Why are Miko's parents dead?

[Lacuna Caster]

This just occurred to me a few days ago. Why are Miko's parents dead?

I don't mean 'how did they die?', exactly, I mean 'why are they still dead?' Miko was presumably acquainted with at least one high-level cleric that can cast Resurrection, which allows you to revive someone dead for up to 10 years/level- and if she doesn't have the cash for diamonds herself she could probably beg a favour off Shojo.

As I see it, the potential explanations are (1) her parents were killed and their bodies destroyed specifically to prevent revival, (2) their bodies decomposed rather rapidly after death, (3) either Miko or Shojo is for some reason uninterested in raising them, or (4) they are unwilling to return.

Huh. ...Thoughts?

[Darth Paul]

The simple explanation is that they died of old age, like Eugene, which can't be solved by any kind of Resurrection. Quite possible. Maybe Miko was a late child just like Roy.

Or maybe they died in such a way that their bodies couldn't be recovered. (Eaten by monsters, storm at sea, washed away in a flood... I can go like this for a while...) And since Rich has stated that the True Resurrection doesn't exist or at least isn't going to appear in OotS, it certainly wasn't going to be used for her parents.

Also, Miko seems like she took a vow of poverty. She wouldn't readily accumulate 10,000 gp and then use it for the selfish goal of rezzing her own parents. More likely she would donate it to the Guard in the person of Lord Shojo.

I consider the latter most likely. Selflessness is a core principle for the paladin. Begging a resurrection for one's own parents is about as selfish as it gets. She would probably treat this desire like the Jedi in Star Wars- mere family attachments are secondary to her duty as a paladin. (Getting in early with the Star Wars reference!)

[Peelee]

This just occurred to me a few days ago. Why are Miko's parents dead?

I don't mean 'how did they die?', exactly, I mean 'why are they still dead?' Miko was presumably acquainted with at least one high-level cleric that can cast Resurrection, which allows you to revive someone dead for up to 10 years/level- and if she doesn't have the cash for diamonds herself she could probably beg a favour off Shojo.

As I see it, the potential explanations are (1) her parents were killed and their bodies destroyed specifically to prevent revival, (2) their bodies decomposed rather rapidly after death, (3) either Miko or Shojo is for some reason uninterested in raising them, or (4) they are unwilling to return.

Huh. ...Thoughts?

I think it's a simpler explanation; no access to the bodies. It's not like she'd dig up a graveyard, I don't think. Or, if you want to explore (3) more, by the time she had any pull or sway with powerful clerics, she'd figured that a divine reward of the afterlife would be something she shouldn't deprive them off. Probably a little of both.

[mjasghar]

If True Ressurection isn’t going to appear then there’s going to be a problem since Durkon had his body turned into dust

[hamishspence]

If True Ressurection isn’t going to appear then there’s going to be a problem since Durkon had his body turned into dust

Resurrection works on dust:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm

So long as some small portion of the creature’s body still exists, it can be resurrected, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature’s body at the time of death. (The remains of a creature hit by a disintegrate spell count as a small portion of its body.)

You can resurrect someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed.

[The Pilgrim]

(4) they are unwilling to return.

Must really damage your self-steem when you realize your parents prefer to remain dead rather than having to bear you.

[mjasghar]

Must really damage your self-steem when you realize your parents prefer to remain dead rather than having to bear you.

In a world where the afterlife is real and speak with the dead etc and people do go to real paradises - why would someone who has earned their reward want to return?
That was, after all, a key factor in the whole Durkon and his mother and the money thing

[Grey Watcher]

Also, Miko seems like she took a vow of poverty. She wouldn't readily accumulate 10,000 gp and then use it for the selfish goal of rezzing her own parents. More likely she would donate it to the Guard in the person of Lord Shojo.

I think this is probably the main reason, with a side order of Miko assuming their deaths are the will of the Gods somehow. We are talking about a woman who (in one of the print compilation bonus strips) interpreted a mysteriously vanished plum stain on her shirt as a message of divine import reaffirming the righteousness of her self-imposed quest to find an excuse to bring the Order to "justice."

[hamishspence]

In a world where the afterlife is real and speak with the dead etc and people do go to real paradises - why would someone who has earned their reward want to return?

The Giant had a reason:

Except, of course, that you will never improve at any skill you know, never have a say in what happens in the world, never have children if you haven't already, never talk to anyone with a different point of view, never experience any real risk, never visit anywhere else, and never see any friends or family members who did not share the exact same shade of alignment as you. Oh, and you can still be destroyed by evil adventurers, but you never get any better at defending yourself.

And that's the Lawful Good afterlife. Roy is talking about the entire world here, many of whom might be headed for less cushy situations.

Analogy time! If you were to take the National Football League and disband it, forcibly retiring everyone who plays, you would objectively be improving the long-term health prognosis of almost every player as well as giving them oodles of free time to study basketweaving and poetry. And yet every player would resist if they could, because playing football is important to their identity. Sure, they all know they will have to stop someday anyway, but all the more reason to treasure the playing time they have left.

I could easily see people who have "died early" being eager to get back the remainder of their allotted time on the Material Plane - feeling that they have lots of things left undone.

[Resileaf]

Miko's personal code, even above the paladin code she followed in the first place, made her be entirely opposed to gathering wealth for herself. She would have most likely reasonned that raising her parents would have been selfish. After all, she would be using that money to raise her own parents out of sentimentality, while there are countless people who lose their parents each year, and they'll never get the money to raise them.

[woweedd]

In a world where the afterlife is real and speak with the dead etc and people do go to real paradises - why would someone who has earned their reward want to return?
That was, after all, a key factor in the whole Durkon and his mother and the money thing

Because they have unfinished business back on Earth? Or they just want to see their family again, sooner rather then later?

Must really damage your self-steem when you realize your parents prefer to remain dead rather than having to bear you.

Yeah. It would probably give the poor kid massive trust issues, and an inability to properly express warmth or affection towards other people...Wait.

[Gift Jeraff]

And since Rich has stated that the True Resurrection doesn't exist or at least isn't going to appear in OotS, it certainly wasn't going to be used for her parents.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

True resurrection does exist, though, since Dorukan said he had clerics trying to resurrect Lirian.

[woweedd]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

True resurrection does exist, though, since Dorukan said he had clerics trying to resurrect Lirian.

It exists, but it's so rare that it might as well not, unless you have your friendly neighborhood Epic-level foot the bill.

[The Pilgrim]

Yeah. It would probably give the poor kid massive trust issues, and an inability to properly express warmth or affection towards other people...Wait.

Suddently I'm viewing Miko on a whole diferent way...

Guess The Giant was right when he wrote that it was better not to explore Belkar's infancy.

[Kish]

You might notice that while Eugene and Sara tried to have Eric resurrected immediately after he died, it never occurred to Roy to tell him, "So when I get back to the world of the living, I'll get Durkon to resurrect you, so make sure you accept the resurrection this time." It would be well within Durkon's power.

Most people who die in the OotS universe stay dead. Miko was an orphan. She was semi-adopted into the royal family. Resurrecting her parents was never a goal she had. That's not an anomaly that needs to be explained.

[Resileaf]

You might notice that while Eugene and Sara tried to have Eric resurrected immediately after he died, it never occurred to Roy to tell him, "So when I get back to the world of the living, I'll get Durkon to resurrect you, so make sure you accept the resurrection this time." It would be well within Durkon's power.

Most people who die in the OotS universe stay dead. Miko was an orphan. She was semi-adopted into the royal family. Resurrecting her parents was never a goal she had. That's not an anomaly that needs to be explained.

Technically she was put in a monastery for a large part of her life (presumably, since she must have at least 2 levels of monk according to the geekery thread), before she was recruited to the paladin order. I would assume that she was not really adopted in that case.

[Rrmcklin]

In a world where the afterlife is real and speak with the dead etc and people do go to real paradises - why would someone who has earned their reward want to return?
That was, after all, a key factor in the whole Durkon and his mother and the money thing

It was a key factor for Durkon and his Mother because of the specific, unfair arrangement dwarves have. Other people don't have to worry about having a ****ty afterlife even if they've been a good person just because of the way they died.

You shouldn't apply the dwarves way of thinking to everyone else, it's been shown that not all of the people of the world think that way.

[hamishspence]

Technically she was put in a monastery for a large part of her life (presumably, since she must have at least 2 levels of monk according to the geekery thread), before she was recruited to the paladin order. I would assume that she was not really adopted in that case.

She left the monastery at 13.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html

Regarding "adoption" - from The Giant:

Spoiler: How the Paladin Got His Scar

Show

Miko is not legally Shojo's daughter, but he did "adopt" her in the sense of taking her under his wing and mentoring her. As was mentioned in the main comic, she was only 13 at the time, so she would have been living under his roof rather than being on her own. As a result, both Miko and Hinjo were told to think of each other as cousins. As adults, they no longer see each other in that light, because they are not actually cousins and Miko's general behavior in the interim has already brought strain to that relationship. I'm sure they had a big falling out at some point, but that's not what the story was about so I didn't show it. And to be clear, I don't feel like I need to spell this out in the text just so that everyone can feel like all the dots connect.

For comparison:

Hinjo is supposed to be around 15-16

and in the story a point is made of how he's not "come of age" yet.

So, it's reasonable for her to, between 13 and 16, be counted as a minor.

[Resileaf]

She left the monastery at 13.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0209.html

Regarding "adoption" - from The Giant:




For comparison:



and in the story a point is made of how he's not "come of age" yet.

So, it's reasonable for her to, between 13 and 16, be counted as a minor.

Oh, I see. I would have expected that to get those monk levels, she would have had to train as a monk until adulthood. My bad.

[hamishspence]

Oh, I see. I would have expected that to get those monk levels, she would have had to train as a monk until adulthood. My bad.

Keep in mind that in D&D, humans count as adults at 15, and the minimum age you need to be to be a 1st level Monk character is 17.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

Miko is about 5 years older than Hinjo - so, about 20 (maybe a very late 19 at the youngest, assuming minimum age for Hinjo) in Scar.

It's possible (maybe even likely) that she spent the 6+ years between leaving the Monastery, and Scar, in continuing her monk training - even if she wasn't in a "monkly environment" she may still have taken levels.

[Resileaf]

Keep in mind that in D&D, humans count as adults at 15, and the minimum age you need to be to be a 1st level Monk character is 17.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age

Miko is about 5 years older than Hinjo - so, about 20 (maybe a very late 19 at the youngest, assuming minimum age for Hinjo) in Scar.

Good point. Should have remembered to take medieval adulthood into account. That would mean she was already pretty far into her training (I assume that living in a monastery would mean monk training early in her life rather than waiting to get to 15), which would make it natural to continue the training even if she was to become a paladin.

[hamishspence]

That would mean she was already pretty far into her training (I assume that living in a monastery would mean monk training early in her life rather than waiting to get to 15), which would make it natural to continue the training even if she was to become a paladin.

Indeed. it's worth noting that, in Scar, she's still a monk.

(I assume that living in a monastery would mean monk training early in her life rather than waiting to get to 15)

I tend to the view that, for many of the classes, training begins in childhood, and doesn't just take place between adulthood and Minimum Age For Class.

Should have remembered to take medieval adulthood into account.

We know at least that "Coming of Age" is after 15 in Azure City - probably 16 at the earliest.

[Resileaf]

I tend to the view that, for many of the classes, training begins in childhood, and doesn't just take place between adulthood and Minimum Age For Class.

We know at least that "Coming of Age" is after 15 in Azure City - probably 16 at the earliest.

I agree with you. The self-taught classes might be something that starts upon reaching adulthood easily (especially considering some of those, like sorcerers, are innate), but those that require long studies would begin even before adulthood, because to give yourself to such long studies, you'd need to be pretty dedicated about it early in your life.

[hamishspence]

The self-taught classes might be something that starts upon reaching adulthood easily (especially considering some of those, like sorcerers, are innate), but those that require long studies would begin even before adulthood, because to give yourself to such long studies, you'd need to be pretty dedicated about it early in your life.

A good example of Rogues who are probably under 16:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html

[Resileaf]

A good example of Rogues who are probably under 16:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0673.html

Well, I wouldn't exactly call those studies, but point taken.

[hamishspence]

Well, I wouldn't exactly call those studies, but point taken.

The Oliver movie might be a good gauge of how such training might work in a fantasy world - especially a Genre-Savvy fantasy world.

[Resileaf]

The Oliver movie might be a good gauge of how such training might work in a fantasy world - especially a Genre-Savvy fantasy world.

Never seen it, I'm afraid, so I'll take your word for it.

[hamishspence]

Never seen it, I'm afraid, so I'll take your word for it.

Chief thief puts on a coat with many pockets with hankerchiefs, and the trainees have to pick-a-pocket-or-two without getting caught.

Other fiction has its own variants on "thief training" - generally emphasising that such training is hard work.

[Peelee]

Chief thief puts on a coat with many pockets with hankerchiefs, and the trainees have to pick-a-pocket-or-two without getting caught.

Other fiction has its own variants on "thief training" - generally emphasising that such training is hard work.

Like the bell test from TMNT (the good one)?

[hamishspence]

Like the bell test from TMNT (the good one)?

I've only seen the 1990 movie.

But Mercedes Lackey's Take a Thief, in the Valdemar series, definitely used "dummy with bells" as the pickpocketing training device.