Arcana Cleric considering Wizard dip

[BarneyBent]

Hi all,

First time playing D&D/any tabletop RPG of any description. Whole table are noobs, including DM who has played a bit but this is her first time DMing. She's running Tomb of Annihilation because we all like a challenge I guess.

Anyway, my character is a Variant Human Arcana Cleric with Magic Initiate (Druid) Feat for Shillelagh, Thorn Whip and Goodberry. For my Wizard cantrips I took Booming Blade and Shape Water, and Cleric cantrips are Guidance, Sacred Flame and Light. I rolled pretty well and got my WIS to 18, CON to 16, and INT and DEX to 14. My basic setup is Medium Armour and shield for 18 AC (eventually 20 AC with Half-Plate), Shillelaghed quarterstaff, Booming Blade (though I'm starting to think for this campaign I should have taken GFB instead, but oh well). Spiritual Weapon and Spirit Guardians will come online at level 3 and 5 respectively.

Rest of the party are:

Half-Orc Figher - Went standard array instead of rolling, standard build, AC 16-18 depending on whether she's TWF or sword and board. Also my character's half-sister, and the reason I dropped out of the War Wizard Academy and took up service to Mystra instead - the wizards turned out to be a bunch of anti-orc racists and I told them to piss off.

Half-Elf Bard - Also standard array, fairly standard support build. Lots of buffs, healing, antagonising enemies and running away from actual fighting.

V.Human Warlock - GOO. Rolled for stats, didn't roll super well and didn't take Eldritch Blast for some reason. Will hopefully take it with his next cantrip and pick up AB. Good at intimidation though. He and Bard have a decent good cop/bad cop thing going.

So, we're a little weak on ranged blasting. My character will be a solid secondary bruiser providing another source of damage and support to my very large little half-orc sister, and in some circumstances may even outpace her for damage.

Why am I thinking of dipping Wizard - War Magic? Four reasons:
1: this build will probably make heavy use of upcasting Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians for big fights, so losing spells known isn't too much of a problem so long as spell slots keep progressing.
2: with the whole death curse and undead, I'd like to try to avoid taking damage and failing saves as much as possible, so Shield Spell and War Magic's second level ability would be super handy
3. A bit more versatility/blasting potential if we need it.
4: Roleplay and character development.
5: I have a Flying Snake familiar courtesy of a cool DM, but no way of replacing it (even if just with an owl or something) if it dies.

Bonus cantrips and other spells are pretty much icing but obviously super useful (particularly casting rituals without needing to prepare them).

Pros:

Shield, +2 AC and +4 to saving throws, greater versatility with ritual casting, more spells prepared, and more cantrips. With half-plate, I could basically have a running AC of 22, 25 with Shield, and a pseudo-proficiency to all saves (including CON, which will also be at advantage for concentration checks with Warcaster, eventually).

Cons:

Assuming I finish at level 11, I will miss cap out at either level 8 or 9 depending on whether it's 2 or 3 wizard levels. This means missing out on Divine Intervention (eek), destroying CR2 undead (meh), and possibly 5th level Cleric spells.

So, my questions are:

Is the dip likely to be worth it?

If it is worth it, when, and how many levels? Key cleric levels I'm not keen to delay if I can avoid it are level 3 (Spiritual Weapon), level 5 (Spirit Guardians) and Level 8 (Potent Spellcasting giving Booming Blade a spellcasting modifier bonus to damage, second ASI which will give me both Warcaster and 20 WIS, though in what order I'll take those I'm unsure). However, taking 1 or 2 levels in Wizard earlier may substantially increase my durability and chances to actually get there - as I understand it, ToA can be a pretty brutal campaign and character death is likely.

Thanks in advance! :)

[McSkrag]

What levels are you now?

To get much out of Wizard you need 2 levels to get the War Magic school. But delaying your cleric spell progression by 2 levels for a game that is only going to 11ish sounds rough.

For example, at level 7 would you rather have 4th level cleric spells or 3rd level cleric and 1st level Wizard. I think the 4th level cleric spells like Death Ward and Banishment will do more for you.

I think you are probably better off just staying pure cleric.

[BarneyBent]

What levels are you now?

To get much out of Wizard you need 2 levels to get the War Magic school. But delaying your cleric spell progression by 2 levels for a game that is only going to 11ish sounds rough.

For example, at level 7 would you rather have 4th level cleric spells or 3rd level cleric and 1st level Wizard. I think the 4th level cleric spells like Death Ward and Banishment will do more for you.

I think you are probably better off just staying pure cleric.

I’m currently 2nd level. Spell progression is obviously my main concern, yes, but consider that with my build I would mostly be upcasting Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, the loss of higher spells known probably won’t be such a big deal.

[McSkrag]

So if you do decide to take a level of Wizard I would recommend just 1 level.

Your INT is only 14, and should stay that way, so Wizard attack/damage spells won't work quite as well, especially at higher levels.

You're better off focusing on wizard defense and utility spells. You could get Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Minor Illusion. You could also take an attack cantrip like Firebolt, Toll the Dead, or Chill Touch just to cover your bases.

You can take 1 wizard level whenever, so maybe try playing a couple more levels as pure cleric and watching to see how many times you really need one of the wizard spells. That will help you gauge how regularly useful it will be.

But really, taking 0-2 wizards levels will work fine and you should play the character you will have most fun with.

[Caesar]

Why am I thinking of dipping Wizard - War Magic? Four reasons:
1: this build will probably make heavy use of upcasting Spiritual Weapon, and Spirit Guardians for big fights, so losing spells known isn't too much of a problem so long as spell slots keep progressing.
2: with the whole death curse and undead, I'd like to try to avoid taking damage and failing saves as much as possible, so Shield Spell and War Magic's second level ability would be super handy
3. A bit more versatility/blasting potential if we need it.
4: Roleplay and character development.
5: I have a Flying Snake familiar courtesy of a cool DM, but no way of replacing it (even if just with an owl or something) if it dies.

Bonus cantrips and other spells are pretty much icing but obviously super useful (particularly casting rituals without needing to prepare them).

1. When you are upcasting, sure. But when you need that higher level spell and you dont have it yet, you can really feel it, especially if other casters in the party havent multiclassed. Just something to keep in mind with any full-caster hybrid. You also have to wait longer for your ASI, and this is a significant drawback.
2. Shield is super nice, but there are feats which you can use to gain it. Just keep that in mind.
3. Versatility will start to wane in battle with lvl 1 spells tho the utility spells are pretty much always useful, there is no blasting potential here for you with a 2 lvl dip however, what are you thinking man??
4. Great
5. You can get find familiar with a feat, but yes this is a very solid perk for taking wizard.
6. Ritual spell-casting is massive. So is arcane recovery. However, both will be strictly limited by your wizard CL, to lvl 1. Keep that in mind.

Generally speaking, a Cleric 1 or 2 (knowledge or arcana)/ Wizard X is a more optimal multiclass build. I'm running a high-elf Cleric 1 (knowledge)/Wizard X (divination) who is really hard to kill provided I don't take a major direct-hit. With shield, ac 20, +2 init (so far), misty step, and portent, that's pretty hard to do.

[BarneyBent]

So if you do decide to take a level of Wizard I would recommend just 1 level.

Your INT is only 14, and should stay that way, so Wizard attack/damage spells won't work quite as well, especially at higher levels.

You're better off focusing on wizard defense and utility spells. You could get Shield, Absorb Elements, Find Familiar, Minor Illusion. You could also take an attack cantrip like Firebolt, Toll the Dead, or Chill Touch just to cover your bases.

You can take 1 wizard level whenever, so maybe try playing a couple more levels as pure cleric and watching to see how many times you really need one of the wizard spells. That will help you gauge how regularly useful it will be.

But really, taking 0-2 wizards levels will work fine and you should play the character you will have most fun with.

Yeah I’m not planning on taking it until at least level 6 - I want spirit guardians and also my first ASI to either max WIS or grab Warcaster.

1. When you are upcasting, sure. But when you need that higher level spell and you dont have it yet, you can really feel it, especially if other casters in the party havent multiclassed. Just something to keep in mind with any full-caster hybrid. You also have to wait longer for your ASI, and this is a significant drawback.
2. Shield is super nice, but there are feats which you can use to gain it. Just keep that in mind.
3. Versatility will start to wane in battle with lvl 1 spells tho the utility spells are pretty much always useful, there is no blasting potential here for you with a 2 lvl dip however, what are you thinking man??
4. Great
5. You can get find familiar with a feat, but yes this is a very solid perk for taking wizard.
6. Ritual spell-casting is massive. So is arcane recovery. However, both will be strictly limited by your wizard CL, to lvl 1. Keep that in mind.

Generally speaking, a Cleric 1 or 2 (knowledge or arcana)/ Wizard X is a more optimal multiclass build. I'm running a high-elf Cleric 1 (knowledge)/Wizard X (divination) who is really hard to kill provided I don't take a major direct-hit. With shield, ac 20, +2 init (so far), misty step, and portent, that's pretty hard to do.

1. Yeah, true - I think if I do dip Wizard it will probably be after level 8 so I’ve got my second ASI and Potent Spellcasting. That will delay 5th level spells, which I’m not too worried about except for Greater Restoration and maybe Mass Cure Wounds.
2. Sure, but I want Warcaster and to max WIS.
3. Was thinking more if I took a 3 level dip, stuff like Dragon’s Breath on a familiar, especially upcasted, or a few other 2nd level wizard spells might be nice. But after further consideration my DC/spellcasting mod will be too low to make that effective at higher levels so yeah, not really a persuasive option.
5. Yeah, but again, Warcaster and WIS!
6. Yep, but even having Detect Magic constantly on call would be a nice bonus. It’s icing, but it’s tasty icing.

I think based on the feedback I’ll probably hold off til level 8 and see how I’m feeling. If I’m really hanging out for more powerful healing/restoration then I’ll take level 9 in cleric for those 5th level spells.

Of course, based on how the campaign progresses, I might die, or other party members may die and change the balance so that I no longer feel AC/melee durability is such a high priority. Level 8 is a long way away!