I think there can be trans characters

[ArkenBrony]

i know that rich has talked about his mistakes with the belt of femininity/masculinity and said he wouldn’t be doing trans characters because he’s already ruined it. But I don’t think he’s messed up as bad as he thinks. I feel like he could still do it.
I understand and respect his decision not to, im not trying to say anything bad about what rich is doing. I just think there could still be opportunities with what’s been done so far.

[Linneris]

For all we know, just about any minor character could be trans. And since it's not something that comes up in a casual conversation, we'll never know.

Does it really matter to the story if we never see a confirmed trans character? I think not.

[woweedd]

For all we know, just about any minor character could be trans. And since it's not something that comes up in a casual conversation, we'll never know.

Does it really matter to the story if we never see a confirmed trans character? I think not.

I mean, V and Inky are Genderqueer.

[Anymage]

For all we know, just about any minor character could be trans. And since it's not something that comes up in a casual conversation, we'll never know.

Does it really matter to the story if we never see a confirmed trans character? I think not.

This.

The stickverse seems like a super accepting place, and as a consequence nobody would care about trans status or treat anybody differently. As a consequence, it isn't really relevant as a character trait. Some minor character might be reluctant to accept a Remove Curse because they like their belt, if Rich feels like tossing the trans community a bone. Otherwise, if nobody in universe cares either way about the topic, nobody will bother to bring it up.

[martianmister]

The stickverse seems like a super accepting place, and as a consequence nobody would care about trans status or treat anybody differently.

Yet forced marriages still a thing.

[137beth]

This.

The stickverse seems like a super accepting place, and as a consequence nobody would care about trans status or treat anybody differently. As a consequence, it isn't really relevant as a character trait. Some minor character might be reluctant to accept a Remove Curse because they like their belt, if Rich feels like tossing the trans community a bone. Otherwise, if nobody in universe cares either way about the topic, nobody will bother to bring it up.

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.

[Lacuna Caster]

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.

I'm actually a little confused as to why the belt of gender-changing would be so generally offensive to trans individuals? I mean, given the costs of hormone therapy and surgical reassignment that many are willing to undergo, a magic item that allowed you to simply jump to the end result might be a godsend. I dunno. Is that 'trivialising the struggle', or something?

Exactly how 'super accepting' the stickverse might be is debatable- this seems to vary with local culture in ways that are not obviously historical- but unless you're talking about simple cross-dressing there is also the question of how accessible gender-bending is. By default the average wage for commoners is one silver piece per day, so magic items and services (alter self? polymorph?) might not be trivial to come by.

[hamishspence]

I'm actually a little confused as to why the belt of gender-changing would be so generally offensive to trans individuals? I mean, given the costs of hormone therapy and surgical reassignment that many are willing to undergo, a magic item that allowed you to simply jump to the end result might be a godsend. I dunno. Is that 'trivialising the struggle', or something?

Pretty much - especially since it was used for comedy the first time round:

2.) Back when Roy put on the belt of gender-swapping, I went to a convention. At that convention, I met a man who told me that he had enjoyed the comic up until recently. I asked him what had changed. He told me that he, himself, was transgendered, and he found the inclusion of the "cursed" magic item offensive, that the idea of gender-swapping should not be used for comedy, and that it had permanently reduced his opinion of the comic.

I was shocked, because it had never occurred to me that anyone would see it as any sort of allegory for real-world transsexuals. It was an overtly magical situation, based on a magic item that already existed in the source material, that was forced on a character with no inclination toward it. In the same way that I would not have expected that one of the characters being paralyzed by a ghoul would be offensive to people who are quadriplegic. But maybe it is. At any rate, the situation surprised me and has, most likely, contributed to my gunshy nature about LGBT issues in the comic.

[martianmister]

For all we know, even characters like Belkar could be trans, since we never seen their past lives.

[RainbowCloakBun]

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.

I don't believe that 'super accepting place' means 'we as an audience see that someone is trans'. Sure, they wouldn't have to hide their trans status, but they also wouldn't have to advertise it. In a truly neutral world, it would just be a feature about someone, like their hair color, and whether you learn it or not wouldn't matter.

Because of the fact that, unlike hair color, this feature is one that theoretically exists only as an event that has happened to you (along the lines of "I saw the president in person"), the only way you would know it is if they told you. And if there's no plot-relevant or character-building reason to say it, I don't believe anyone will say it, and no one will be any the wiser.

Following that, I don't think it's likely to be plot-relevant or character building. Character building is an attempt to distinguish them from other people, and I frankly don't see "I used to be a man" as something that tells you anything about who they are. Plot-relevancy opens up a whole can of worms that I don't think the giant would prefer to go into, and so unless he decides to use it as a way to directly appeal to some readers, I don't find it very likely that we will see anyone who, within the story, is directly stated to be trans.

[The Pilgrim]

In a world where polymorphing magic is on the table, transgender issues are bound to be less an issue than in our world.

[Dr.Zero]

Yet forced marriages still a thing.

Agreed, more or less: I don't think it is a matter of "the world being super accepting...", like a world where everyone is free to be what one likes, but more the author giving for granted that in the stickverse sexuality (as ethnicity) is a minor issue, bordering on non-existent one. Which is kinda justified because...

In a world where polymorphing magic is on the table, transgender issues are bound to be less an issue than in our world.

...this.
Heck, for what we know, maybe the ogre wore that belt on purpose.

[Lacuna Caster]

In a world where polymorphing magic is on the table, transgender issues are bound to be less an issue than in our world.

...this.
Heck, for what we know, maybe the ogre wore that belt on purpose.

Again, this depends on exactly how hi or lo-magic ootsverse generally is. Something that might be trivial for mid-level PCs and affordable for wealthy aristocrats could be borderline-miraculous for the bulk of commoners. (I mean, logically, if 5th-level magic is generally available, merchants should be teleporting everywhere rather than bothering with ships and wagons, and you don't really see that in OOTS.)

[Kish]

If the stickverse is a "super accepting place," then we should be more likely to hear about trans characters, because trans characters would not have to work extra hard to hide their trans status.

However, in light of the level of magic involved, there's no reason trans characters would need to actively hide it. Nearly every character on the comic could easily have been born with different anatomy than they have now, and the readers would never know it if they didn't spell it out.

[ArkenBrony]

For all we know, just about any minor character could be trans. And since it's not something that comes up in a casual conversation, we'll never know.

Does it really matter to the story if we never see a confirmed trans character? I think not.

I think it's an important point to make that the existance of headcannons does not make a piece of fiction automatically a haven for representation. what I'm saying isn't that there could be trans people in the ootsverse, this isn't a headcannon comment, I'm saying that I believe that rich could include representation for the trans community even though he made some mistakes in the past.

that opinion that it doesn't matter if we see a confirmed trans character sucks. cause representation is really important. seeing someone in media who you can look at and say, "wow, they're like me and also awesome, maybe I'm awesome too"

as i said in the original post, I don't blame rich for being gunshy, and I appreciate that he doesn't want to continue making mistakes, or doesn't know how to change what's been done, alls i'm saying is that i think it's ok to show a side character is trans just to show solidarity and representation.

I mean, V and Inky are Genderqueer.

that's a super good point. I love that they are who they are, that feeds into my love of the comic. but that's not what I meant.

However, in light of the level of magic involved, there's no reason trans characters would need to actively hide it. Nearly every character on the comic could easily have been born with different anatomy than they have now, and the readers would never know it if they didn't spell it out.

there can always be reasons why not to do it, doesn't change the fact that inclusion would be cool.

[The Pilgrim]

Again, this depends on exactly how hi or lo-magic ootsverse generally is. Something that might be trivial for mid-level PCs and affordable for wealthy aristocrats could be borderline-miraculous for the bulk of commoners. (I mean, logically, if 5th-level magic is generally available, merchants should be teleporting everywhere rather than bothering with ships and wagons, and you don't really see that in OOTS.)

It doesn't matters if it is available for commoners, as long as it is for the people with the power and money to develope and mantain the cultural framework of their societies.

In such a world, being a transgender may be an issue for a commoner, because said commoner lacks the resources to get the proper magics. But not because being transgender itself is an issue. The traditions of that society have already become used to see wealthy people change genders at will.

[Rrmcklin]

On the whole gender switching belt, wasn't there a whole thing about how you couldn't take it off and it had to be magically removed? Pretty sure that'd be an issue in real life, even for people who would like to change their biological sex.

As for the question of the thread, yeah, there could be trans character, but the author has decided he's "poisoned the well" on that front. I don't actually agree with that, but it's his decision to make. Just take solace in the fact that he's said in his next work he'll include trans characters in that.

While I get being disappointed it's not in his current work, if you like his writing, that should at least be somewhat reassuring.

But it also kind of leaves me wondering what the point of this thread actually even is?

[ArkenBrony]

On the whole gender switching belt, wasn't there a whole thing about how you couldn't take it off and it had to be magically removed? Pretty sure that'd be an issue in real life, even for people who would like to change their biological sex.

As for the question of the thread, yeah, there could be trans character, but the author has decided he's "poisoned the well" on that front. I don't actually agree with that, but it's his decision to make. Just take solace in the fact that he's said in his next work he'll include trans characters in that.

While I get disappointed it's not in this current one, if you like his writing, that should at least be somewhat reassuring.

But it also kind of leaves me wondering what's the point of this thread actually even is?

The point of this thread was just to say that I don’t think the well is poisoned. I think there can still be opportunities for representation

[RatElemental]

I have to agree, I don't think the giant has ruined anything on this front. I even had a similar situation come up in a game I run recently: The party found a (non-cursed) ring that switches the physical sex of anyone who wears it while its worn. They gave it to one of the character's trans brother (now sister).

It just seems like the obvious practical application of the magic, and if anything the item being "cursed" is a minor inconvenience or even benefit for someone who actually wants the effect. But maybe it only seems obvious to me because of how quickly I'd jump at the chance to have one.

[Rrmcklin]

The point of this thread was just to say that I don’t think the well is poisoned. I think there can still be opportunities for representation

I mean, that still seems pretty pointless than then, if I'm being honest. It's basically preaching to the choir.

[ArkenBrony]

I mean, that still seems pretty pointless than then, if I'm being honest. It's basically preaching to the choir.

Did you just post this to criticize making a thread? Nothing matters, why talk to people, why ever state opinions?

[Rrmcklin]

I mean, I didn't just "criticize" I gave my perspective while also admitting I don't really get why this, specific thread, actually exists.

That's different from "why talk about anything" ever. There's no room for speculation or anything with this.

[ArkenBrony]

People frequently post opinions to the thread. That’s all I’m doing

[Rrmcklin]

You also seem to be getting fairly defensive...

[Rrmcklin]

I have to agree, I don't think the giant has ruined anything on this front. I even had a similar situation come up in a game I run recently: The party found a (non-cursed) ring that switches the physical sex of anyone who wears it while its worn. They gave it to one of the character's trans brother (now sister).

It just seems like the obvious practical application of the magic, and if anything the item being "cursed" is a minor inconvenience or even benefit for someone who actually wants the effect. But maybe it only seems obvious to me because of how quickly I'd jump at the chance to have one.

Pretty sure the curse is from the fact that most people would not want the effect. That there are people who would is more like a happy accident than anything else.

As for whether that trivializes actual trans peoples stories... I honestly can't say, and your opinion is more valuable than mine on the subject.

I believe the reason he considers the well poisoned, was because a trans (ex) fan told him they stopped reading because of the storyline. So, really, all it says that even people in similar situations can react to things differently. Which should be obvious, but, it often isn't.

[RatElemental]

Pretty sure the curse is from the fact that most people would not want the effect. That there are people who would is more like a happy accident than anything else.

As for whether that trivializes actual trans peoples stories... I honestly can't say, and your opinion is more valuable than mine on the subject.

I believe the reason he considers the well poisoned, was because a trans (ex) fan told him they stopped reading because of the storyline. So, really, all it says that even people in similar situations can react to things differently. Which should be obvious, but, it often isn't.

In 3.5 an item being cursed only really means you can't take it off without using special magic. It usually comes with a negative effect hence the curse being used to force you to not just take it back off, but it doesn't inherently have to.

I don't know, maybe my view of the word "curse" is nonstandard too because of how much I used to play nethack. There are some items in that that you want to be cursed when you use them because they have unique and useful effects while cursed.

I am aware of why the giant thinks he's ruined things, and I'm not sure how I feel about the storyline itself. It's been a long while since I read it and that was before I'd fully realized. Maybe I should revisit it.

[Rrmcklin]

Huh, I was not aware of that specific from 3.5. To be perfectly honest, my D&D knowledge all basically comes from this series, and the forums that discuss it.

[The Pilgrim]

On the whole gender switching belt, wasn't there a whole thing about how you couldn't take it off and it had to be magically removed? Pretty sure that'd be an issue in real life, even for people who would like to change their biological sex

Okey, let's clarify something here...

Back there in the beggining of D&D, regarding cursed items, the rule was not that you couldn't remove them, but that your character didn't want to stop using them.

The trick with a cursed sword, for example, was not that it was glued to the hands of your character, meaning he/she had to eat with the other hand and sleep holding the sword. The trick was that you character liked the sword and believed he/she was a better swordsman with it and that it was the best magic sword in the world and couldn't be convienced in any way to stop using it. Unless someone cast "remove curse" on him/her. That was standard definition up until at least AD&D 2nd Edition, if my poor memory serves. (Maybe it was just in Basic and was dropped after it)

Problem was, of course, that players would find a way to justify his/her character dropping the cursed item "by accident".

Hence, the convention that "you can't take off a cursed item". It simplifies things a lot.

Regarding the Belt? In a "real" world it wouldn't work like "you can't take it off". It would work like "you like that belt and want to wear it in all occassions. Of course, you can remove it to take a shower, but you will run to put it back as soon as possible, because the curse makes you truly believe that being of the opposite sex suits you better".

Now, the OOTS being a self-aware fantasy parody, the Giant played the trope straight. That arc would have had to be played very different if Roy had been acting like liking the belt and the gender change.

[Riftwolf]

Thor: right, now all that expositions over, back to Valhalla for you b- huh. I've got a call waiting on your resurrect, Durkon. Looks like I was talking for quite a while.
Durkon: Aye, but at least ye took us to the Astral Plane t' keep it visually int'restin'.
Thor: I mean, I thought it'd take half a book to... Oh well, no matter, off you go, save the world, think about what I've said, all that...
Durkon: *pop*
Thor: OK Minrah, now he's gone, you and me can talk privately. See, in the afterlife, your soul can take on whatever form you want. You just look that way because you remember your old body. But in Valalla, everyone is remade. The old become young, the frail become strong... Even those who've never been at ease with themselves get remade to what their mind always wanted them to be.
Minrah: You mean!?
Thor: normally it takes a while to forget ypur physical self, but seeing as you went above and beyond in my service, I guess I can speed things up a bit.
(Thor hands Minrah a mirror. When she looks into it, her reflection is that of a young blonde male, with full dwarven beard. In the next panel, Minrah is now that male dwarf)
Minrah: I-I cannae...
Thor: (hands Minrah a hammer) You don't have to thank me, Minrah. This is just what I do. Now go join your fellow dwarves in my hall; it's ribs night, so you might want to pick up a bib.

[Linneris]

Just because a fantasy universe has magic items that produce results undesirable for most people but desirable for a small portion of the population doesn't mean it trivializes the plight of these people in real life, any more than healing spells trivialize the plight of people with crippling injuries and diseases in real life.

Full disclosure: I'm one of these people. I transitioned years ago, and it's not that I'm actively hiding it, it's just not something that ever comes up in a conversation, except with people who already know (close friends, family, boss, and my LGBT support group). I mean, why would you ever talk to a stranger about it? Even if Rich wanted to establish an OOTS character being trans, I don't see a way to establish it to the readers through a casual mention, the way Bandana was casually and in passing established as not being straight. And people complained to no end about that, even though such a passing, no-big-deal mention of a same-sex partner is exactly what I personally would expect from the fairly egalitarian world portrayed in the comic. And anything more than a casual mention would be perceived as Rich pushing irrelevant political agenda into the story, almost certainly involving accusations using a three-letter acronym that shalt not be used in a polite and civil discourse.

As for the belt storyline, I have no problem with its premise - a character using a magical sex-changing item as a disguise. I do have issues with how it was handled, especially Haley's stream of misogynist insults and the cringeworthy mention of getting emotional from hormones. But I think Roy's reaction to his predicament was entirely believable given his established personality, and I think Rich deserves credit for 1) using this episode as an opportunity for Roy's character growth rather than just random humor, and 2) Durkon actually asking Roy if he would like to change back, instead of just taking it as self-evident that he would. I have full confidence that if Rich was to write a storyline around that belt today, he would handle it far more tactfully and believably than he did when he was younger and less experienced.

_______
Edit:

Regarding the Belt? In a "real" world it wouldn't work like "you can't take it off". It would work like "you like that belt and want to wear it in all occassions. Of course, you can remove it to take a shower, but you will run to put it back as soon as possible, because the curse makes you truly believe that being of the opposite sex suits you better".

See, if the comic went that route, I'd be complaining, because that would indeed be trivializing a real-life issue by treating it like an irrational whim. Instead Rich went with a more sensible 3rd edition definition. Though even the 3.5 SRD has cursed items that function under the premise of mentally realigning the wearer; the Helm of Opposite Alignment in particular strikes me as something that simply can't exist in OOTS, which treats alignment as innate to one's personality and life experience and explicitly defies the idea that a person can drastically change on the inside in an instant.

_______
Edit 2:

<Thor/Minrah conversation>

An interesting idea, but a problematic one. Even if we accept that the name Minrah is applicable to both genders* and is the name the character is comfortable using, and even if we presume that society forced Minrah to present as female (and Sigdi's level of acceptance is unusual for dwarven society as a whole), I doubt that Thor, as established, would call Minrah's gender identity "that thing you've been worried about for a while that you'd rather I not say out loud in front of Durkon". On the contrary, under the premise presented in your dialogue, the Thor we've been shown would address Minrah as a he right from the start and explain the situation to Durkon.

That, and I think that Thor forcing the change of Minrah's post-mortem self-image would be inconsistent with both the "instant drastic mental changes are impossible" theme and the already-established precedent for one's afterlife self-image taking time to adjust. Incidentally, I wouldn't be surprised if in the OOTS afterlife, newly-dead secretly-trans people would immediately assume their desired appearance, since that's how they conceptualized themselves in life.

* Nitpicker's corner: both genders by the standard of a binary society.