wording is a little confusing.

    Awakened Relic: woohoo! I love this, but think that they could probably be streamlined. Relic Weapon could upgrade to a +1 in addition to its benefits. Trinket does feel a bit underpowered. Maybe you can simply re-roll it, and choose which die to keep? Then get advantage, or a +Cha mod boost, to your next saving throw, to keep it in-line with the other relics? I think the Relic Focus is a bit weak too. It gets better if you remove the 'damage dealing' part - a 1st-level blasting spell at level 13 is hardly ever going to be worth it, but Find Familiar or Faerie Fire will be. Maybe gain a boost to your next cantrip damage as well?

    Apotheosis does seem really strong on paper, as does Fortune's Favoured. I guess I do have to remember that you're a d6 class that relies pretty heavily on your heroics dice. Might come back to these with suggestions for edits as I'm drawing a blank at the moment.

    Mighty Destiny: at this stage I'd like to point out that I love that you've tied the Hero's strong save to their choice of subclass. Really great idea. Feats of Strength is a good fluff/utility feature. Beacon of Courage is probably okay but could also be toned down to using your BA to make a check to beat the fear, or to let your ally use their reaction to re-attempt the save. I don't have much experience with fear so I don't know if it's really a strong enough condition to break that it needs to be scaled down. Capstone seems fine - haven't done the math but you should be doing a buttload of damage by now, which is good for a d6 martial.

    Cunning Destiny: still think Backup Plan is a good use of Heroics. The way I'm reading Combat Ploy is that you avoid the initial attack, deal some damage, but if the attacker still has movement left he can close the gap and try again. In that way of reading things, I don't think it's too overpowered. If it wastes the attacker's attack action, it probably is, as the movement is at-will, while the damage is tied to heroics dice. Evasive Tactics is fine, a nice twist on the rogue/ranger Evasion. Improved Heroics - you could probably re-word this to say that using Combat Ploy restores your reaction for the round. I might be biased but I like the idea of granting extra reactions... :)

    Can't wait to see the Mystic Destiny!

    In terms of theme, I think this class hits the mark for not meeting expectations. A d6 hit die, a versatile base class that can take 3 very different directions, the unique nature of some of the features (particularly Cross the Threshold). If not mechanically, then thematically, the Hero themself is doing the opposite of what was expected of them, as a lowly farmer's son/boring noble's daughter/wild child from the woods is shedding off their history to become something much greater. A cliche, sure - that's the point of the whole archetypal journey, but still fitting, I think.




    Spoiler: Deadeye
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    Woohoo, a class table! This just makes thing much quicker to digest, and the progression easier to follow. I can see now that Called Shots sort of take the spot of spell levels for a half-caster, and I like that a lot. It does seem a little odd to get your 4th Extra Attack-analogue as well on top of the ability to insta-kill at level 20. On that note, I still don't really understand the mechanical difference between Improved Accuracy and Extra Attack. Sorry, maybe I am just a little slow.

    Thankyou for dropping in the descriptions for Called Shots! I love the extra effects here, Wing Shot in particular - I'm not really sure how to justify Gag Shot working in real life, but I like it as an anti-caster mechanic.

    I am still a little worried about the Walking Arsenal gaining access to 4 8d8 Lightning Bolt analogues at 3rd level.

    I do think the class has come together nicely, and all three subclasses would be fun to play. Good stuff 8-)

    Thematically, using Int for attacks, guns in DnD, and some of the more modern/camo abilities set it apart from any other class enough for it to not meet my expectations. Ticked that box!



    Spoiler: Deathwalker/Emissary of Zihnn
    Show


    Class Table does seem like a lot of features for a fullcaster, but then we already have the Bard. A d8 hit dice, and shields, and Unarmoured Defense, and an incentive to stack Con will probably make this the tankiest fullcaster as well. I have always been hesitant of casting from Con as it makes for a very SAD caster. Let's take a closer look before I judge anything though!

    I like the descriptions of your spellcasting focus. You could probably name this as a 'necromantic focus' or something similar to keep the pattern with arcane focus, holy symbol etc.

    Blood Magic is awesome. The hit points seem appropriate to spell level to me.

    I too like the potential for minionmancy with Toll the Bell. The wording could probably still be cleaned up to make it read easier. I do feel like this is a lot of work for the DM, to find the base creature's statistics, and then apply the template, for up to 6 different creatures per long rest. To me, the ghost template seems much, much stronger than the other two as well.

    Spell list seems extensive and thematic, about right for a full caster. Look forward to seeing more!





    Spoiler: Whitescourge
    Show


    Love the fluff at the start. Really helps to get a sense of the class before you dive into the mechanics. Definitely twists the 'holy warrior' archetype on its head, fits the contest well!

    Proficiencies, hit die, skills, all look good. Class Table makes this look like a spontaneous 3rd caster? Interesting!

    Snippets of Power: gives me the same hesitation that the Deathwalker does, as casting from Constitution, while definitely unique, gives spellcasters one main attribute to pump. If the Whitescourge is a gish, it's probably going to want a high Con anyway, so it's putting strength on strength. Thematically, cleric cantrips fit the fluff perfectly.

    Primal Resilience is early to gain resistance, and 9th is early to gain immunity, and 16th is a strange feature, but radiant is so rare a damage type for monsters to have that I can't even remember the last time it came up in a game. It's probably fine, and again, very thematic.

    Rebuke Unlife definitely needs to scale. I'd probably start it out as 1d10 or 2d6, and bump it up an additional 1d10 or 1d6 at cantrip levels.

    Spellcasting section should probably say max 4th level to match the class table? Not sure how you intended this to work.

    Vision of the Heartseer probably doesn't need to be rounded, and the wording could then be cleaned up a bit.

    Unquenchable Life is essentially DR6. I'd probably make it scale off either Strength or Con mod, just to encourage boosting that stat.

    Pulsing Form should probably be a reaction so you can only trigger it once per round.

    Restoration looks good for a capstone.

    I think there is a lot of Overlap between Burning Blade and Exalt Centers. One, you make your sword catch fire, the other, your fists. You could probably make this a two-subclass base class; one healer, one damage dealer. I did find the subclasses hard to read in their current form, so my opinion might change with later drafts.
    .
















    Last edited by pygmybatrider; 2018-10-12 at 08:30 PM.
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Whitescourge Feedback
    - Rebuke Unlife is very good for a low-level at-will, though it does only affect the undead. I'd tone the damage down and maybe give it cantrip scaling
    - To cast a spell I have to expend healing resources and take damage? Ouch. Guess I won't be casting Cure Wounds any time soon...
    - I would never use Flaring Strike; if I want to attack with Constitution, there are cantrips for that.
    - Exalt is very unclear on what features come at what level

    Overall: There's a solid class structure here, but I think you've failed to give several of your abilities, spellcasting especially, enough oomph to make up for the downsides, and it leaves the class rather underpowered.
    Fixed Rebuke Unlife, thanks. I added in Expedited Rejuvenation to help avoid the feeling of losing HD, which a normal character gets back so slowly, considering a good chunk of this class revolves around using HD, but I'm not sure if it makes the class too powerful. And I know Exalt is problematic, I'm trying to adapt it.

    Thanks for your feedback!
    Last edited by SunderedWorldDM; 2018-10-13 at 07:52 AM.
    See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...

    Hey, I have an extended signature now!

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    I am loving how active this thread is at the moment!
    [spoiler=Whitescourge]

    Love the fluff at the start. Really helps to get a sense of the class before you dive into the mechanics. Definitely twists the 'holy warrior' archetype on its head, fits the contest well!

    Proficiencies, hit die, skills, all look good. Class Table makes this look like a spontaneous 3rd caster? Interesting!

    Snippets of Power: gives me the same hesitation that the Deathwalker does, as casting from Constitution, while definitely unique, gives spellcasters one main attribute to pump. If the Whitescourge is a gish, it's probably going to want a high Con anyway, so it's putting strength on strength. Thematically, cleric cantrips fit the fluff perfectly.

    Primal Resilience is early to gain resistance, and 9th is early to gain immunity, and 16th is a strange feature, but radiant is so rare a damage type for monsters to have that I can't even remember the last time it came up in a game. It's probably fine, and again, very thematic.

    Rebuke Unlife definitely needs to scale. I'd probably start it out as 1d10 or 2d6, and bump it up an additional 1d10 or 1d6 at cantrip levels.

    Spellcasting section should probably say max 4th level to match the class table? Not sure how you intended this to work.

    Vision of the Heartseer probably doesn't need to be rounded, and the wording could then be cleaned up a bit.

    Unquenchable Life is essentially DR6. I'd probably make it scale off either Strength or Con mod, just to encourage boosting that stat.

    Pulsing Form should probably be a reaction so you can only trigger it once per round.

    Restoration looks good for a capstone.

    I think there is a lot of Overlap between Burning Blade and Exalt Centers. One, you make your sword catch fire, the other, your fists. You could probably make this a two-subclass base class; one healer, one damage dealer. I did find the subclasses hard to read in their current form, so my opinion might change with later drafts.
    Vision of the Heartseer, Pulsing Form, and Rebuke Unlife have all been fixed. Thanks!

    Unquenchable Life, I can see where you're coming from, but I don't want to make too much of the class so heavily dependent on the one score, so if a Whitescourge were to have a CON of 18 instead of 20 they wouldn't be left by the wayside (bit overenthusiastic, but the point stands). I think I'll keep it Proficiency.

    For Snippets of Power, is your concern that if you give the Whitescourge just one ability to focus on for survival, it'll be unbalanced? See, I recognize that, and what I'm trying to do is to make most abilities have some form of HP or healing cost so that it won't feel like the Whitescourge just has a crazy amount of health before making them nigh-unkillable at higher levels. If you can think of any specifics on how to reel it in, let me know!

    Spellcasting: I've added Expedited Rejuvenation. This ability lets the Whitescourge gain half hit dice at a short rest, and all on a long rest. Makes their spellcasting more effective, as well as the other HD-dependent abilities.

    You also said something about the 9th level cap. The wording is 'the level you wanted to cast the spell at'. So say I'm a 13th level Whitescourge and I want to cast Cure Wounds on my buddy. But my buddy's really hurt, and he needs a lot of healing. So I drop 7 HD while casting to cast it as a 7th level spell. The risk-reward is further balanced by that versatility- if a normal spellcaster were to use their one fourth-level slot, no more 4th level spells. But a Whitescourge can use 4th level spells 3-5 times in the upper levels.

    Thanks for the feedback! Keep it coming. I'll work on cleaning up the subclasses and fleshing out the class abilities.
    See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...

    Hey, I have an extended signature now!

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Okay, I have completed the base class features for the deathwalker/emissary of Zihnn class. You will probably recognize that altogether the class seems largely underpowered. That is because the class is a full casting class and I wanted to ensure that it would not become overpowered. I will be working on the subclass features and flavor descriptions later.

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    2) Mostly because this is a cool thing that only this class can do, and putting it on the table and giving it its own heading draws attention to that.
    4) Many flying creatures have a terrible run speed, often as low as 5 ft (owls and bats for example). While narratively it makes sense that they aren't flying under physical power anymore, as a player I would have an expectation that the ghost version of a flying animal would still be decent at flying.
    5) Buffs and debuffs are perfect minionmancer spell options. If the class feature to raise dead scales my hopes are only slightly lowered based on your response.
    2) Fair enough, I will make it its own feature and bump it to level 3. There was another feature I wanted to include at level 3, but I decided to remove it once I recognized how oddly complex it would work in game.
    4) Yes, I forgot about the slow walking speed of many flying creatures. I will just make the ghost's movement a static 30 ft., regardless of the creature's walking speed.
    5) Toll the Bell does not really get that much better over the levels. The only thing that really gets added to the feature later on is Parasitic Bond and some of the subclasses may get a level 17 feature which has an aura that effects the undead servants.
    -
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  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    I'm going to do my best to put my 2 cents in, but I'm not the greatest and homebrew and balance testing, so take anything I say with a grain of salt!

    MESMER
    -I can definitely see the rogue influences here, and while the classes are similar, you took this in a wildly different direction, so no need to worry there! I also like how most of your abilities are short and to the point, something I'm striving to do with the Whitescourge!
    -Quick Thinking: does the Intelligence modifier stack on top of the normal ability? For example, I have a +1 STR and +4 INT. I make an Athletics check with QT. Do I add a +4 or +5 due to my ability scores?
    -Social Savant: If it's only for Deception vs. Insight, the name is a bit of a misnomer. I would consider expanding the skills to include Persuasion or call it something different, like 'Calculating Liar' or the like.
    -The Approaches feel... odd. Reading the flavor text and the abilities, they make sense, but just from the names, you wouldn't know how they connect to the theme. Possibly try renaming them to make them mesh better with the rest of the class? i.e. Hypnotist could become Manipulator or Influence, and Harlequin could be... something else. Just a suggestion, and I know that you're attached to the names of your subclasses, but maybe it would help clarity?

    Good class, good concept, and good execution! Just a couple of minor phrasing things and I think it's good to go.

    HERO
    I can't access GMBinder at the moment. If and when I can, I'll check back and review the Hero. Sorry I couldn't give you any feedback!

    DEADEYE
    -This One is Mine: The wording of the properties of the rifle seem a bit clumsy. Try cleaning it up and reducing it to one sentence?
    -Marksman Styles: It seems like you started typing a sentence, got distracted, and forgot to finish. At least put a period on!
    -Increased Accuracy: I can't see what the major difference between this and multiattack. Why not just make it multiattack?
    -I like how your class features are reminiscent of military tactics and the class is more a soldier than a flamboyant, pistol-holding, baggy-pant-wearing swashbuckler!
    -Archetypes and Called Shots, without heavy analysis, looks good!

    Nice class, different from the more romantic archetype and gritter than the other options I've seen. I would just ask what makes this class so unexpected? There's a lot of INT-based gunslingers out there...

    DEATHWALKER
    -It's interesting: the Whitescourge and the Deathwalker are almost exact polar opposites. Both draw immense power from an outside plane, use their stamina to cast spells and utilize the energy, and represent opposite ends of the life spectrum! Great minds think alike, I suppose...
    -The lack of flavor text breaks my description-loving little heart. I assume you'l add some in later?
    -15 hit points for a 1st level slot? That feels like a lot, considering a 1st level character might (will) die from that. Maybe consider rescaling Blood Magic just a tad?
    -Without my beloved flavor text to give a lore explanation, Walk Between Worlds feels out of place. All of a sudden, when there once was a pure necro class, now we can traverse the planes? Some context for the ability would be nice.

    Very nice! I see no balance issues, just some thematic things. Flavor text should clear it right up!
    See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...

    Hey, I have an extended signature now!

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post

    DEATHWALKER
    -It's interesting: the Whitescourge and the Deathwalker are almost exact polar opposites. Both draw immense power from an outside plane, use their stamina to cast spells and utilize the energy, and represent opposite ends of the life spectrum! Great minds think alike, I suppose...
    -The lack of flavor text breaks my description-loving little heart. I assume you'l add some in later?
    -15 hit points for a 1st level slot? That feels like a lot, considering a 1st level character might (will) die from that. Maybe consider rescaling Blood Magic just a tad?
    -Without my beloved flavor text to give a lore explanation, Walk Between Worlds feels out of place. All of a sudden, when there once was a pure necro class, now we can traverse the planes? Some context for the ability would be nice.

    Very nice! I see no balance issues, just some thematic things. Flavor text should clear it right up!
    1) I will indeed by adding in a great amount of flavor text as soon as I can find the time. Deathwalkers were self-tailored for a specific campaign setting, and they are pretty crucial there. Basically deathwalkers are necromancers that pool their power from another plane of existence known as Zihnn. Zihnn used to be a desolate cavern only full of bestial monsters that cannibalized each other in the darkness, but once the Gods died the souls of the dead started drifting to its necromantic energies. Some living people have found ways to siphon power from this plane via Astral Projection, mainly through manifesting curses and the raising of the dead. Arcane casters draw power from R'lyeh, divine casters draw power from Leng, animist/nature casters draw power from Sylwyth, but Deathwalkers draw their power from the fourth plane; Zihnn. Much more will be revealed later.

    2) Blood Magic I worry would become too overpowered very easily. The high HP cost makes one reluctant to do it, but that is intentional. I don't want people spamming blood magic. Judging by the fact those spells on average only do a little damage then they take to fuel, It is a point of complication.

    3) Deathwalkers are just as much ferrymen on the River Styx as they are necromancers. By 20th level they sort of ascend into psychopomp status. Through that ability they actually can lead the souls of the dead through Zihnn. They basically can turn into Charon by max level, which was a big inspiration for this class really.
    -
    I have designed a Gothic Horror TTRPG built for actual play performances. If you want to play some sessions using it or talk theory, read more about it here!

    My D&D 5e Homebrew Content

    The Necronomicon. An >30 Page Cthulhu Mythos Supplement

    Faerie Vampyre Monsters. Won 1st place in the GitP Monster Design Contest: Shapeshifters.

    Check here for my extended homebrew signature!

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    I'm going to do my best to put my 2 cents in, but I'm not the greatest and homebrew and balance testing, so take anything I say with a grain of salt!

    MESMER
    -I can definitely see the rogue influences here, and while the classes are similar, you took this in a wildly different direction, so no need to worry there! I also like how most of your abilities are short and to the point, something I'm striving to do with the Whitescourge!
    -Quick Thinking: does the Intelligence modifier stack on top of the normal ability? For example, I have a +1 STR and +4 INT. I make an Athletics check with QT. Do I add a +4 or +5 due to my ability scores?
    -Social Savant: If it's only for Deception vs. Insight, the name is a bit of a misnomer. I would consider expanding the skills to include Persuasion or call it something different, like 'Calculating Liar' or the like.
    -The Approaches feel... odd. Reading the flavor text and the abilities, they make sense, but just from the names, you wouldn't know how they connect to the theme. Possibly try renaming them to make them mesh better with the rest of the class? i.e. Hypnotist could become Manipulator or Influence, and Harlequin could be... something else. Just a suggestion, and I know that you're attached to the names of your subclasses, but maybe it would help clarity?

    Good class, good concept, and good execution! Just a couple of minor phrasing things and I think it's good to go!
    Woo, thanks for reading and commenting!

    On Quick Thinking, yep, that was the intention. I’ve cleaned up the wording a bit, hopefully that stops any confusion. For Social Savant, the benefit applies to the mesmers insight checks on others as well, so the social part came from being adept at reading other people. Might need some more flavour text in there to clarify.

    I get your point on the names subclasses, and it’s fair critique. But like you point out I am pretty attached to them at this point. I like to think that the mesmer base class is a set of skills and abilities that the character innately has, and their approach is more like their day job than a special branch of psychic powers. I’m sure there are plenty of mesmers who would be doctors or lawyers rather than clowns or spoon benders, but they were the two I ran with for this competition.

    I’ve also updated Mental Dominance, Paych Out and the Harlequin’s Mocking Strike. It’s been fun (read: a pain) trying to balance all these abilities, and avoid stepping on each other’s toes or stacking up to end up overpowered.

    In regards to your Whitescourge, I stopped being worried about using Con for casting when I saw the hit dice mechanic. No dramas there now! I will have to have a closer look in the next couple of days because I must have been confused about the way their casting worked in regards to spell slot levels. Looking forward to reading revised subclasses!
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    • Stand Down feels odd in the core class (it could be a subclass feature for a commando or Walking Arsenal).
    Missed this on the first go-round. The whole class is a commando class - hence why things like Ghillie Suit, Tactical cover and Silencer are part of the base class.

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    It does seem a little odd to get your 4th Extra Attack-analogue as well on top of the ability to insta-kill at level 20.
    That's a good point. I've now made it that your 20th level feature always ignores resistance to piercing, then the player can choose EITHER Increased Accuracy (x4) OR Vorpal Headshot. Snipers & Gun Kata players will probably lean towards Headshot, while Arsenals would lean towards another increased accuracy die (because they already have an increased crit range, and all abilities are based on weapon hit)

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    I am still a little worried about the Walking Arsenal gaining access to 4 8d8 Lightning Bolt analogues at 3rd level.
    Adjusted damage, so it's now more like a Fireball, dealing 6d8 instead of 8d6 damage, and limited to 2. It still has the Lightning Bolt mechanic, though

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Thematically, using Int for attacks, guns in DnD, and some of the more modern/camo abilities set it apart from any other class enough for it to not meet my expectations. Ticked that box!
    Thanks!

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    -Marksman Styles: It seems like you started typing a sentence, got distracted, and forgot to finish. At least put a period on!
    Fixed!

    I also removed proficiency to damage, that was a goof.

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    -Increased Accuracy: I can't see what the major difference between this and multiattack. Why not just make it multiattack?
    Mechanically, it's identical to "Multiattack" or "extra attack"... except without the "multi" or "extra". A 20th level deadeye gives the player the physical dice roll that is *exactly the same* as a 20th level fighter... but instead of 4 individual attacks, it's one attack. You're still rolling 4 dice, and dealing damage based on the amount of hits, but it's only on a single target, because you're pulling the trigger precisely once. A unique difference is that if you have advantage on a single attack, all accuracy rolls are made with advantage... because it's just one attack.

    This is also important because of the Loading property that Rifles and Crossbows have -
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    Because of the time required to load this weapon, you can fire only one piece of ammunition from it when you use an action, bonus action, or reaction to fire it, regardless of the number of attacks you can normally make.
    Multiple attacks and Extra Attacks don't work with such a property by definition.

    The feel, playstyle-wise, is actually closer to the comparison between Fire Bolt and Eldritch Blast. At high level, both spells are dealing 4d10 damage to their target, but EB could potentially hit 4 different targets (and trigger hits 4 different times for things like Hex or Hexblade's Curse), and FB can only hit one target (and trigger a hit only once). The Increased accuracy mechanic is like a hybrid between the two - You're rolling attack and damage as though you're attacking a target with 4 rays, but it only counts as a single hit.

    The Gun Kata subclass eschews that by allowing one-handed firearms that do have the extra attack/multiattack feature.

    The Deadeye player could just as easily play the Elite Sniper or Walking Arsenal without a firearm, and using a heavy Crossbow.
    Last edited by Vogie; 2018-10-15 at 08:21 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    2) Blood Magic I worry would become too overpowered very easily. The high HP cost makes one reluctant to do it, but that is intentional. I don't want people spamming blood magic. Judging by the fact those spells on average only do a little damage then they take to fuel, It is a point of complication.

    3) Deathwalkers are just as much ferrymen on the River Styx as they are necromancers. By 20th level they sort of ascend into psychopomp status. Through that ability they actually can lead the souls of the dead through Zihnn. They basically can turn into Charon by max level, which was a big inspiration for this class really.
    Okay, that makes sense. For a moment I forgot the class still had actual spell slots as opposed to purely hit-point based casting. (This thread ain't big enough for the both of us...)

    I love that explanation, where eventually they become so attuned to Zihnn and death itself that they can transport souls to their respective afterlives! Could you put something like that in the flavor text of the Walk Between Worlds ability?


    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Woo, thanks for reading and commenting!

    On Quick Thinking, yep, that was the intention. I’ve cleaned up the wording a bit, hopefully that stops any confusion. For Social Savant, the benefit applies to the mesmers insight checks on others as well, so the social part came from being adept at reading other people. Might need some more flavour text in there to clarify.

    I get your point on the names subclasses, and it’s fair critique. But like you point out I am pretty attached to them at this point. I like to think that the mesmer base class is a set of skills and abilities that the character innately has, and their approach is more like their day job than a special branch of psychic powers. I’m sure there are plenty of mesmers who would be doctors or lawyers rather than clowns or spoon benders, but they were the two I ran with for this competition.

    I’ve also updated Mental Dominance, Paych Out and the Harlequin’s Mocking Strike. It’s been fun (read: a pain) trying to balance all these abilities, and avoid stepping on each other’s toes or stacking up to end up overpowered.

    In regards to your Whitescourge, I stopped being worried about using Con for casting when I saw the hit dice mechanic. No dramas there now! I will have to have a closer look in the next couple of days because I must have been confused about the way their casting worked in regards to spell slot levels. Looking forward to reading revised subclasses!
    Quick Thinking is now much clearer, as is the reasoning behind Social Savant. And the subclasses, your reasoning makes sense, but if you have the time or willpower, I would consider adding in another subclass that's more mundane just to show that side of the coin exists and that the Mesmer isn't just people who run around with swirly glasses on their face or in a puppet suit!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    Mechanically, it's identical to "Multiattack" or "extra attack"... except without the "multi" or "extra". A 20th level deadeye gives the player the physical dice roll that is *exactly the same* as a 20th level fighter... but instead of 4 individual attacks, it's one attack. You're still rolling 4 dice, and dealing damage based on the amount of hits, but it's only on a single target, because you're pulling the trigger precisely once. A unique difference is that if you have advantage on a single attack, all accuracy rolls are made with advantage... because it's just one attack.

    This is also important because of the Loading property that Rifles and Crossbows have -

    Multiple attacks and Extra Attacks don't work with such a property by definition.

    The feel, playstyle-wise, is actually closer to the comparison between Fire Bolt and Eldritch Blast. At high level, both spells are dealing 4d10 damage to their target, but EB could potentially hit 4 different targets (and trigger hits 4 different times for things like Hex or Hexblade's Curse), and FB can only hit one target (and trigger a hit only once). The Increased accuracy mechanic is like a hybrid between the two - You're rolling attack and damage as though you're attacking a target with 4 rays, but it only counts as a single hit.
    This makes it much more clear! I'll review the actual language used in the class to see if it's comprehensible to someone who hasn't received an explanation.
    EDIT: It's not. Even when I go through again, it reads the exact same as Multiattack to me. Try making it more clear that it's technically one attack, but you're testing to hit multiple times to deal more damage?
    Last edited by SunderedWorldDM; 2018-10-15 at 10:16 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    A version of the Biotinker is up. Review welcome, because I have a lot of worries:

    - Does the Augmentation system do funny things to power level (you can't put ribbons at certain levels, as you can always just choose a lower-leveled ability). Would replacing the fighter-y bonus ASIs with ribbons help with this?
    - Does the Augmentation system, fundamentally, work in 5e, or do I need to scrap it entirely? (I've been playing some Pathfinder 2e recently, and while it has a lot of flaws I really like its approach to classes; this is an homage to that which also fits with 'does not meet expectations').
    - Is it too monk-ish, with Weaponised Form being a mandatory first-level feature? I feel like the class should default to unarmed strikes, but I could also move it into the Augmentations and give more of those at 1st.
    - Is it cohesive? It's effectively a big grab bad of abilities, and I worry that that could become rather athematic. I have tried my hardest to keep the abilities matching that feel.

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post

    I love that explanation, where eventually they become so attuned to Zihnn and death itself that they can transport souls to their respective afterlives! Could you put something like that in the flavor text of the Walk Between Worlds ability?
    Yes, I will make sure to write a new description for Walk Between Worlds so that it mentions that as soon as I get them time. Thank you so much for your commentary, I will be writing the flavor text soon and I hope you take a liking to it. I shall try to get around to reviewing your class if I find the time.
    Last edited by Requilac; 2018-10-15 at 11:40 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SunderedWorldDM View Post
    This makes it much more clear! I'll review the actual language used in the class to see if it's comprehensible to someone who hasn't received an explanation.
    EDIT: It's not. Even when I go through again, it reads the exact same as Multiattack to me. Try making it more clear that it's technically one attack, but you're testing to hit multiple times to deal more damage?
    I've changed it to
    Beginning at 5th level, you gain the ability to increase your rifle damage output by firing your single shot more precisely. Whenever you take the Attack action with a two-handed ranged weapon with the loading property on your turn, you can roll 2 Accuracy dice instead. These dice are also d20s, and are rolled independently of each other; if you have advantage or disadvantage on your attack roll, you roll each accuracy die with either advantage or disadvantage. For each of the rolls, plus modifiers, that would equal or exceed the target’s AC, you roll damage, plus modifiers.
    Is that more clear?
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    ... does this stuff just come naturally to you? Do you even have to try anymore xD
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Vogie View Post
    I've changed it to


    Is that more clear?
    Much, thank you!
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Doing a Hero update based on feedback received.

    • Fixed a couple of formatting/typing errors.
    • Some class features were renamed/refluffed to be based on fate rather than divine intervention to further distinguish the narrative space of this class.
    • Relic Trinket now specifies that the additional heroics die it grants is restored on a short or long rest.
    • Returned Hero is now limited to the free rez effect in baseline, with an extra effect based on Destiny. The old bonus to death saves was moved to the Mighty Destiny. See the Cunning and newly complete Mystic Destinies for their own unique Returned Hero benefits.
    • Fated Warrior (new Divine Blessing) now causes all weapon attacks to deal 1d6 bonus damage. This bonus damage ignores resistances and immunities, but normal weapon damage does not.
    • Awakened Trinket now grants a bonus to saving throws on spending a dice, and its passive has changed to granting an additional extra use of Heroics. Awakened Weapon now counts as a +1 weapon. Awakened Focus no longer requires a damage dealing spell and now increases the next cantrip damage on spending a heroics die (much like relic weapon's die effect).
    • Apotheosis tuned down. The health restore was maintained, and it now causes 1s and 2s on the heroic die to be treated as 3s. All other effects removed.
    • Fortune's Favored crit range increase reduced to 19; otherwise unchanged.
    • Combat Ploy changed slightly. It now requires a Heroics die to use the movement portion also and grants +2 AC against the triggering attack (+3 with Improved Heroics).
    • Improved Heroics (Combat Ploy) wording clarified. The first Combat Ploy each round no longer requires or expends a Reaction.
    • The Mystic Destiny is written. The capstone is tentative for now (the boring part feels too strong compared to Cunning and Mighty, while the interesting part feels to niche).


    EDIT: I will get reviews for Whitescourge, Biotinker, and the rest of Emissary up tomorrow. If anyone else wants me to take a second look at their class because of large edits let me know.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-10-16 at 10:29 AM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Doing a Hero update based on feedback received.

    EDIT: I will get reviews for Whitescourge, Biotinker, and the rest of Emissary up tomorrow. If anyone else wants me to take a second look at their class because of large edits let me know.
    If you've got the time, I'd love a second glance at at the mesmer - mainly just how the Psych Out, Mental Dominance, and subclass 17th level features interplay. There's been a lot of chopping and changing with those three and I want to make sure they make sense to someone who isn't me.

    Your hero changes sound good to me - particularly the awakened items buffs - I will check them out with the Mystic Destiny this arvo.
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    If you've got the time, I'd love a second glance at at the mesmer - mainly just how the Psych Out, Mental Dominance, and subclass 17th level features interplay. There's been a lot of chopping and changing with those three and I want to make sure they make sense to someone who isn't me.

    Your hero changes sound good to me - particularly the awakened items buffs - I will check them out with the Mystic Destiny this arvo.
    • I think the change to incapacitated for Reactionary Charm is good, since it's at-will and stunned is really strong.
    • Mocking Strike I think you could just tack the damage directly onto the attack that activates it rather than making it trigger on the next attack. It's cleaner without drastically changing the numbers.
    • I like the new Psych Out (no crit-fishing multiclass, just straight up accuracy).
    • Mental Dominance triggering on misses has a negative interaction with other class features that boost accuracy (especially Psych Out), which typically feels bad, but it also mitigates bad dumb luck with misses, which feels good. I'm torn. As a gut instinct, I'm not a fan personally, but I can see some players being really excited to pick that up.


    Whitescourge

    • Convention is to spell out the saving throw DC formula every time. That said, we all know it, so I won't count it against you come voting time.
    • There's an ASI missing from your class chart at level 16 (checked the text and it's still there in the text part).
    • Primal Resilience (2) probably doesn't need to give immunity to people already resistant since they'll get it at 9. Primal Resilience (16) wording could be more open so that it applies to other sources of divine magic as well (including enemy Whitescourges).
    • Whitescourge Spellcasting is great, especially for this theme because of how unique it is, but you might want to put a limit based on class level on the maximum amount you can spend, or you'll have scourges throwing around 8th level spiritual weapon 7 levels before a cleric could.
    • Necrotic damage has some odd rules implications. For example, an undead Whitescourge (which by fluff should be an oxymoron) would be better at casting spells because of their necrotic resistance/immunity. As a damage type it fits the theme (you are literally giving up life force in order to cast spells), it only becomes weird when you look at what other things interact with necrotic damage.
    • In addition to getting hit dice back each short rest, you might give Expedited Revitalization some built-in short rest healing; they might need those hit dice to perform core functions like spellcasting. On a related note, can I spend hit dice I gain during a short rest immediately or do I have to wait until the next short rest?
    • Eternal Vitality could give full immunity to disease and poisoned (the condition), and should probably be a level earlier (level 11 should be a tier upgrade, and Eternal Vitality isn't impactful enough for that).
    • Vision of the Heartseer has too many restrictions. I would suggest allowing it to be used once successfully per long rest. You could also make it require one minute of study (no check or limited uses) similar to Battlemaster Fighter or Mastermind Rogues' features that detect game stats.
    • Unquenchable Life's wording is odd. It looks like it's supposed to be on your next turn you get the healing, but as written it would be you get healing on your turn if you took damage on that turn. Alternate wording suggestion: "At the start of your turn, if you have taken damage since the start of your last turn, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. This ability does not function if any of the damage taken in that time was necrotic damage."
    • You get a new spell level at 17, but it isn't one of the "tier upgrade" spell levels (3, 6, or 9); a class feature for the tier upgrade should go here.
    • Pulsing Form should have the level it's acquired in the text of the ability.


    Overall, the core class is really neat. It suffers from health attrition a lot though. I'd like to see either extra hit points per level (a la dragon sorcerer) or some way to regain hit points beyond hit dice, since you likely want to bank all of your hit dice for spellcasting.

    • Woundknitter's Pool of Life is a cool feature, but it doesn't actually restore any hit points, just moves them around (until Unquenchable Life kicks in at 15 that is).
    • Woundknitter's Death's Ward is redundant with spare the dying. It also shares its name with an existing spell.
    • Exalt's Exarch form requires unarmed strikes for bonus damage, but no other part of the class interacts with them (though I guess I didn't expect that so you could leave it in if you wanted).
    • How does Burning Blade's Mastery of Flame interact with Brilliant Technique?


    Of the subclasses, Woundknitter feels the weakest right now; it feels like it should fill the main healer role, but since it draws on your own hit points (which are already harder to regain than other classes per my comments on the main class) to do so, it winds up being mostly a status-quo or sometimes an overall loss. Exalt feels similarly strong, while Burning Blade feels like it's hit the balance point just about right (though I'd like the damage of Brilliant Technique to be based on levels in Whitescourge or an ability score rather than proficiency bonus).


    Emissary

    • Toll the Bell: I'm not a fan of proficiency modifier as a number-of-uses determiner (I missed this on my first read-through).
    • Defy the Dead should probably treat immunity as resistance, at least early on (it could improve later on).
    • Parasitic Bond is neat, and is kept from being too strong by the limitation of creatures of CR 1/4 or lower for Toll the Bell.
    • Walk Between Worlds could use a wording clarification, as it was hard for me to follow which plane it was referring to.



    Core class looks good, all of the mid-range features I didn't mention here felt right to me. Looking forward to subclasses!

    Biotinker

    • I'd like to see more body augmentations available (especially early on, maybe getting extra augmentations at 4, 6, and 10 but not new augmentation tiers), since they are taking the place of core features and the class has a pretty bare-bones list at the current rate.
    • Some augmentations are nearly mandatory (such as Guidance System or Extra Attack) in order to stay competitive, while others are just going to always be a good option (Improved Durability and Unarmored Defense-Int). Instead of increasing number of augmentations (or possibly in addition to doing so), you could make these core features.
    • Toxicology (Poison Injection) doesn't specify save DC. "against your body augmentation saving throw DC" would be sufficient.
    • Immunology is fine balance wise, but unexciting as its features are just clones of other classes' features. It would be nice to see something new here (or, as I mention in the next bullet, these features but with a twist).
    • Similarly, some of your current augmentations are just clones of existing features (especially the tier upgrade ones). This is obviously a necessity of homebrew, especially for such a modular class, but they would be more compelling if they had a unique twist to differentiate them from existing features. For example, your Unarmored Defense augmentation could give a static armor class or 13+Int instead of 10+Dex+Int, allowing the Biotinker to dump Dex if they wish (something no other unarmored defense class can do).
    • Reinforced Chassis gives Con saves way too early. The earliest any core class gets a extra saving throw proficiency is monk at 14 (all saves), and the only other one is rogue at 15 (Wis only). I'd say you could put an extra save as early as 9 if that was the only effect of the augmentation, but even that might be too soon for a primary save.



    I haven't done a deep reading pass of augmentations yet (I did mention a couple above from my skim through), but I like the core concept you've established for the class. At a glance, it might end up too strong (it gets multiple options for tier upgrade levels, and it can choose all of them, several before even the next tier upgrade), and it is probably the second biggest one-stat-wonder class (after my own submission), which makes for either really interesting characters or really uninteresting characters. I'll have to take another look when the rest of the augmentations are written.


    EDIT: What's the policy on multiple submissions? I told my table about this and they suggested a Chef class, which made me want to make a class that scales their combat effectiveness based on Artisan's Tools instead of weapons (with subclasses for Chef, Carpenter, and Tailor, among potential others). Probably gonna make it either way. Might replace my Hero if it falls together well.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-10-17 at 03:33 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    [LIST]
    Whitescourge

    • Convention is to spell out the saving throw DC formula every time. That said, we all know it, so I won't count it against you come voting time.
    • There's an ASI missing from your class chart at level 16 (checked the text and it's still there in the text part).
    • Primal Resilience (2) probably doesn't need to give immunity to people already resistant since they'll get it at 9. Primal Resilience (16) wording could be more open so that it applies to other sources of divine magic as well (including enemy Whitescourges).
    • Whitescourge Spellcasting is great, especially for this theme because of how unique it is, but you might want to put a limit based on class level on the maximum amount you can spend, or you'll have scourges throwing around 8th level spiritual weapon 7 levels before a cleric could.
    • Necrotic damage has some odd rules implications. For example, an undead Whitescourge (which by fluff should be an oxymoron) would be better at casting spells because of their necrotic resistance/immunity. As a damage type it fits the theme (you are literally giving up life force in order to cast spells), it only becomes weird when you look at what other things interact with necrotic damage.
    • In addition to getting hit dice back each short rest, you might give Expedited Revitalization some built-in short rest healing; they might need those hit dice to perform core functions like spellcasting. On a related note, can I spend hit dice I gain during a short rest immediately or do I have to wait until the next short rest?
    • Eternal Vitality could give full immunity to disease and poisoned (the condition), and should probably be a level earlier (level 11 should be a tier upgrade, and Eternal Vitality isn't impactful enough for that).
    • Vision of the Heartseer has too many restrictions. I would suggest allowing it to be used once successfully per long rest. You could also make it require one minute of study (no check or limited uses) similar to Battlemaster Fighter or Mastermind Rogues' features that detect game stats.
    • Unquenchable Life's wording is odd. It looks like it's supposed to be on your next turn you get the healing, but as written it would be you get healing on your turn if you took damage on that turn. Alternate wording suggestion: "At the start of your turn, if you have taken damage since the start of your last turn, you regain hit points equal to your proficiency bonus. This ability does not function if any of the damage taken in that time was necrotic damage."
    • You get a new spell level at 17, but it isn't one of the "tier upgrade" spell levels (3, 6, or 9); a class feature for the tier upgrade should go here.
    • Pulsing Form should have the level it's acquired in the text of the ability.


    Overall, the core class is really neat. It suffers from health attrition a lot though. I'd like to see either extra hit points per level (a la dragon sorcerer) or some way to regain hit points beyond hit dice, since you likely want to bank all of your hit dice for spellcasting.

    • Woundknitter's Pool of Life is a cool feature, but it doesn't actually restore any hit points, just moves them around (until Unquenchable Life kicks in at 15 that is).
    • Woundknitter's Death's Ward is redundant with spare the dying. It also shares its name with an existing spell.
    • Exalt's Exarch form requires unarmed strikes for bonus damage, but no other part of the class interacts with them (though I guess I didn't expect that so you could leave it in if you wanted).
    • How does Burning Blade's Mastery of Flame interact with Brilliant Technique?


    Of the subclasses, Woundknitter feels the weakest right now; it feels like it should fill the main healer role, but since it draws on your own hit points (which are already harder to regain than other classes per my comments on the main class) to do so, it winds up being mostly a status-quo or sometimes an overall loss. Exalt feels similarly strong, while Burning Blade feels like it's hit the balance point just about right (though I'd like the damage of Brilliant Technique to be based on levels in Whitescourge or an ability score rather than proficiency bonus).
    Corrected the ASI thing (don't know how I missed that), Primal Resilience, Spellcasting level cap (now max cast level half WS level), Mastery of Flame/Brilliant Blade (made them nonstacking), Death's Ward (will be replaced soon), Unquenchable Life (took your wording, thanks!), and Pulsing Form.

    What would you say for spellcasting damage instead of necrotic? Radiant?

    Expedited Revitalization is fine, I feel, because (at least in my experience) no one actually takes short rests anyway, and the class already has enough going for it by way of restoration effects. But if it's grossly underpowered, then I'll change it.

    Eternal Vitality fixed, but not moved. I put it there to fill a gap I had in the class progression, and they already got increased spells, cantrips, and Rebuke Undead at 10, so I don't think having a slightly weaker ability after that is too big a deal.

    I like Vision of the Heartseer as it is because it has a level of uncertainty in the analysis, and as far as making it a minute, I wanted it to be more like seeing an aura than studying an enemy, so an action is more appropriate. Maybe if I change it to a bonus action?

    Got it. A 17th-level ability. I'll see what I can come up with. Also, I'll adapt Woundknitter. I know it was terrible, I did it pretty quickly, so I'll take some time to figure out some good mechanics.

    Exalt originally had an unarmed strike mechanic, but it was grossly under-powered, so I cut it, but liked the idea of having the unarmed strike with the Exarch Form, so I kept it.

    About your 'healing commodity' complaint, I added in Pinnacle of Health, but I don't know if that tips the scales too heavily... Does it make the class overpowered or have a nice balance with the crap ton of hit points you get in return for all the self-damaging effects?
    Last edited by SunderedWorldDM; 2018-10-17 at 05:55 PM.
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    I think Pinnacle of Health works. Pre-pinnacle, a Whitescourge who used all of their hit dice on spellcasting would be expected to take about 4.5 damage per level per day from their spellcasting, or 9 if they got the DM's guide-recommended 2 short rests. They were expected to have 5+ Con Bonus health (+3 at first level) per level. Using all of their resources (and assuming max Con) they would deal a little less than half of their HP on average for the hit dice from a long rest (more conservatively, probably about a third). Now they're down to a little over a third for the long rest hit dice and a probably around a quarter conservatively, on average. If they do choose to short rest and use those hit dice for casting, that still leaves them with around half of their hit points for getting hit (with some extra hit dice left over to actually heal on short rests when needed. All of this is a rough estimate, but I think you're in a decent space health wise (leaves them some extra to work with Pool of Life for Woundknitter too).

    It should probably specify that it only applies to hit dice from Whitescourge levels so that you aren't bumping d6s from Wizard/Sorcerer up.

    EDIT: I would let (living) characters with resistant to necrotic damage just be better Whitescourges, but put in a clause that undead take radiant damage or just that Whitescourge abilities do not function for undead somewhere; undead Whitescourges just don't make sense to me, it's like combining matter and antimatter. Radiant is the only other damage type that makes sense but with Primal Resilience...well your choice of smiley sums it up.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-10-17 at 06:56 PM.
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  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post

    Emissary

    • Toll the Bell: I'm not a fan of proficiency modifier as a number-of-uses determiner (I missed this on my first read-through).
    • Defy the Dead should probably treat immunity as resistance, at least early on (it could improve later on).
    • Parasitic Bond is neat, and is kept from being too strong by the limitation of creatures of CR 1/4 or lower for Toll the Bell.
    • Walk Between Worlds could use a wording clarification, as it was hard for me to follow which plane it was referring to.


    Core class looks good, all of the mid-range features I didn't mention here felt right to me. Looking forward to subclasses!
    1) What is wrong with Toll the Bell having a number of uses based on proficiency bonus? It keeps the numbers manageable while having it scale with level, and it uses a number that is easy to remember. What are your objections to it?
    2) I could rewrite defy the dead so that immunity is treated as resistance, but I don't know why I should. That sort of mechanic isn't really seen in 5e, even magic weapons completely bypass immunity to nonmagical weapons. I could implement it, but what would that add? Its not like defy the dead is overpowered enough to deserve any more limitations, and this class is already incredibly low on features.
    3) Yes, I will need to re-write the description of walk between world's when I make the flavor text for the class and subclasses. Please be patient with me.
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  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Some more feedback 8-)

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    Class features all seem good. Class table is exciting - grafted-on weapons? Sweet. The features look a bit bare though, outside of Fighter-level ASIs, so it looks like augmentations might take the place of spells. Cool, let's take a look!

    Weaponised Form is pretty much what it says on the tin. Fists are weapons with competitive damage. I'm guessing most of the meat of the class will come from Body Augmentations. Lots of ASIs. Sufficiently Advanced Strikes comes at the right level. At a glance, it seems a little odd that neither class nor subclass gets a capstone feature.

    Toxicology: Poison Injection is a cool, if odd (unexpected!) first feature. Solid damage, but only once per rest, and a commonly resisted damage type. I love the fluff of using it while shaking hands with a sleazy merchant or underhanded baron who thinks you've just signed your own death warrant. I think you could probably add more uses though - maybe Int mod/long rest. Or no damage on a save, but you can keep using it until somebody fails the save, you get max damage at least once. Toxic Dart is missing the "at 10th level" blurb, and the words "expend a use of your Poison Injection reinforce the idea that you should get to it more than once per rest. I think it's a useful upgrade for the main subclass feature though, good stuff.

    Immunology: Self-repair is cool and fitting but seems a little weak considering you get it a level later than the Fighter and it's your first/defining feature. I'd be tempted to either up the uses, or add a small benefit that you gain when you use the feature, like advantage on your next attack as your systems go into overdrive, or resistance to all damage until the start of your next turn. Healthy Body sort of feels the same. It's useful, but very passive, and pretty situational. Unless 'poison' includes both the condition and the damage type.

    Optics: I was going to say that Improved Darkvision was an underpowered first feature as well until I read Threat Analysis. I think this is a sweet combo for this level and like it a lot. Retinal Overlay continues the theme. It is a lot of potential expertise for a martial class - if they are great in combat, and great at common skills like Perception and Insight, it might overshadow the rogue/ranger.

    Body Augmentations: I love the flavour text of Spiny Body. It is a little odd reading through these that such a SAD class gets so many ASIs. You can use Int to attack, Int for your hit points, Int for stealth, Int to decrease damage taken, Int for saving throws, and Int and Dex for your AC. I'm not sure it's overpowered, since you don't really want any weapon feats between your natural weapons and simple-weapons-only restriction, it just feels...strange. What feats do you take after you've maxed Int at 6-8? Are there still a few levels of augmentations to come at this stage? I really like the augmentations that are specific to one Field of Study, or build on earlier ones. Shattering Leap is badass. I think Acidic Blood should probably be save-or-suck, especially when paired with Programmed Alacrity vs a baddy with 2 attacks.

    In regards to your specific worries:

    - Augmentation power level: I think there are definitely must-picks at each level, but the fact you get to choose more than one per level makes it fine in principal. I do like the idea of replacing the bonus ASIs with ribbons - you could even keep the theme going by offering a choice of 3-4 ribbon features at those levels. Are there realistically any builds you can think of that wouldn't take Extra Attack? If not, you could probably also make Extra Attack the base level 5 feature for the class, and move the other features up or down as you see fit.

    Augmentation feasibility: I think it's a fine base system to work with. There's certainly a precedent in the Warlock's Invocations, and they all tie into the same thing. I like that you can either double down on one aspect, or become a sort of generalist bio-freak with a bit of everything thrown in.

    Monk-toe-stepping: I wouldn't worry about this at all. Really the only similarities are that you're both punching stuff.

    Cohesion: as above, it's cool that you can sort of take the class where you want it. I really would like to see a class or subclass capstone, probably at 18th level, when you're not getting an ASI or a spell (augmentation) level, just to tie things in together. Flavour text would also help, but I think it's a pretty self explanatory chassis. No dramas here about the class standing on its own.



    Spoiler: Emissary of Zihnn
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    I'm not sure about MoleMage, but my issue with Toll the Bell scaling with proficiency is that it makes the Emissary an attractive 2 level dip, and a level 18 Wizard/2 Emissary will have the same amount of uses as a level 20 Emissary, which sort of feels wrong for such a core thematic feature.

    Undead Fortitude is a really interesting mechanic in that as long as it keeps working, you keep standing up. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Really cool stuff.

    Parasitic Bond is a nice defensive feature. It is a little odd it recharges on a short rest given Toll the Bell, Undead Fortitude, and spells all restore on a long rest.

    Uncanny Endurance is a whole stack of abilities that on their own would probably be underpowered even for ribbons, but together seem about right despite the complexity.

    Still looking forward to subclasses!



    Spoiler: Hero
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    I like the changes to Cross the Threshold. Getting subclass-specific boosts is really cool.

    Mystic Destiny: Mystic Attunement is a really nice first-level feature. Scaling at 6 is good. Soul Burst does seem weak, and the buffs to it at 14 feel too little too late. 1d8 damage in a cone, save-or-suck, is pretty ordinary - especially considering most horde-likely mobs have a high Dex, unless you are facing a wall of zombies. I'd either double the dice at level 6, or make it save-on-half from the start, or add Cha damage, or something. It is a little hard to balance when it's only replacing one attack; I'd almost be tempted to buff it up a fair bit and make it a separate action all on its own. You only get limited Heroics dice, so it makes sense to have them be discrete actions. I think that would help solidify this non-spell-casting subclass as the spell-casting subclass as well.

    At first glance, Divine Battle, Divine Mysticism and Divine Cunning are all really powerful capstones. Level 20 is level 20 and all but they do seem to make a solid base class into a diamond one. But then I did the math on a dual wielding divine might hero vs a level 20 fighter, and they came out pretty much exactly the same so I'm not sure how to feel. I think I continually undervalue the difference being a d6 hit die class with no martial weapons or fighting style makes. The double-concentration does bother me though, if only because sorcerers and Twinned metamagic exist meaning someone could essentially be concentrating on four spells at once.

    Updates to Awakened Relic are great.



    Apologies if none of this makes sense, my brain feels a little mushy at the moment. Get all the sleep you can before the baby is born, they say. Between cramps and rolling over being akin to climbing Mt Everest and a couple of big Braxton Hicks false alarms, neither of us have had a decent sleep in weeks!

    New class contest idea: babies. Psychic damage, concentration debuffs, disadvantage on Investigation checks to find stuff you put down 5 minutes ago.

    Edit: for a real class contest idea, how about “mirror image” or “reversal” or something similar? Take an existing class and flip it on its head, mechanically or thematically. Might be a bit too similar to this one though.
    Last edited by pygmybatrider; 2018-10-18 at 07:15 AM.
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  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Having trouble coming up with ideas, might quickly see what you guys think. Currently, I’m thinking of a Lawyer class, some kind of Thud and Blunder Strength-based spellcaster, or

    The Advocate (working name) would be a class that (a) relies on legal argument and trickery as a theme, (b) must have a client to use their abilities (and is kind of a guardian), and (c) is a typical squishy clerky person (so not normally someone one would expect to shield someone else). My only concern is it seems to be similar to normal wizards/warlocks in certain respects, especially the dependency on Intelligence and Charisma, save for interject into melee combat part (which I’m struggling to mechanically justify). Maybe Phoenix Wright as an inspiration? Some ideas below:
    • Unconventional combatant, so few weapons and armor, lots of skills.
    • The Advocate could select an ally to be the Plaintiff, and seeking to defend them, while designating their target or attacker as a Defendant, and perhaps have the rest of the party be the Jury?
    • Contracts as rituals?
    • Paths might include Public Defender (Lawful Good),
    • Possibly build up a “case” and defeat opponents with a summation?
    • Maybe minimize dependency on ability scores altogether?
    • Expertise on certain skills - Persuasion, Deception, etc.?


    The Thud Mage is even more ill-formed - essentially it is a wizard who thinks it is a fighter. The idea was to replicate everything wrong with the Thud and Blunder genre (slicing people like jello, riding impossible distances through snow, loincloths and bikini armor...) and “explain” it as the delusions of someone with moderate magical talent. In some ways it is perhaps too close to the 3.5e Tome of Battle classes, though, and unlike the Advocate, where I can see some valid roleplay opportunities, the Thud Mage is a bit of a joke.

    I’m not sure what else to try...
    2B or not 2B, that is... a really inane question

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  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Paleomancer View Post
    Having trouble coming up with ideas, might quickly see what you guys think. Currently, I’m thinking of a Lawyer class, some kind of Thud and Blunder Strength-based spellcaster, or

    The Advocate (working name) would be a class that (a) relies on legal argument and trickery as a theme, (b) must have a client to use their abilities (and is kind of a guardian), and (c) is a typical squishy clerky person (so not normally someone one would expect to shield someone else). My only concern is it seems to be similar to normal wizards/warlocks in certain respects, especially the dependency on Intelligence and Charisma, save for interject into melee combat part (which I’m struggling to mechanically justify). Maybe Phoenix Wright as an inspiration? Some ideas below:
    • Unconventional combatant, so few weapons and armor, lots of skills.
    • The Advocate could select an ally to be the Plaintiff, and seeking to defend them, while designating their target or attacker as a Defendant, and perhaps have the rest of the party be the Jury?
    • Contracts as rituals?
    • Paths might include Public Defender (Lawful Good),
    • Possibly build up a “case” and defeat opponents with a summation?
    • Maybe minimize dependency on ability scores altogether?
    • Expertise on certain skills - Persuasion, Deception, etc.?


    The Thud Mage is even more ill-formed - essentially it is a wizard who thinks it is a fighter. The idea was to replicate everything wrong with the Thud and Blunder genre (slicing people like jello, riding impossible distances through snow, loincloths and bikini armor...) and “explain” it as the delusions of someone with moderate magical talent. In some ways it is perhaps too close to the 3.5e Tome of Battle classes, though, and unlike the Advocate, where I can see some valid roleplay opportunities, the Thud Mage is a bit of a joke.

    I’m not sure what else to try...
    The Advocate sounds kinda cool. I'd pursue that one.
    See that cool Teifling? Thanks, potatopeelerkin! If you want something like it, they have more avatars up for adoption in the thread with the same name...

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  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Some more feedback 8-)

    Spoiler: Hero
    Show

    I like the changes to Cross the Threshold. Getting subclass-specific boosts is really cool.

    Mystic Destiny: Mystic Attunement is a really nice first-level feature. Scaling at 6 is good. Soul Burst does seem weak, and the buffs to it at 14 feel too little too late. 1d8 damage in a cone, save-or-suck, is pretty ordinary - especially considering most horde-likely mobs have a high Dex, unless you are facing a wall of zombies. I'd either double the dice at level 6, or make it save-on-half from the start, or add Cha damage, or something. It is a little hard to balance when it's only replacing one attack; I'd almost be tempted to buff it up a fair bit and make it a separate action all on its own. You only get limited Heroics dice, so it makes sense to have them be discrete actions. I think that would help solidify this non-spell-casting subclass as the spell-casting subclass as well.

    At first glance, Divine Battle, Divine Mysticism and Divine Cunning are all really powerful capstones. Level 20 is level 20 and all but they do seem to make a solid base class into a diamond one. But then I did the math on a dual wielding divine might hero vs a level 20 fighter, and they came out pretty much exactly the same so I'm not sure how to feel. I think I continually undervalue the difference being a d6 hit die class with no martial weapons or fighting style makes. The double-concentration does bother me though, if only because sorcerers and Twinned metamagic exist meaning someone could essentially be concentrating on four spells at once.

    Updates to Awakened Relic are great.



    Apologies if none of this makes sense, my brain feels a little mushy at the moment. Get all the sleep you can before the baby is born, they say. Between cramps and rolling over being akin to climbing Mt Everest and a couple of big Braxton Hicks false alarms, neither of us have had a decent sleep in weeks!

    New class contest idea: babies. Psychic damage, concentration debuffs, disadvantage on Investigation checks to find stuff you put down 5 minutes ago.

    Edit: for a real class contest idea, how about “mirror image” or “reversal” or something similar? Take an existing class and flip it on its head, mechanically or thematically. Might be a bit too similar to this one though.
    Did we already put "time" on the list? Babies could be a subset of time while allowing non-jokey classes alongside them.

    RE: damage maths for mighty destiny, don't forget that they can get access to martial weapons through Relic Weapon. This brings their expected "per-hit" to ~34 if they use Heroic Strike or ~23 if they don't, not including benefits such as rerolling 1s and 2s on the dice or assuming any feats. Sustainably they can do ~46 average damage per round (assuming all attacks hit), compared to the fighter's ~48 (again, I didn't include fighting style or feats). Their nova goes up to ~68, while the fighter novas up to ~96, though the Hero has more resources to distribute. The increased throughout the day nova I think is approximately compensated by the fact that Heroes have to compete with other features for their nova resource while fighers generally don't.

    RE: Soul Burst, I wasn't completely sold on this feature myself. I'll see about buffing it (I want some sort of throwing energy around ability here, but this one could be stronger). EDIT: Soul Burst buff idea: It now adds Charisma to damage and does half damage on save by default. It also benefits from Fated Warrior when that feature is unlocked. Improved Soul Burst now allows it to be used twice per round (replacing both attacks, or two of three if two-weapon fighting) in addition to doubling the Heroics die.

    RE: double-concentration, I hadn't considered interactions with twinned spell. I guess technically you could combine the two with say...haste to affect 4 targets with two third level spell slots and 6 sorcery points plus a heroic die. What are the worst abuse cases for twinned-spell concentration effects? Dominate Person/Hold Monster? Haste isn't so bad (you could get the same effect by casting it at 6th level instead of 3rd, this is just an efficiency shift). Dominate Monster could be twinned but not recast by the sorcerer, so the normal number of targets is affected the sorcerer just gets to do other things during that time. Stoneskin is pretty nice if you can get it. Hmmm...I'll look into rewriting this feature when I go to do fluff.
    Last edited by MoleMage; 2018-10-18 at 03:12 PM.
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  24. - Top - End - #54
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    I will try and see if I can make the complete flavor descriptions for the Emissary of Zihnn this weekend. I have been too caught up with other things to get to it. Hopefully now I can make some real progress.

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Some more feedback 8-)

    I'm not sure about MoleMage, but my issue with Toll the Bell scaling with proficiency is that it makes the Emissary an attractive 2 level dip, and a level 18 Wizard/2 Emissary will have the same amount of uses as a level 20 Emissary, which sort of feels wrong for such a core thematic feature.

    Undead Fortitude is a really interesting mechanic in that as long as it keeps working, you keep standing up. What doesn't kill me makes me stronger. Really cool stuff.

    Parasitic Bond is a nice defensive feature. It is a little odd it recharges on a short rest given Toll the Bell, Undead Fortitude, and spells all restore on a long rest.

    Uncanny Endurance is a whole stack of abilities that on their own would probably be underpowered even for ribbons, but together seem about right despite the complexity.

    Still looking forward to subclasses!
    I will say this every time I enter one of these competitions, I cannot consider multi-classing into the equation. That will complicate things far more than they should. I find that using proficiency bonus is the most elegant and streamlined solution to this, and despite lacking a precedent gives the number and scaling I want. If we are to consider multiclassing than everything becomes much more complex than it needs to be. This is why there is note about it my homebrew compendium. Even core classes don't factor multiclassing into their design, hence why the cofeelock is a thing, so how could I perfectly address the problems of multiclassing?

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Apologies if none of this makes sense, my brain feels a little mushy at the moment. Get all the sleep you can before the baby is born, they say. Between cramps and rolling over being akin to climbing Mt Everest and a couple of big Braxton Hicks false alarms, neither of us have had a decent sleep in weeks!

    New class contest idea: babies. Psychic damage, concentration debuffs, disadvantage on Investigation checks to find stuff you put down 5 minutes ago.

    Edit: for a real class contest idea, how about “mirror image” or “reversal” or something similar? Take an existing class and flip it on its head, mechanically or thematically. Might be a bit too similar to this one though.
    I am not a big fan of the mirror image idea. It doesn't seem so much based around creating a unique and new class so much as making an antithesis to another. I have my concerns that most of the class features would simply revolve around inverses of existing class features. Like an anti-bard which can use a bonus action to apply a negative bonus to an enemy's rolls ala anti-inspiration style. That competition sounds like a breeding ground for banality.
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  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Requilac View Post
    I will say this every time I enter one of these competitions, I cannot consider multi-classing into the equation. That will complicate things far more than they should. I find that using proficiency bonus is the most elegant and streamlined solution to this, and despite lacking a precedent gives the number and scaling I want. If we are to consider multiclassing than everything becomes much more complex than it needs to be. This is why there is note about it my homebrew compendium. Even core classes don't factor multiclassing into their design, hence why the cofeelock is a thing, so how could I perfectly address the problems of multiclassing?
    I mean, you definitely can take multiclassing into consideration when you're homebrewing a class. Whether or not you do is up to you, of course. For a relevant example from this thread, I changed the mesmer's Psych Out feature from granting advantage on attack rolls to adding Int to the attack roll. They are mechanically very similar, with the new change starting out slightly worse on average and ending up slightly better, but prevents abuse with a rogue multiclass for sneak attack, or some sort of Champion crit-fishing build.

    I would also say that WoTC pretty clearly considered multiclassing when designing their base classes, even though multiclassing is technically an optional rule in 5E. For example, being explicitly unable to stack Extra Attack and Unarmored Defense, rules for multiclassing spellcasters, Wild Shape working with all class features rather than simply Druid ones, Clerics and Paladins sharing Channel Divinity, off the top of my head - these have definitely been intentionally factored into class design.

    For the simplest of solutions, if you aren't completely anti-anything-to-do-with-multiclassing-in-my-homebrew-classes, is to give the classes additional uses of the feature when they reach 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level in the class. Mechanically it functions exactly the same, you have maybe one extra line of text, and it stops any multiclassing trickery in its tracks.

    Ultimately, of course, it's your homebrew and how you do it is totally up to you, but food for thought.

    I am not a big fan of the mirror image idea. It doesn't seem so much based around creating a unique and new class so much as making an antithesis to another. I have my concerns that most of the class features would simply revolve around inverses of existing class features. Like an anti-bard which can use a bonus action to apply a negative bonus to an enemy's rolls ala anti-inspiration style. That competition sounds like a breeding ground for banality.
    Yeah, I can see certain changes being very boring. Others, however, could be interesting - a Paladin-based class that uses spell slots to heal instead of deal damage. Divine Smite? Never heard of it. Here, have some Divine Light!

    I did also mention thematic opposites as well as mechanical - a neo-noir detective class as an urban take on the outdoorsy ranger class, a brawny 'thug' take on the rogue etc...but oh well, different strokes for different folks... 8-)

    Quote Originally Posted by MoleMage View Post
    Did we already put "time" on the list? Babies could be a subset of time while allowing non-jokey classes alongside them.

    RE: damage maths for mighty destiny, don't forget that they can get access to martial weapons through Relic Weapon. This brings their expected "per-hit" to ~34 if they use Heroic Strike or ~23 if they don't, not including benefits such as rerolling 1s and 2s on the dice or assuming any feats. Sustainably they can do ~46 average damage per round (assuming all attacks hit), compared to the fighter's ~48 (again, I didn't include fighting style or feats). Their nova goes up to ~68, while the fighter novas up to ~96, though the Hero has more resources to distribute. The increased throughout the day nova I think is approximately compensated by the fact that Heroes have to compete with other features for their nova resource while fighers generally don't.
    Time would be interesting! Chronomancers, grim reapers and babies in the ultimate showdown.

    Yeah, it seems the more I think about it the more in-line Mighty Destiny is. It just feels odd that you can tack an extra 1d10 on to at-will melee attacks at 20th and still be within the power curve. D&D is a funny game.

    RE: Soul Burst, I wasn't completely sold on this feature myself. I'll see about buffing it (I want some sort of throwing energy around ability here, but this one could be stronger). EDIT: Soul Burst buff idea: It now adds Charisma to damage and does half damage on save by default. It also benefits from Fated Warrior when that feature is unlocked. Improved Soul Burst now allows it to be used twice per round (replacing both attacks, or two of three if two-weapon fighting) in addition to doubling the Heroics die.
    Sounds better already. I love the idea of a class-feature blast replacing spell-slot blasts, but it's gotta have enough oomph to make it worthwhile.

    RE: double-concentration, I hadn't considered interactions with twinned spell. I guess technically you could combine the two with say...haste to affect 4 targets with two third level spell slots and 6 sorcery points plus a heroic die. What are the worst abuse cases for twinned-spell concentration effects? Dominate Person/Hold Monster? Haste isn't so bad (you could get the same effect by casting it at 6th level instead of 3rd, this is just an efficiency shift). Dominate Monster could be twinned but not recast by the sorcerer, so the normal number of targets is affected the sorcerer just gets to do other things during that time. Stoneskin is pretty nice if you can get it. Hmmm...I'll look into rewriting this feature when I go to do fluff.
    I didn't realise Haste could affect additional targets if upcast - unless this has been errata'd in, it's not in my PHB printing. My love for the spell has grown even greater if so. It is definitely a niche case, but a Sorcerer could double-twin things like Haste and Greater Invisibility onto the barbarian and the ranger. Polymorph for 4 T-rexes as well. Dropping the Heroics-die to the concentration check would probably make it easier to swallow, but would also make it much weaker if you don't have a Twinning sorcerer in the party.

    Damn sorcs, they ruined sorcland!

    Last edited by pygmybatrider; 2018-10-20 at 09:05 AM.
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    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    I didn't realise Haste could affect additional targets if upcast - unless this has been errata'd in, it's not in my PHB printing. My love for the spell has grown even greater if so. It is definitely a niche case, but a Sorcerer could double-twin things like Haste and Greater Invisibility onto the barbarian and the ranger. Polymorph for 4 T-rexes as well. Dropping the Heroics-die to the concentration check would probably make it easier to swallow, but would also make it much weaker if you don't have a Twinning sorcerer in the party.
    Upon review Haste can't. I don't know why I thought it could. I'll start thinking about wording changes or new ideas for the feature.
    Currently operating the 5e Subclass Contest and the 5e Base Class Contest. Check them out if even just to vote or give feedback, we love that in there.

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  27. - Top - End - #57
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    I mean, you definitely can take multiclassing into consideration when you're homebrewing a class. Whether or not you do is up to you, of course. For a relevant example from this thread, I changed the mesmer's Psych Out feature from granting advantage on attack rolls to adding Int to the attack roll. They are mechanically very similar, with the new change starting out slightly worse on average and ending up slightly better, but prevents abuse with a rogue multiclass for sneak attack, or some sort of Champion crit-fishing build.

    I would also say that WoTC pretty clearly considered multiclassing when designing their base classes, even though multiclassing is technically an optional rule in 5E. For example, being explicitly unable to stack Extra Attack and Unarmored Defense, rules for multiclassing spellcasters, Wild Shape working with all class features rather than simply Druid ones, Clerics and Paladins sharing Channel Divinity, off the top of my head - these have definitely been intentionally factored into class design.

    For the simplest of solutions, if you aren't completely anti-anything-to-do-with-multiclassing-in-my-homebrew-classes, is to give the classes additional uses of the feature when they reach 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th level in the class. Mechanically it functions exactly the same, you have maybe one extra line of text, and it stops any multiclassing trickery in its tracks.

    Ultimately, of course, it's your homebrew and how you do it is totally up to you, but food for thought.

    Fair enough, I will change it to simply having a number of uses that start out with two but gradually increase at the same rate as the proficiency bonus. It seems like a clunkier solution to me at first glance, but when thinking through it I don't know why that is so I am just going to shove that bias towards the subconscious recesses of my mind and feed it to my id.

    Quote Originally Posted by pygmybatrider View Post
    Yeah, I can see certain changes being very boring. Others, however, could be interesting - a Paladin-based class that uses spell slots to heal instead of deal damage. Divine Smite? Never heard of it. Here, have some Divine Light!

    I did also mention thematic opposites as well as mechanical - a neo-noir detective class as an urban take on the outdoorsy ranger class, a brawny 'thug' take on the rogue etc...but oh well, different strokes for different folks... 8-)
    These still seem to be based around incredibly banal subjects. Healing can already be done with spell slots, its called Cure Wounds. An urban style ranger sounds better off as a subclass and a brawny thug would just be a fighter. I can't help but imagine that all of these classes would simply be representations of things which are already present and possible within the game with the same amount of efficiency. To me, a homebrew class should be based around a flavor concept, not a mechanical one, and I fear that this mirror world idea focuses too much on the mechanics. Instead of seeing detailed classes with interesting fluff as submitted in the other competitions, I fear that this one will revolve into making anti-versions of all the classes with flavorless class features and no real mechanical nor thematic niche to occupy that can't already be done better by official rules.
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    I have designed a Gothic Horror TTRPG built for actual play performances. If you want to play some sessions using it or talk theory, read more about it here!

    My D&D 5e Homebrew Content

    The Necronomicon. An >30 Page Cthulhu Mythos Supplement

    Faerie Vampyre Monsters. Won 1st place in the GitP Monster Design Contest: Shapeshifters.

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  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Okay everybody the Emissary of Zihnn has no fully update flavor descriptions. I will now move onto the subclasses, which will be dependent on which domain of Zihnn the deathwalker draws their power from. Domains are specific sections of Zihnn which are overseen by a specific ruler. The manner in which someone dies dictates which domain they go to. This includes Chorobajed, where those who die by poison or disease go, and four others which I have yet to flesh out.
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    I have designed a Gothic Horror TTRPG built for actual play performances. If you want to play some sessions using it or talk theory, read more about it here!

    My D&D 5e Homebrew Content

    The Necronomicon. An >30 Page Cthulhu Mythos Supplement

    Faerie Vampyre Monsters. Won 1st place in the GitP Monster Design Contest: Shapeshifters.

    Check here for my extended homebrew signature!

  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Thought to revise the mesmer’s capstone.

    Change from re-rolling a miss with an added damage rider on hit as it seems antithetical to Paych Out’s main advantage being to make targets easier to hit.

    Potentially:

    A) grant a 4th reaction through another use of Lightning Reflexes
    B) add a rider to Psych Out that says while it is active, they have disadvantage on all mental saving throws
    C) you can use your reaction to force the target of your Psych Out feature to reroll an attack roll or saving throw
    D) combination of A and C
    E) combination of A and some other use of your reaction

    So far, for reactions we’ve got:

    1) normal opportunity attack
    2) Light Step - disengage and move half speed when a baddie approaches
    3) First Strike - one melee weapon attack when a baddie approaches (our Extra Attack)
    4) Countercut - one melee weapon attack when a baddie within 5 feet makes an attack roll (our 3rd attack/Imp divine smite)
    5) Mind Over Matter - turn any save into an Int save 1/rest

    For Harlequin:

    6) Laugh it Off - Rogues evasion

    For Hypnotist:

    6) Anodyne Trance - remove reactions from target (seems a bit weak on a second read through? Maybe reduce AC or grant advantage on the next attack against the target?)

    Adding the forced disadvantage would give 7 reaction options to fill 3, potentially 4 reactions. My worry is that with only 3, the Mesmer will really struggle to keep up in the damage dealing department as 2 of those reactions should be dedicated to attacks each turn to keep the pace with other martials. That makes me lean towards offering a 4th at 20.
    My 5E homebrew thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...omebrew-Thread

    Including:

    • Path of the Reaver Barbarian (kill all baddies with TWF!)
    • The Bulwark Martial Archetype (become a human shield!)
    • The Sporting Wizard (because magic is for sissies!)
    • Headhunter class (poison your weapons, scalp your enemies!)
    • Mesmer class (Int-based melee, extra reactions!)
    • Shaman class (thunderbolts and lightning!)

  30. - Top - End - #60
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Base Class Contest IV Chat Thread

    Alright then, the Emissary of Zihnn is essentially finished on the mechanical side. I still need to make it into a google doc, edit some grammatical errors, add in some pictures (I found a decently good amateur artist that drew some of the creatures I mention), and possibly make some homebrew spells, but other than that not much else is going to be changed. My main concern is that the subclasses aren't equal in power to one another, but when you have five subclasses, it changes things. Unless anyone makes a comment otherwise, this is probably going to be the final draft.

    Edit: As soon as I finish that, I will go look into reviewing the homebrew of others. I haven't really been able to do that recently and I must apologize for it.
    Last edited by Requilac; 2018-10-27 at 10:41 AM.
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    I have designed a Gothic Horror TTRPG built for actual play performances. If you want to play some sessions using it or talk theory, read more about it here!

    My D&D 5e Homebrew Content

    The Necronomicon. An >30 Page Cthulhu Mythos Supplement

    Faerie Vampyre Monsters. Won 1st place in the GitP Monster Design Contest: Shapeshifters.

    Check here for my extended homebrew signature!

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