Why are Miko's parents dead?

[Rrmcklin]

I can't speak for what other forumites might have said, but my usual talking points are (A) early Miko's behaviour is not 'good by technicality'. It's actual Good. (B) later-Miko's behaviour is crazy and bad, but it is profoundly unclear how it's worse than, for example, Gin-Jun or Tsukiko. (C) Shojo's rationale for almost everything he does is either baffling, cowardly or awful, which makes me wonder how much of this was planned.

I mean, I could quibble with TP's friend- Miko's lecture to the order after the inn-scene invokes divine intervention in ways that aren't strictly justified by the evidence, and I would probably agree that she could stand to put a few more skill ranks in diplomacy. But in a comic where the audience were mostly happy to shrug off Elan's near-obliteration of his entire team (and quite possibly the goblin teens,) certain reactions to Miko seemed exceptionally mean-spirited. And I never cared for the author vindicating them.

(A) I mean, I'd agree with that. (B) I don't think it's supposed to be, because she's not supposed to be evil. (C) I'm not sure how this completely irrelevant to Miko's role in this story, except maybe in a "Shojo sucked, so killing him wasn't really an evil act" in which case, yeah....

[hamishspence]

Agreeing to Roy's suggestion that she evacuate civilians from the Inn while assassins are at large is not the behaviour of someone myopically fixated on chasing evildoers or hogging the spotlight.

IMO that was mostly because it was Durkon telling her:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0238.html

and she respects Durkon a lot more than she does Roy.

[RatElemental]

(B) later-Miko's behaviour is crazy and bad, but it is profoundly unclear how it's worse than, for example, Gin-Jun or Tsukiko, who never get a bolt of blue lightning to the face.

As mentioned repeatedly in the thread where this was discussed, Tsukiko was not a paladin.

[Kish]

And flatly refusing to acknowledge that "cleric of the Twelve Gods" doesn't mean "follows the paladin code" does damage only to your credibility, Lacuna.

[Lacuna Caster]

As mentioned repeatedly in the thread where this was discussed, Tsukiko was not a paladin.

As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread, she doesn't have to be. The onus is on the story to explain why the Twelve would possibly tolerate her atrocious behaviour, and I am not going to write the author's story for him. Until he does, this is still a plot hole.

[Rrmcklin]

As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread, she doesn't have to be. The onus is on the story to explain why the Twelve would possibly tolerate her atrocious behaviour, and I am not going to write the author's story for him. Until he does, this is still a plot hole.

Haven't already read your thoughts on the situation, and responses to people responding to them, I don't think "plothole" means what you think it does.

[Aveline]

As was repeatedly mentioned in the other thread, she doesn't have to be. The onus is on the story to explain why the Twelve would possibly tolerate her atrocious behaviour, and I am not going to write the author's story for him. Until he does, this is still a plot hole.

I think the simple fact that the text defines the paladin class in terms of a Lawful Good code, and doesn't do this for other divine classes, is enough of an answer.

[Lacuna Caster]

I think the simple fact that the text defines the paladin class in terms of a Lawful Good code, and doesn't do this for other divine classes, is enough of an answer.

But that's not the point. This would be the literal equivalent of Redcloak joining the sapphire guard and helping them to both hunt down other goblin clerics and slaughter goblin civilians, and the Dark One letting him keep his powers.

The fan-excuses given are that Tsukiko must have special support from some rogue element within the pantheon (Rat being the prime suspect), but this is nowhere explained within the actual story, nor is it clear that a single God could maintain her powers, given the author has stated that azurites in general and Tsukiko in particular worship the Twelve collectively. And it's not my job or any other reader's to jump through these hoops.

[TidePriestess]

But that's not the point. This would be the literal equivalent of Redcloak joining the sapphire guard and helping them to both hunt down other goblin clerics and slaughter goblin civilians, and the Dark One letting him keep his powers.

The fan-excuses given are that Tsukiko must have special support from some rogue element within the pantheon (Rat being the prime suspect), but this is nowhere explained within the actual story, nor is it clear that a single God could maintain her powers, given the author has stated that azurites in general and Tsukiko in particular worship the Twelve collectively. And it's not my job or any other reader's to jump through these hoops.

I think it's because of legalistic crap. Clerics of multi-alignment pantheons are virtually incapable of committing any acts that would cause them to lose their powers, since some god will always be okay with almost anything. And "must not help destroy Azure City" presumably wasn't written into the rules.

[martianmister]

The exact phrasing:


Originally, the inn sequence was conceived as light romantic comedy, with Roy using the belt to try to learn more about Miko in "girl talk" before finding out that it couldn't be removed. By the time strip 223 rolled round though, it was obvious to me that "light romantic comedy" was not what Miko was about. In fact, it was clear that she and Roy were completely incompatible.

Whenever I wrote her lines of dialogue, they came out far ruder and harsher than I had expected, and I saw the character evolve into a far harsher person before my eyes. There was no way to undo some of her rudeness from previous strips, so the solution was to have the other characters react to her poor manners appropriately - including Roy, who had started out giving her the benefit of the doubt because he was physically attracted to her.

So instead of the inn sequence being the story of how Roy tried to woo Miko and failed, it's the story of how Roy realised that Miko was not worth his efforts.

If this second story arc is really Roy's journey of self-discovery, this next section is the part where Roy learns he needs to let go of his old hang-ups, particularly about men and women, and to realize via a changed perspective that Miko was not who he imagined her to be.

This looks consistent with what I wrote before:

Okay, this probably would be a controversial post, but I had to say it:

I think Rich originally planned Miko to be a much more sympathic character, not the "evil paladin"/Javert rip-off she ends up. Maybe even as a new member for the Order. But then, he somehow failed, and Miko, as a character, came out wrong. She has seen by a big part of the forum as a character less sympathic she supposed to be. Old threads shows that there is so much dislike regarding Miko as a character, bordering on hate on so many cases. I know that Rich said many times that forum discussion had no impact on his writing, but still, we've seem that's not 100 percent the case, especially regarding Rich's "old-shames" about Roy's sex-change and Haley's speech. So, I think Rich could be affected by the forum's dislike of Miko and decides to change his plans about Miko. And I think I found the exact strip where Rich's plans about Miko has changed:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html

Till that moment, Miko was no more mean than most of the Order. Sure Belkar, Haley and Vaarsuvius dislike her, but it was Elan's calling her "mean" that crossed the line that puts her the antagonist box.

Which is strange, considering how you disagree with it before.

Why? Being a paladin should be hard. It should require introspection to make sure you're walking the right path. It shouldn't have any "get out of Evil free" card that grants absolute knowledge of what is Good and Evil, because that's the surest possible way to get to Miko's "I am the will of the gods, I cannot be wrong" mentality.

Making them unable to be wrong about what's good and righteous and/or Fall as a result of those mistakes is one of the few ways in which 3E-era paladins could possibly be worse. I'm somewhat impressed.

Problem with this is: How hard is it to understand that killing your unarmed and defenceless octogenarian superior is obviously evil? There is a big difference between committing an evil act for the "greater good" and doing something evil on pretext that it's not evil.

[Keltest]

Problem with this is: How hard is it to understand that killing your unarmed and defenceless octogenarian superior is obviously evil? There is a big difference between committing an evil act for the "greater good" and doing something evil on pretext that it's not evil.

Pretty hard, if you happen to be Miko, which is the whole point. She started off as being judge, and over the course of her character arc expanded it to include jury and eventually executioner as well, which is what got her powers revoked.

[Peelee]

But that's not the point.

It really is. That it's an inconvenient point for your argument and you choose to cast it aside does not make it less relevant.

This would be the literal equivalent of Redcloak joining the sapphire guard

No, because then he would be a paladin, which has special restrictions on when you lose your powers. So it's not literal equivalent of that. It's incredibly far from the literal equivalent of that.

and the Dark One letting him keep his powers.

The Dark One, of course famously being 12 gods in a world of 9 alignments, and this able to have conflicting views, ideals, and acceotable practices by worshippers.

Oh, wait, no, the opposite of that.

[martianmister]

Pretty hard, if you happen to be Miko, which is the whole point. She started off as being judge, and over the course of her character arc expanded it to include jury and eventually executioner as well, which is what got her powers revoked.

Problem is, this is not how paladins supposed to work. They're LG, not LN or LE. If Miko supposed to act like Javert, she should have been fallen way before Shojo's murder.

[Lacuna Caster]

The thing to bear in mind about killing Shojo is that Miko could have been 100% correct in all her accusations and this would still have been a gross violation of her code from a purely technical perspective. It's kinda secondary to me, since what she tries to do to Hinjo is much worse, but she's... not exactly wrong about the legal system not being trustworthy. Shojo might well have wriggled out of it if he wasn't dead.

Why? Being a paladin should be hard. It should require introspection to make sure you're walking the right path. It shouldn't have any "get out of Evil free" card that grants absolute knowledge of what is Good and Evil, because that's the surest possible way to get to Miko's "I am the will of the gods, I cannot be wrong" mentality.

I think the Angry GM covered this a while back, but there's actually no specific reason why it should be that hard, particularly for someone in Miko's position. If the Sapphire Guard were a corporation, the Twelve would be the board of directors, Shojo would be the CEO and Miko would be Vice-President.

It is reasonable for the VP to think she must have some special aptitude or outstanding talent in order to be promoted to that position. Is reasonable for the VP to expect that the Board would have some specific plan for her. And it is reasonable to expect the Board to communicate with the VP about whether they're doing a good job or not. This is not irrational superstition or overweening hubris. It's just assuming the Gods are not idiots.

[Keltest]

Problem is, this is not how paladins supposed to work. They're LG, not LN or LE. If Miko supposed to act like Javert, she should have been fallen way before Shojo's murder.

That's assuming a static character who behaves consistently from the moment theyre born (or reach adulthood, if you prefer). Miko was never a particularly pleasant character, but her behavior during her character arc is pretty definitely abnormal for her. Until then she was following the rules without necessarily believing in them, and then she fell when she broke the rules outright.

[Lacuna Caster]

No, because then he would be a paladin, which has special restrictions on when you lose your powers...

You don't have to be a paladin for the Gods to take away your powers. All you have to do is get your powers from those Gods in the first place.

I'm aware there are Twelve Gods with different agendas and goals. I also know that Tsukiko is not a cleric of a single God. She worships all of the Twelve, and whatever mechanisms they use to allow her to remain in a state of grace are never explained or alluded to. Nor am I going to invent some and declare the story complete. That's not my job.

[hroþila]

Sweet merciful gods, are we having this discussion again?!?! And with the exact same arguments?

Lacuna, if you constantly poke at the outer limits of any story, you'll always find there stops being further information at some point. The story (or the part of it pertaining to Miko and Tsukiko) is probably complete.

[Keltest]

You don't have to be a paladin for the Gods to take away your powers. All you have to do is get your powers from those Gods in the first place.

I'm aware there are Twelve Gods with different agendas and goals. I also know that Tsukiko is not a cleric of a single God. She worships all of the Twelve, and whatever mechanisms they use to allow her to remain in a state of grace are never explained or alluded to. Nor am I going to invent some and declare the story complete. That's not my job.

Then why are you causing a fuss about them? They clearly exist, since she isn't a Fallen Cleric, and that's really the only part that's particularly relevant. Whereas a paladin has a much more specifically defined code of conduct.

[martianmister]

That's assuming a static character who behaves consistently from the moment theyre born (or reach adulthood, if you prefer). Miko was never a particularly pleasant character, but her behavior during her character arc is pretty definitely abnormal for her. Until then she was following the rules without necessarily believing in them, and then she fell when she broke the rules outright.

Again, that would be LN behavior to simply following rules without believing them, not LG.

[Kish]

You don't have to be a paladin for the Gods to take away your powers. All you have to do is get your powers from those Gods in the first place.

I'm aware there are Twelve Gods with different agendas and goals. I also know that Tsukiko is not a cleric of a single God. She worships all of the Twelve, and whatever mechanisms they use to allow her to remain in a state of grace are never explained or alluded to. Nor am I going to invent some and declare the story complete. That's not my job.

Nor is it your job to invent a reason why she should fall and declare the story incomplete, but that doesn't seem to be stopping you.

(I expect that, if you respond to this at all, it will be to reiterate how convinced you are by your own insistence that the Twelve Gods JUST MUST unanimously hate to see Azure City conquered. It won't alter anything I just wrote, though, so save your keystrokes.)

[Lacuna Caster]

Lacuna, if you constantly poke at the outer limits of any story, you'll always find there stops being further information at some point. The story (or the part of it pertaining to Miko and Tsukiko) is probably complete.

I am fully aware that the author is most likely utterly disinterested in satisfying my personal curiosity. And sure, Miko's parents are a relatively obscure point within the corpus. But Tsukiko and Miko themselves were present in the story for hundreds of strips and had quite significant impacts on key events therein, and Gin-Jun is not entirely a bit player either. Expecting their common employers to have some baseline coherent motives is hardly 'poking at the outer limits of the story'.

Then why are you causing a fuss about them? They clearly exist, since she isn't a Fallen Cleric, and that's really the only part that's particularly relevant....

Well, geez, why doesn't the comic just skip ahead to the page where Roy cuts up Xykon, because that's the only part that's particularly relevant? You could leave the rest to the audience's imagination, because the methods for how he gets from A to B must clearly exist, and that's all that matters.

[B. Dandelion]

This looks consistent with what I wrote before:

Okay, this probably would be a controversial post, but I had to say it:

I think Rich originally planned Miko to be a much more sympathic character, not the "evil paladin"/Javert rip-off she ends up. Maybe even as a new member for the Order. But then, he somehow failed, and Miko, as a character, came out wrong. She has seen by a big part of the forum as a character less sympathic she supposed to be. Old threads shows that there is so much dislike regarding Miko as a character, bordering on hate on so many cases. I know that Rich said many times that forum discussion had no impact on his writing, but still, we've seem that's not 100 percent the case, especially regarding Rich's "old-shames" about Roy's sex-change and Haley's speech. So, I think Rich could be affected by the forum's dislike of Miko and decides to change his plans about Miko. And I think I found the exact strip where Rich's plans about Miko has changed:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0231.html

Till that moment, Miko was no more mean than most of the Order. Sure Belkar, Haley and Vaarsuvius dislike her, but it was Elan's calling her "mean" that crossed the line that puts her the antagonist box.

Which is strange, considering how you disagree with it before.

Those particular quotes are consistent, but your analysis is not consistent with the quote hamishpence linked the first time he disagreed with you.

Everything from the point where Miko drags the Order to Azure City in chains in #251 is more-or-less exactly what was always going to happen, with only some tone changed. Miko, and only Miko, was intended to kill Shojo, fall from grace, and ultimately destroy the Azurite gate. No one else was ever considered for this role, and this role was assigned to her from before her first appearance in #200. It was the entire narrative purpose of her character. Of course, I couldn't SAY that in the notes to Paladin Blues, because none of that had happened yet. There was never an intention for there to be a relationship with Roy, merely a few clumsy attempts on Roy's part to start one, followed by a rebuff and the Order's capture. Miko was always a "villain", and I did not intend for Roy to have a long-running relationship with a villain, merely to make her an appealing enough antagonist that some people were rooting for her.

You wrote before that Miko may have been intended from the beginning as something other than an evil paladin, even a possible member of the Order. But the Giant has said that he always meant for her to fall from grace and destroy the Gate. He didn't initially plan to have her as being so harsh beforehand, and he changed Roy's reaction to her so that he rejected her outright, but he otherwise left her role intact from his original plan.

[Keltest]

I am fully aware that the author is most likely utterly disinterested in satisfying my particular curiosity on this point. And sure, Miko's parents are a relatively obscure point within the corpus. But Tsukiko and Miko themselves were present in the story for hundreds of strips and had quite significant impacts on key events therein, and Gin-Jun is not entirely a bit player either. Expecting their common employers to have some baseline coherent motives is hardly 'poking at the outer limits of the story'.


Well, geez, why doesn't the comic just skip ahead to the page where Roy cuts up Xykon, because that's the only part that's particularly relevant? You could leave the rest to the audience's imagination, because the methods for how he gets from A to B must clearly exist, and that's all that matters.

This isn't the story of how Tsukiko became a mystic theurge though.

[Peelee]

I think the Angry GM covered this a while back, but there's actually no specific reason why it should be that hard, particularly for someone in Miko's position. If the Sapphire Guard were a corporation, the Twelve would be the board of directors, Shojo would be the CEO and Miko would be Vice-President.

Except Hinjo is the VP is this analogy, not Miko. So....

[Lacuna Caster]

Except Hinjo is the VP is this analogy, not Miko. So....

No. Once Shojo died, Hinjo would be CEO and Miko would (ordinarily) remain VP. But at the time of introduction, Miko, not Hinjo, is both the highest-ranking and most powerful paladin of the guard.

[Rrmcklin]

Working under Lacuna Caster's line of reasoning, I'd think they'd be asking why the Twelve Gods didn't send Tsukiko a message to try and sabotage the Plan instead of harping on them not revoking her clerical powers.

Not that I think them not doing that is some huge plot hole either.

[RatElemental]

Working under Lacuna Caster's line of reasoning, I'd think they'd be asking why the Twelve Gods didn't send Tsukiko a message to try and sabotage the Plan instead of harping on them not revoking her clerical powers.

Not that I think them not doing that is some huge plot hole either.

As per Redcloak, short of using spells specifically for it (and even then most of the time you just get one of their agents) or going to meet them in person like Durkon currently is, the only communication between cleric and deity is whether they're still getting spells or not.

[Peelee]

No. Once Shojo died, Hinjo would be CEO and Miko would (ordinarily) remain VP. But at the time of introduction, Miko, not Hinjo, is both the highest-ranking and most powerful paladin of the guard.

So Vice President is a meaningless position, and may as well be Assistant to the Regional Manager, and all that that implies? I'm not sure thar helps your argument.

You don't have to be a paladin for the Gods to take away your powers. All you have to do is get your powers from those Gods in the first place.

You seem to be arguing a position I did not take. Let's say "loss of powers" is like getting fired - you know, stick with the corporate analogy, why not? Miko's contract has WAY more things she can be fired for than Tsukiko. In fact, Tsukiko only has one condition for termination, that the board be unanimous in firing her. So if Miko takes five bucks from the company coffers while Tsukiko embezzled millions, one board member can still keep Tsukiko from being fired while Miko is inarguably in violation of her contract, because Miko explicitly asked for that contract and Tsukiko explicitly didn't.

[martianmister]

Those particular quotes are consistent, but your analysis is not consistent with the quote hamishpence linked the first time he disagreed with you.



You wrote before that Miko may have been intended from the beginning as something other than an evil paladin, even a possible member of the Order. But the Giant has said that he always meant for her to fall from grace and destroy the Gate. He didn't initially plan to have her as being so harsh beforehand, and he changed Roy's reaction to her so that he rejected her outright, but he otherwise left her role intact from his original plan.

I don't think there is much difference, as my main point was that Miko was not suppose to be LE paladin. I'm not sure what kind of "fall from grace" Rich originally planned for her, but it's puzzling, considering her being less mean in the original draft.

Except Hinjo is the VP is this analogy, not Miko. So....

Not really, Hinjo would be the president of the company.

[Lacuna Caster]

So Vice President is a meaningless position, and may as well be Assistant to the Regional Manager...

I don't know where you're getting this impression. It's precisely because Miko is in a position of considerable responsibility that one would expect the Gods to talk to her now and then.

...Tsukiko only has one condition for termination, that the board be unanimous in firing her.

Which would (A) make the board look like idiots, and (B) is never is alluded to in any form. So no, I'm not going to pretend this isn't a problem.

As per Redcloak, short of using spells specifically for it (and even then most of the time you just get one of their agents) or going to meet them in person like Durkon currently is, the only communication between cleric and deity is whether they're still getting spells or not.

Yeah, but there are so many holes in this. All the Gods presumably talk to their followers to set up the Godsmoot, Hel communicates with Durkula, Thrym with his giants and Odin via prophecy, Hilgya gets a tipoff from Loki, the Oracle gives out divine revelations like popcorn, Sangwaan got quasi-regular visions, and Jirix is raised with divine intel from the Dark One. It doesn't appear to be massively difficult to find loopholes for whatever arcane arrangements the Gods have in place about parcelling out information to followers.