OOTS #1144 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I have to say, I've never liked the "gods need player badly!" trope. If gods need mortal devotion to survive, where'd they come from in the first place?

The answer to that conundrum is scaffolding. When they came into being, they didn't require any of it (say), but they weren't as powerful, in some sense. Then they created mortals, which provided them with all four energy sources. Eventually, they came to depend on these sources to continue to exist.

The usual example is modern society, which utterly depends on electricity to continue to exist. And yet there was a time when there was no electricity. How come that could happen? There was an intermediate phase in which it was a nice-to-have that eventually became a necessary-to-have. Same with gods.

ETA: I do like that this explains how some gods - I'm guessing at this point the elven ones - can survive their original world, but it's a high barrier that most ascended gods can't cross.

Grey Wolf

[GudBelkarIsGud]

I'm not quite sure how I should understand your question. (Also, I'm not an authority on OOTS-verse rules, so the following goes for D&D 3.5)

Gods normally do have a higher hierarchical order than demons (and other outsiders like angels and the like). Demons don't have to be, but can be subordinates of a certain deity in their deific realm (in the case of demons, it would be a Chaotic Evil deity, or maybe one step apart on the alignment chart). But they can also just be subordinates of a Demon Prince like Demogorgon, who doesn't have the power of a god. The difference of power level between demons/devils and gods was the whole point of several D&D campaigns, where it was made clear that some mighty outsiders ascended to godhood by amassing power.

About OOTS comics now, I'm sure there exist planetars and angels and the like in Thor's godly Realm. We might just not have seen them yet. Does this help?

Yes, this helps greatly; thanks! Thor's description of how gods are powered led me to wonder about the fiends we've seen in-story so far (i.e., the ones with whom Vaarsuvius made a Faustian bargain). They were very upfront in how they directly barter with mortals for their souls or have to await final judgement before effecting actions on mortals. By contrast, by Thor's narration, the gods seem to be at least one step removed in the soul-receiving process in that mortals ascend to specific afterlives associated with particular pantheons as opposed to being able to directly trade their souls for any particular favours with the gods. At the same time, the gods have been shown to punish mortals directly (as in the case of Miko Miyazaki, who lost her paladinhood immediately after killing Shojo). That...disconnect? led me to wonder whether god and devils in this universe operate on the same order of magnitude/occupy the same level of space.

[Connington]

Straight from the horse's mouth. As I previously suspected (but only ever said on the r/oots discord), this is not, as Thor claims, a once in an eternity chance. The deity version of the Fermi Paradox has a solution: a great filter that means that if you are a newly raised god and your world is destroyed, you are destroyed along with it.

Thor wants to keep this particular world alive, not because this is the first world where beating the Snarl is possible, but because Hel's "ill-advised wager" keeps her power low, and Thor's relatively high. If this world ends up being the one that persists, said imbalance will remain forever.

Maybe as a secondary goal, but it is a once(ish) in eternity chance. Thor indicates that he's never seen [non yellow-blue-red] quiddity in the countless worlds since the massacre of the Eastern Pantheon. As a god, his memory is perfect about much smaller details (able to recall every individual worshiper) than the emergence of a new pantheon. So unless Thor is explicitly lying, this is something new under the eternal sun.

In theory another mortal ascension with a new color might happen again somewhere in infinity, but Thor doesn't know what the odds or mechanism of that would be, how many billions of worlds it would take, or even if it's possible for it to recur. Thor's been pretty clear that the loss of every world still hits him hard, so it's safe to say that letting a nigh infinite number of his worshippers die while he waits for another infinitesimal chance is completely unacceptable to him.

Hence, it's save this world or bust.

[Forikroder]

Maybe as a secondary goal, but it is a once(ish) in eternity chance. Thor indicates that he's never seen [non yellow-blue-red] quiddity in the countless worlds since the massacre of the Eastern Pantheon. As a god, his memory is perfect about much smaller details (able to recall every individual worshiper) than the emergence of a new pantheon. So unless Thor is explicitly lying, this is something new under the eternal sun.

not every god believes TD1 is a new quiddity and Thor almost killed him before Loki figured it out, there might have been other Quiddities that just got erased before he learned of them

[Shining Wrath]

Maybe as a secondary goal, but it is a once(ish) in eternity chance. Thor indicates that he's never seen [non yellow-blue-red] quiddity in the countless worlds since the massacre of the Eastern Pantheon. As a god, his memory is perfect about much smaller details (able to recall every individual worshiper) than the emergence of a new pantheon. So unless Thor is explicitly lying, this is something new under the eternal sun.

In theory another mortal ascension with a new color might happen again somewhere in infinity, but Thor doesn't know what the odds or mechanism of that would be, how many billions of worlds it would take, or even if it's possible for it to recur. Thor's been pretty clear that the loss of every world still hits him hard, so it's safe to say that letting a nigh infinite number of his worshippers die while he waits for another infinitesimal chance is completely unacceptable to him.

Hence, it's save this world or bust.

Also, note that Thor refers to Hel as "more messed up". It's possible that a non-bet Hel is more powerful, but less malevolent. If you're an actual Good deity, you might be willing to have somewhat less relative power in exchange for Hel being less about the plague and pestilence and more about the death as a part of the natural cycle.

[mjasghar]

I'm not quite sure how I should understand your question. (Also, I'm not an authority on OOTS-verse rules, so the following goes for D&D 3.5)

Gods normally do have a higher hierarchical order than demons (and other outsiders like angels and the like). Demons don't have to be, but can be subordinates of a certain deity in their deific realm (in the case of demons, it would be a Chaotic Evil deity, or maybe one step apart on the alignment chart). But they can also just be subordinates of a Demon Prince like Demogorgon, who doesn't have the power of a god. The difference of power level between demons/devils and gods was the whole point of several D&D campaigns, where it was made clear that some mighty outsiders ascended to godhood by amassing power.

About OOTS comics now, I'm sure there exist planetars and angels and the like in Thor's godly Realm. We might just not have seen them yet. Does this help?

We saw a green face angels when Durkon asked for mass death ward
Demons and devils are usually made from general evil souls plus a few other souls that are kidnapped and tortured - they can join gods afterwards but don’t have to
Most gods let souls keep their form though some transform them (especially if evil or the god is mainly about one race)

[KorvinStarmast]

Nutrition pyramid for gods. Dammit Rich, don't make me laugh that hard when I've cracked a rib.

Yeah, that one got me giggling. (Oh no, Oona killed the nice young cleric. ) Panel 8.

[Fyraltari]

A pot shot at Jack Kirby? Really? Just, just, really?

I'd call it playful ribbing. The Giant has stated before that his Northern Pantheon was closer to Marvel's Asgardians than to the Æsir of Norse myth. This is acknowledging that. And , honestly who doesn't want to be redhead ?

If the God's get energy from dedication (when a follower dies), what happens if they are resurrected? Do they lose that energy? Or not? if not, then gods would be pushing everyone to be adventurers!!

Maybe it only works once and all subsequent death do not create Dedication.
[QUOTE=Grey_Wolf_c;23443180]The answer to that conundrum is scaffolding. When they came into being, they didn't require any of it (say), but they weren't as powerful, in some sense. Then they created mortals, which provided them with all four energy sources. Eventually, they came to depend on these sources to continue to exist.

The usual example is modern society, which utterly depends on electricity to continue to exist. And yet there was a time when there was no electricity. How come that could happen? There was an intermediate phase in which it was a nice-to-have that eventually became a necessary-to-have. Same with gods.[QUOTE]
Or they popped with a reserve.

I do like that this explains how some gods - I'm guessing at this point the elven ones - can survive their original world, but it's a high barrier that most ascended gods can't cross.

Grey Wolf

When you think about it, that's really impressive of the Elven gods' part. Elves typically have long lifespans and low birthrates while goblins typically have short lifespans with high birthrates and yet the elven gods managed to each get more worshippers when their respective worlds (they may not all be from the same one) ended than the Dark One has had until now.

Straight from the horse's mouth. As I previously suspected (but only ever said on the r/oots discord), this is not, as Thor claims, a once in an eternity chance. The deity version of the Fermi Paradox has a solution: a great filter that means that if you are a newly raised god and your world is destroyed, you are destroyed along with it.

Thor wants to keep this particular world alive, not because this is the first world where beating the Snarl is possible, but because Hel's "ill-advised wager" keeps her power low, and Thor's relatively high. If this world ends up being the one that persists, said imbalance will remain forever.

Maybe as a secondary goal, but it is a once(ish) in eternity chance. Thor indicates that he's never seen [non yellow-blue-red] quiddity in the countless worlds since the massacre of the Eastern Pantheon. As a god, his memory is perfect about much smaller details (able to recall every individual worshiper) than the emergence of a new pantheon. So unless Thor is explicitly lying, this is something new under the eternal sun.

In theory another mortal ascension with a new color might happen again somewhere in infinity, but Thor doesn't know what the odds or mechanism of that would be, how many billions of worlds it would take, or even if it's possible for it to recur. Thor's been pretty clear that the loss of every world still hits him hard, so it's safe to say that letting a nigh infinite number of his worshippers die while he waits for another infinitesimal chance is completely unacceptable to him.

Hence, it's save this world or bust.

Indeed, do note that Thor raises the possibility of Purple being lost forever. If that is the case and there are no sixth Essence to tap into then they'd be stuck. That's two "if", sure but why risk it?

[Asmodean_]

... So unless Thor is explicitly lying, this is something new under the eternal sun.

This is the point I was making. Given how much Thor benefits if one of his main rivals is (effectively) put out of commission for the rest of eternity, I personally don't trust him to be telling the absolute truth. Although I don't see any need for Durkon to be more motivated to save the world, making him aware that this situation is not unique, merely rare, seems counter-productive for not much gain.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Excellent explanation for why we don’t see a bunch of recently-risen gods increasing with each successive world (and a food pyramid joke to boot!). The last panel, of course, almost had me burst out laughing. The details about Hel and also the interim time it takes the Snarl to settle down are interesting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

When you think about it, that's really impressive of the Elven gods' part. Elves typically have long lifespans and low birthrates while goblins typically have short lifespans with high birthrates and yet the elven gods managed to each get more worshippers when their respective worlds (they may not all be from the same one) ended than the Dark One has had until now.

Conclusion: when it comes to surviving the Snarl cooling-off period, it is better to have fewer long-lived followers than more short-lived ones. Because, say, the power you provide your god/plane from prayer and dedication grows quadratically with age. The older you are, the more deeply you believe, or something similarly seemingly deep.

There are no rules for this, so plug in the one that makes sense of the data we have. Which, admittedly, might even be completely wrong in this case since we don't know that the elven gods didn't ascend in this world (although Thor's words suggests that there are ascended gods alive right now from previous worlds; I just picked elves because as other's have pointed out, the elves did get a cushy start location [maybe])

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

Doesn’t this imply some gods essentially voted for suicide? I mean the elven gods I think ascended this cycle - so will they survive because they are part of a pantheon?
But then Thor says other ascended (who must have been raised by pantheons) haven’t made it with more followers than the Dark One and there must be less elves than all the goblinoids, and they are shared by more than one god.
So we still have the issue of why there arent many more gods from previous worlds
And since belief shapes image is one of the current gods from pizza universe?
And finally - are there ascended Southern gods? Or even demigods

[hamishspence]

Yeah, that one got me giggling. (Oh no, Oona killed the nice young cleric. ) Panel 8.

That might not be Oona (though it's almost certainly a member of her tribe at least) - since the mask and the hairstyle are different:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1036.html

[Draconi Redfir]

i can't help but wonder if this and some of the past few comics were at least partly made to address the concerns readers brought up upon seeing the many dead worlds. because a LOT of "Where are the other ascended gods" and "Why is the Dark One special" and "Why did the dark one get a purple aura?" have been popping up, and having their questions quickly answered in-comic :P

[KorvinStarmast]

Maybe Loki's motive behind the bet was teaching Hel proper nutrition.

Another reason that he's a failure as a parent.

[Resileaf]

Doesn’t this imply some gods essentially voted for suicide? I mean the elven gods I think ascended this cycle - so will they survive because they are part of a pantheon?

The elven gods are most likely a minority in their pantheon. That would mean that even if they voted no, the majority vote would doom them.

[Fyraltari]

not every god believes TD1 is a new quiddity

That's only the gods who haven't met him in person and do not have reliable second hand account.

and Thor almost killed him before Loki figured it out,

No Thor almost killed him before Loki pointed out that a fourth essence would be the solution for their problems. They don't need to figure out that the Dark One is of a new essence, that is literally all over him.

This is the point I was making. Given how much Thor benefits if one of his main rivals is (effectively) put out of commission for the rest of eternity, I personally don't trust him to be telling the absolute truth. Although I don't see any need for Durkon to be more motivated to save the world, making him aware that this situation is not unique, merely rare, seems counter-productive for not much gain.

Have you considered that some people are not manipulators at heart and can be totally upfront about their motives and actions? Besides Thor does not profit from the Bet, it sends people he cares about to a cruel fate they did nothing to deserve, and if some forumites are right, forces him to push a whole lot of people towards Lawful behaviour when he is Chaotic.

[Shining Wrath]

Conclusion: when it comes to surviving the Snarl cooling-off period, it is better to have fewer long-lived followers than more short-lived ones. Because, say, the power you provide your god/plane from prayer and dedication grows quadratically with age. The older you are, the more deeply you believe, or something similarly seemingly deep.

There are no rules for this, so plug in the one that makes sense of the data we have. Which, admittedly, might even be completely wrong in this case since we don't know that the elven gods didn't ascend in this world (although Thor's words suggests that there are ascended gods alive right now from previous worlds; I just picked elves because as other's have pointed out, the elves did get a cushy start location [maybe])

Grey Wolf

I agree; in some sense, an elven soul is worth more "nourishment" than a goblin one. The one thing that is not clear is the start of the process; how is it that a soul is created? Surely a soul must be imbued with some quanta of energy to exist, but where does that come from?

It is possible that the elven gods wouldn't have made it without the aid of the other gods of the Pantheon. A generous choice, if true. Or do gods get some sort of benefit from a fellow pantheon member receiving worship?

Belief requires the gods to communicate what form they have taken in each world, as I doubt Thor was God of Thunder in the animated movie snacks world. Therefore, before there are any clerics, there must be a time when the gods walk upon the world and teach, which is consistent with a whole lot of mythos found in the real world.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

This is the point I was making. Given how much Thor benefits if one of his main rivals is (effectively) put out of commission for the rest of eternity, I personally don't trust him to be telling the absolute truth. Although I don't see any need for Durkon to be more motivated to save the world, making him aware that this situation is not unique, merely rare, seems counter-productive for not much gain.

Your logic is circular: you think that Thor wants Hel in the current state, so you assume that Thor is lying, therefore he wants Hel to be in the current state.

I find the alternative, that he isn't lying and is genuinely concerned about Hel's diet and would rather the dwarves didn't go through Hel's gauntlet, is more likely the case. Thor has displayed nothing but care for his followers, and therefore I find it extremely unlikely that he is happy he loses some to Hel because of random accidents.

Grey Wolf

[zimmerwald1915]

Thor has displayed nothing but care for his followers

. . . in this scene. The bet could not have happened without him being cavalier about risking his followers.

[Shining Wrath]

Your logic is circular: you think that Thor wants Hel in the current state, so you assume that Thor is lying, therefore he wants Hel to be in the current state.

I find the alternative, that he isn't lying and is genuinely concerned about Hel's diet and would rather the dwarves didn't go through Hel's gauntlet, is more likely the case. Thor has displayed nothing but care for his followers, and therefore I find it extremely unlikely that he is happy he loses some to Hel because of random accidents.

Grey Wolf

Also consider "so much more messed up" - Hel may be less powerful, but more malevolent, in her current form. If you rate both power and evil on a 1-10 scale, is a [power=5, evil=10] Hel preferable to a [power=7, evil=7] version?

[Madwaltz]

Conclusion: when it comes to surviving the Snarl cooling-off period, it is better to have fewer long-lived followers than more short-lived ones. Because, say, the power you provide your god/plane from prayer and dedication grows quadratically with age. The older you are, the more deeply you believe, or something similarly seemingly deep.

There are no rules for this, so plug in the one that makes sense of the data we have. Which, admittedly, might even be completely wrong in this case since we don't know that the elven gods didn't ascend in this world (although Thor's words suggests that there are ascended gods alive right now from previous worlds; I just picked elves because as other's have pointed out, the elves did get a cushy start location [maybe])

Grey Wolf

We do know that Thyrm, at least, seems to think he'll survive the end of the world. Otherwise his whole plan to suck up to Hel and rule with her in the next world doesn't really work. Though I guess it is possible he's just being tricked by Hel and isn't aware of the whole interim period thing.

It's also worth noting that it may have nothing to do with the age of the believers, but just simply how long the god has been a god. Basically, they might have more time to store energy that they need once they are cut off from fresh soul-power.

[hamishspence]

. . . in this scene.

And in every scene where he's arguing loopholes to save souls from Hel.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Doesn’t this imply some gods essentially voted for suicide? I mean the elven gods I think ascended this cycle - so will they survive because they are part of a pantheon?

First, we don't know what the ascended gods voted for - because we don't know of any in the Northern Pantheon (other than Dvalin, who didn't vote) and the votes from the Western Pantheon was aggregated before we got it.

Second, even if they did vote for destruction, they might not be aware of the fate that awaits them. Or they are (justifiably or not) thinking they have sufficient juice to survive. Or they know they will die, but are willing to sacrifice themselves so that their followers' souls don't get annihilated by the Snarl.

But then Thor says other ascended (who must have been raised by pantheons) haven’t made it with more followers than the Dark One and there must be less elves than all the goblinoids, and they are shared by more than one god.

Sheer numbers might not be everything, just a handy comparison tool.

So we still have the issue of why there arent many more gods from previous worlds

No, we don't. The answer is: most don't have sufficient power accumulated to make it. Pick whatever headcanon you want that explains why to your satisfaction, but I'm fairly certain this is all we are going to get on the topic. It is no longer germane to the plot, except insofar as this is TDO's best chance. His Plan won't work. And that is the crucial bit: that is what will give Durkon an "in" to talk things over with RC.

And finally - are there ascended Southern gods? Or even demigods

Seems not. But on the other hand, for all we know, there used to be only 8 gods of the South.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

. . . in this scene. The bet could not have happened without him being cavalier about risking his followers.

Unless someone else made the bet with Hel. Like Loki.

[Resileaf]

. . . in this scene. The bet could not have happened without him being cavalier about risking his followers.

The flashback of the bet being made shows that Thor was drunk as all hell when Loki pulled him and Hel into it. Sounds likely to me that he wasn't being cavalier. He was being drunk. And may not even have been aware of what was happening at the time.

[Fyraltari]

Conclusion: when it comes to surviving the Snarl cooling-off period, it is better to have fewer long-lived followers than more short-lived ones. Because, say, the power you provide your god/plane from prayer and dedication grows quadratically with age. The older you are, the more deeply you believe, or something similarly seemingly deep.

There are no rules for this, so plug in the one that makes sense of the data we have. Which, admittedly, might even be completely wrong in this case since we don't know that the elven gods didn't ascend in this world (although Thor's words suggests that there are ascended gods alive right now from previous worlds; I just picked elves because as other's have pointed out, the elves did get a cushy start location [maybe])

Grey Wolf

I was not being ironic, you know. This is not a plot-hole of any kind.
Here is the explanation, I had in mind: The Elven Gods ascended way earlier in their native world than the Dark One did in his.

Doesn’t this imply some gods essentially voted for suicide? I mean the elven gods I think ascended this cycle - so will they survive because they are part of a pantheon?
But then Thor says other ascended (who must have been raised by pantheons) haven’t made it with more followers than the Dark One and there must be less elves than all the goblinoids, and they are shared by more than one god.
So we still have the issue of why there arent many more gods from previous worlds
And since belief shapes image is one of the current gods from pizza universe?
And finally - are there ascended Southern gods? Or even demigods

Thor says that he has "seen new gods [...] not make it" not [I have never seen a new god make it" which implies some did. As long as you survive one workd you are just as good as the older gods and set for eternity (barring Snarl). The Elven Gods may very well be from older worlds, which would esplain why the Elven Lands are not a desert like the rest of the Western Pantheon.

I find the alternative, that he isn't lying and is genuinely concerned about Hel's diet [...] is more likely the case.

She is, after all, his niece.

[hamishspence]

It is no logner germane to the plot, except insofar as this is TDO's best chance. His Plan won't work. And that is the crucial bit: that is what will give Durkon an "in" to talk things over with RC.

We know Plan B "wait out destruction of world" won't work, at least.

Plan A "use Snarl to blackmail gods" has the issue of the gods being able to destroy the world to stop TDO from doing so.

[Gift Jeraff]

If OOTS is following Astral Plane lore regarding god corpses, I wonder if Xykon's fortress is built from an ascended god who didn't survive the interim period.

[Psychronia]

Okay, that last panel had me bust out laughing.
So the true enemy of gods are...cartoonists? Comic writers? Something like that.

So do you think The Giant made the situation better or worse by portraying Thor like this to up to a million readers?