Got a Real-World Weapon, Armor or Tactics Question? Mk. XXVII

[Mendicant]

What additional technological advancements are absolutely necessary for a steel-producing premodern society to be able to make stainless steel? Are there technical/manufacturing obstacles to alloying in chromium etc. beyond what you'd need to make quality steel, or is it more just a matter of knowing what that this particular alloy will get you rust-resistant steel? Are there any primitive stainless steel precursors known?

[hymer]

What additional technological advancements are absolutely necessary for a premodern society to be able to make stainless steel? Are there technical/manufacturing obstacles to alloying in chromium etc. beyond what you'd need to make quality steel, or is it more just a matter of knowing what that this particular alloy will get you rust-resistant steel? Are there any primitive stainless steel precursors known?

I don't know the specifics, but I'll get you started:
The idea that chromium can be used to prevent deterioration in metal is pretty old. The Chinese knew it BCE, and used it to coat the bronze weapons of terracotta warriors.
I think that one problem isn't just technological. It's that stainless steel makes a poorer edged weapon. The first stainless steels (19th century) were really brittle. Even today, stainless steel has trouble with the edges that normal carbon steel is capable of.

As for the exact way to generate low-chromium steel alloys, I am well beyond my depth.

[Mendicant]

I don't know the specifics, but I'll get you started:
The idea that chromium can be used to prevent deterioration in metal is pretty old. The Chinese knew it BCE, and used it to coat the bronze weapons of terracotta warriors.
I think that one problem isn't just technological. It's that stainless steel makes a poorer edged weapon. The first stainless steels (19th century) were really brittle. Even today, stainless steel has trouble with the edges that normal carbon steel is capable of.

Yeah, this is pushing the brief of this thread a bit since I'm not really interested in weapons here so much as some signifiers for a society that's still clearly pre-modern and pre-industrial but has metalworking capabilities that are beyond what people were doing in, say, the fourteenth century. They don't need to be using it for weapons, but it'd be worth it to know if it could be made on a scale large enough to be useful in real applications or if it'd be more of a curiosity like Napoleon's aluminum cutlery.

[Pauly]

What additional technological advancements are absolutely necessary for a steel-producing premodern society to be able to make stainless steel? Are there technical/manufacturing obstacles to alloying in chromium etc. beyond what you'd need to make quality steel, or is it more just a matter of knowing what that this particular alloy will get you rust-resistant steel? Are there any primitive stainless steel precursors known?

Stainless steel is a very poor material, with one overwhelming advantage, it rusts very slowly. Without going all metallurgical it forms much larger steel crystals than carbon steel. Which reduces its edge holding ability, it’s ability to flex, it’s homogeaniality. As far as I’m aware it’s not used in construction even now.

It wasn’t until after WW2 that we got good enough at it’s production for it to become a widespread material.

[Pauly]

Yeah, this is pushing the brief of this thread a bit since I'm not really interested in weapons here so much as some signifiers for a society that's still clearly pre-modern and pre-industrial but has metalworking capabilities that are beyond what people were doing in, say, the fourteenth century. They don't need to be using it for weapons, but it'd be worth it to know if it could be made on a scale large enough to be useful in real applications or if it'd be more of a curiosity like Napoleon's aluminum cutlery.

For a pre-modern society, the question is why bother? It’s easy to maintain carbon steel if you are using it daily. Which is essentially what happened with pre-modern societies - you had one knife and you used it for everything. If you were rich enough not to have to use it daily you paid a servant to oil it and look after it.

You only run into problems if you leave it around in moist conditions for a couple of days.

[The Jack]

Is there any "fantasy-plausible" way for an aquatic civilization to naturay evolve (rather than being created/transformed by a deity, for example).

Without access to fire, would they even be able to reach intelligence/civilization similar to humans?

Intelligence? Yes. But the means to take advantage of it? Eh... Depends on the arms they've got.

They could build basic structures and farm. They can appreciate art. Provided good arms they can craft basic tools and increase the potential of farms/art. They could write, and that's the level of humans right there. Give them all the culture you want.


At best, they could work with copper,bronze, silver and gold, though how they'd come to the conclusion that they can do that is unknown (perhaps surface trade?) These metals can be melted and cast which makes them manageable underwater (from a distance) They're also very resistant to rust.
They're never going to be using steel unless they trade for steel with a stainless coating or rise against the surface world.
Electricity might be developed. They've got plenty of inspiration, but what they do with it will likely be more limited due to the increased dangers.
I don't think computer science would ever be developed underwater, but they could maybe adopt the idea and try to get it to work underwater/in water proof stuff, maybe improve on it when they've got the groundwork.

Essentially they're stuck in the bronze age. Maybe something like textiles might advance under water, but to move beyond they need surface intervention.

[SleepyShadow]

In general muskets tended to be extremely powerful weapons in dense forests, hilly terrain, etc. plenty of cover to use while reloading and the rough ground makes it harder to quickly charge into melee. The fact that the forest itself is the enemy though probably negates that to a large extent.

I think the best bet if possible would probably be to try a surprise assault. Approach in the dark as silently as possible then rush the enemy positions doing as much damage as possible with short-range gunfire and grenades before continuing to press in with melee weapons in order to take advantage of the enemy's surprise, fear, and confusion.

Good idea. Most of the main team can see in the dark, and IIRC the druid cultists cannot. A night attack would give us the edge we need.

Burning shrubs and undergrowth in particular is going to be problematic. Natural forests routinely have greater moisture in them than can be sufficiently freed by the available fuel. That's why self-sustaining forest fires only usually occur during droughts. These guys are going to need outside fire fuel (or magic).

I would suggest a different tact. Attack supply lines, or their information sources, or their communication with the world outside their little forest enclave. If they are totally 100% self sufficient, they can probably hole up indefinitely, but then you've take away their ability to affect anything, and presumably they care about something out there elsewhere. That will make them take the battle to you and put it on your terms (provided you determine how they will eventually counterattack and can prepare for it).

Darn. I hadn't really thought about the moisture in the woods. I don't know how much lamp oil the locals are willing to sell us, but I'm going to guess it's not enough lol. I don't think the druids have any supply lines we can attack, but I know they're getting fed information. They're planning to attack a small fortress, but my group would have to cross through enemy territory to get there. Hopefully we'll be able to make it in time.

You go guerrilla warfare in a forest against a forest and you're going to lose.

You make a very compelling argument

[jjordan]

Plausible substitutes for steel in weapons and armor? I've got a group that can't be around ferrous metals. So, accepting that steel is the best solution and other solutions will be sub-optimal, I'm looking at substitutes that are the best sub-optimal solutions.

For weapons I'm thinking:
-Bronze
-Bronze-Titanium alloy

For armor I'm thinking:
-Bronze-Titanium alloy
-Aluminum-Titanium alloy

Other thoughts?

[Lemmy]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

A race of humanoids evolved from cephalopods that comunicates through bioluminesce and uses bronze-age weapons and armor sounds like the way to go... After they reach a certain stage of development, I suppose they could also use magic to forge metal. I wonder how they would communicate with other races (since most creatures wouldn't be able to talk in bio-luminescence, even if they somehow compreheend it... And the octo-people probably wouldn't be able to hear very well outside water).

Another idea might be some dolphin-like merpholk... But that doesn't sound as cool as the octopus-people.

[Brother Oni]

Plausible substitutes for steel in weapons and armor? I've got a group that can't be around ferrous metals. So, accepting that steel is the best solution and other solutions will be sub-optimal, I'm looking at substitutes that are the best sub-optimal solutions.

Other thoughts?

What technology level and what sort of threats are they facing? Titanium suggests at least a modern day level of tech, so kevlar with ceramic plates for protection against firearms seems perfectly fine.

If it's more ancient tech, then going with bronze would put them on par with moderate grade iron weapons and weapons - only exception would be firearms as bronze expands/contracts more than iron/steel with temperature changes.

A race of humanoids evolved from cephalopods that comunicates through bioluminesce and uses bronze-age weapons and armor sounds like the way to go...

Note they won't be able to use bronze itself, since that requires melting copper, tin and other elements together, none of which is possible underwater.

Inter-species communication could be handled by sign language or one of the most ancient technologies of civilisation: writing.

Bonus marks if the cephalopod-folks speak/write like the Elcor from Mass Effect, since their subtleties in bioluminescence communication is lost on other peoples.

[Lemmy]

Note they won't be able to use bronze itself, since that requires melting copper, tin and other elements together, none of which is possible underwater..

Ah... Indeed. Well, if they can reach a certain point of development on their own, that opens the way to trade. Prior to inter-racial contact, they could make buildings, armor and weapons out of reefs, bone, shells, rocks, etc.

Inter-species communication could be handled by sign language or one of the most ancient technologies of civilisation: writing..

...
I can't believe I promptly came up with sign language, telepathy, magic, complex translator devices... And somehow forgot about writing. -.-'

Bonus marks if the cephalopod-folks speak/write like the Elcor from Mass Effect, since their subtleties in bioluminescence communication is lost on other peoples.

When I read the word "bioluminescence", I immediately thought of the Elcor as well. They're a good starting place to take some ideas from.

Now I gotta think of what they would look like, give them a humanoid(-ish) torso and head (limbs can be downright weird) and figure out how they reproduce (and if there's any sexual dimorphism) and maybe what kind of clothes, if any, they'd wear... I already know where they'll live in my setting, so I can figure out what they eat. I think I'll make a note that their digestive system is really efficient, thus compensating for their inability to use fire to cook their food.

[The Jack]

A human torso/head is poor for underwater.

You're looking for something seal-like, octapus like, or you can go for the natural armour crustacean/turtle kinda stuff.

[Brother Oni]

Now I gotta think of what they would look like, give them a humanoid(-ish) torso and head (limbs can be downright weird) and figure out how they reproduce (and if there's any sexual dimorphism) and maybe what kind of clothes, if any, they'd wear... I already know where they'll live in my setting, so I can figure out what they eat. I think I'll make a note that their digestive system is really efficient, thus compensating for their inability to use fire to cook their food.

If you're interested in using octopus folk, you may find this speculative biology thread of some use.

As an alternative to making their digestive system more efficient, you could just have them eat less at any one sitting, if I'm reading this paper correctly (haven't finished it yet, so my conclusions may change).

[The Jack]

Hypothetical question, don't expect this thread to pop up in an investigation.
You need to murder some tough dudes with either common tools or weapons that could look like common tools (IE a hammer with an unusually long handle). What's the best balance of lethality and inconspicuous?



On another -TrustMeI'mNotGonnaKillPeople- note;

If someone wanted to learn to shoot or experience a wide variety of firearms, what's the cheapest options they can go with? I understand .22lr are very cheap and some swear they're great for new shooters as the low recoil means you can focus on trigger discipline and the like and build up good habbits. I've also heard 7.62x54r is was and mosins were extremely cheap till recently, is there anything that's still cheap from a surplus wave?

Let's say you wanted to learn pistols, revolvers (single or dual action? whatever covers you the most?) , bolt actions, semi auto rifles (like ARs), pump shotguns. Let's say you're trying to get the most out of the least money you can spend (because you need the money for that long life you plan to live...)

Let's say I'm a young vampire, who's an expert but poor, teaching elders who hasn't touched a gun since matchlocks were in their early days.
(also, if I ever get the money to visit the US in the future, my plan is mostly guns and food so...)

[Brother Oni]

Hypothetical question, don't expect this thread to pop up in an investigation.
You need to murder some tough dudes with either common tools or weapons that could look like common tools (IE a hammer with an unusually long handle). What's the best balance of lethality and inconspicuous?

Time period and culture? Most of the exotic Japanese martial arts weapons derived from farming implements since that's all they had left after the Edo period sword hunts.

Modern day, workman tools. A flat head screwdriver can be sharpened quite easily without revealing its purpose and its shape makes it ideal for slipping in between the rib bones.
I hear linoleum knives are also quite common.

I'll defer to other people on the firearms as it seems you're interested in US culture and UK firearm laws are fairly unique compared to the rest of the world.

[The Jack]

Modern, an urban environment.

[Mr Beer]

Hatchets are good weapons, you can't really carry them inconspicuously though. Boxcutters are a legit tool but not easy to kill someone with. I read Sonny Barger's book about his days as a Hells Angel and he said they carried hammers because they're just a tool but you can do some serious damage with them.

I think an axe handle is a good weapon to beat someone down with. It has reach and heft without being too heavy to wield easily. Once they are down, finish them with boxcutters or the sharpened screwdriver suggested above. The screwdriver is probably a good choice for an assassination weapon, if you think you can run up on a target and get some stabs in before they know what's happening.

[Lemmy]

A human torso/head is poor for underwater.

You're looking for something seal-like, octapus like, or you can go for the natural armour crustacean/turtle kinda stuff.

It's decent enough if the neck is flexible and resilient enough to look "up" for long periods of time... And some big octopus eyes.

Besides... It gotta be at least moderately humanoid to play well with the game's mechanics (A heavily modded D&D 3.5/PF hybrid monstrosity, in case you're wondering). I'm thinking the race will have a long "skirt" made of 6 tentacles connected by skin (which they use to swim) and 2 or 4 longer, more dexterous tentacles in place of their arms.

[Pauly]

It's decent enough if the neck is flexible and resilient enough to look "up" for long periods of time... And some big octopus eyes.

Besides... It gotta be at least moderately humanoid to play well with the game's mechanics (A heavily modded D&D 3.5/PF hybrid monstrosity, in case you're wondering). I'm thinking the race will have a long "skirt" made of 6 tentacles connected by skin (which they use to swim) and 2 or 4 longer, more dexterous tentacles in place of their arms.

If I remember my high school biology correctly octopuses have 6 “legs” and 2 “arms”.

For fighting they will use thrust centric weapons. Cutting will encounter much more water resistance. I imagine a round shield they can hide their body behind with spears/thrusting swords working around the shield. Also under water combat is like aerial combat in that it is conducted in 3 dimensions, not 2, so if you’re looking for combat techniques think of WWI dogfights, but I think the advantage will be attacking from the deep, not from above. The dark provides concealment and it takes more energy to swim down than to swim up.

[Lemmy]

If I remember my high school biology correctly octopuses have 6 “legs” and 2 “arms”.

I never knew octopus tentacles had any difference between them. I know squids have two longer tentacles.

I haven't decided if these guys will have 8 or 10 tentacles... Probably 8 just because I think octopus are cooler than squids.

Also under water combat is like aerial combat in that it is conducted in 3 dimensions, not 2, so if you’re looking for combat techniques think of WWI dogfights, but I think the advantage will be attacking from the deep, not from above. The dark provides concealment and it takes more energy to swim down than to swim up.

They are pretty much limited to melee combat... Melee "dogfighting" is a possibility, like some kind of underwater jousting, but if they are carrying shields, they're probably better off staying relatively stationary, considering how much water resistance even a small shield would cause. And because they are locked in melee, I don't think the difference in depth between combatants is enough to cause a significant difference in lighting (specially considering they have eyes adaptes to see underwater and don't live in the super deep areas of the ocean), except in special conditions, so the advantage would still probably go to the one with the "high ground".

[Pauly]

They are pretty much limited to melee combat... Melee "dogfighting" is a possibility, like some kind of underwater jousting, but if they are carrying shields, they're probably better off staying relatively stationary, considering how much water resistance even a small shield would cause. And because they are locked in melee, I don't think the difference in depth between combatants is enough to cause a significant difference in lighting (specially considering they have eyes adaptes to see underwater and don't live in the super deep areas of the ocean), except in special conditions, so the advantage would still probably go to the one with the "high ground".

A domed shield, like the front of a modern submarine, should function pretty well underwater without causing excessive drag. Especially since cephalopods can use water jet propulsion, they don’t use their tentacles for swimming power, more for directional control.

I totally agree about limited to melee weapons. But I can imagine some short range spring/pressure operated weapons, kind of like a spear gun. Although these would operate as extended melee, not true ranged weapons.

Another thing is that if you have the beak in between the eyes to form a face then they could use the beaks to communicate using clicks. Lots of marine animals use clicking for communication. This would give them the ability to domesticate and give commands to cetaceans. (Fish are almost certainly not smart enough to follow commands) Then their language could be clicking - imagine Kalihari Bushman language - for a “Me Tarzan, You Jane” basic grammar, places and numbers language, and the bioluminescence part of their communication being for advanced nuance and emotion.

Almost all free swimming marine predators attack from below given a choice. Their target is silhouetted against the light , and the dark conceals them.

[The Jack]

Bows and crossbows work underwater. Ranges are shorter and I'm not sure about the deep or armour penetration, but you can mitigate those factors with the abundance of poison found in the deep.

[Gnoman]

If someone wanted to learn to shoot or experience a wide variety of firearms, what's the cheapest options they can go with? I understand .22lr are very cheap and some swear they're great for new shooters as the low recoil means you can focus on trigger discipline and the like and build up good habbits. I've also heard 7.62x54r is was and mosins were extremely cheap till recently, is there anything that's still cheap from a surplus wave?

Let's say you wanted to learn pistols, revolvers (single or dual action? whatever covers you the most?) , bolt actions, semi auto rifles (like ARs), pump shotguns. Let's say you're trying to get the most out of the least money you can spend (because you need the money for that long life you plan to live...)

You'd probably be better served on another forum than here, but your basic notion is correct. The proper course of action is to train with a .22LR (which is available in all non-shotgun applications for this exact reason) first, then move to a bigger cartridge. For pistols, you'd move on to 9mm or .38 special, for rifles it would be .223.

[Kiero]

Hypothetical question, don't expect this thread to pop up in an investigation.
You need to murder some tough dudes with either common tools or weapons that could look like common tools (IE a hammer with an unusually long handle). What's the best balance of lethality and inconspicuous?

Are these "tough dudes" humans, or something else more resilient?

What weapons laws are we operating under - are firearms illegal and how vigilant are the authorities/public response?

[gkathellar]

Bows and crossbows work underwater. Ranges are shorter and I'm not sure about the deep or armour penetration, but you can mitigate those factors with the abundance of poison found in the deep.

Er ... yes and no. Bows and crossbows will work underwater, but they will not survive lengthy exposure to water.

This is generally an issue with any hypothetical underwater society: you have to solve the "everything breaks underwater" problem.

[The Jack]

Are these "tough dudes" humans, or something else more resilient?

What weapons laws are we operating under - are firearms illegal and how vigilant are the authorities/public response?

thugs, armoured humans, monsters , but assume the assailant moves across borders so they'd be in a variety of authority groups.

Can I get close to a medieval weapon with what looks like an innocent part of a toolset. How bad would a curiously long-hafted claw hammer look...

It's a very open ended question.

[Vinyadan]

Er ... yes and no. Bows and crossbows will work underwater, but they will not survive lengthy exposure to water.

This is generally an issue with any hypothetical underwater society: you have to solve the "everything breaks underwater" problem.

Can you use live eels as rope for the crossbow? Or do they break under tension?

[Mr Beer]

thugs, armoured humans, monsters , but assume the assailant moves across borders so they'd be in a variety of authority groups.

Can I get close to a medieval weapon with what looks like an innocent part of a toolset. How bad would a curiously long-hafted claw hammer look...

It's a very open ended question.

Why not drive around in a truck which advertises a company that supplies to LARPers, Ren Faires and HEMA groups? Amongst the racks of quasi mediaeval clothing and prop weapons, you have all the actual mediaeval weapons you need.

I live in NSW Australia which has some of the strictest anti-weapon laws around. But go to a Ren Faire type event and you'll see racks of polearms and and dudes walking around in chainmail with swords at their belts. So there's obviously a lot of leeway for this kind of thing, at least until you get caught shanking someone with a broadsword.

[Lemmy]

Er ... yes and no. Bows and crossbows will work underwater, but they will not survive lengthy exposure to water.

This is generally an issue with any hypothetical underwater society: you have to solve the "everything breaks underwater" problem.

Also, there's so much more resistance to surpass, that either the drop in range would be so big as to make the weapon pointless or require so much energy that the shooter would need absurd levels of strength just to get the projectile to fly more than a few yeards.

[Brother Oni]

I live in NSW Australia which has some of the strictest anti-weapon laws around. But go to a Ren Faire type event and you'll see racks of polearms and and dudes walking around in chainmail with swords at their belts. So there's obviously a lot of leeway for this kind of thing, at least until you get caught shanking someone with a broadsword.

Sounds like something straight out of the Highlander TV series, with lots of folks walking around with long coats with swords hidden underneath.

If you have something with a flat crossguard and not overly long, then provided you have a moderately thick long coat (like a greatcoat), you can hide your sword fairly well with a bit of practice (just don't sit down on public transport).

There are also these martial arts carry bags for jo, bokken and other weapons that can be used - I've walked past police officers with mine and not been stopped. I've also had it mistaken for a snooker cue or a fishing rod bag.
While they're not the easiest thing to get the weapon out in a hurry, once you get close to your target, you can just hold it behind your back until you're within stabbing distance.

Spoiler: Martial arts weapon case

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Spoiler: Hidden sword, only less blatant than this

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I've also seen school children on public transport with naginata in a similar carrybag but this was in Japan, so is probably more socially acceptable.