A Practical Guide to Evil

[druid91]

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We also didn't expect Nauk or Ratface to die offscreen.

As for Cat not knowing if Rumena could beat the Saint.... Well Rumena said it himself when he said she wasn't very bright.

Rumena has had literal Millennia of constant conflict to hone his skills. He's easily the most powerful of the Drow, and lesser mighty were giving even Fae-Cat trouble. Fae Cat had the raw power to take on The SoS, Grey Pilgrim, and the Baby heroes all at once.

Not to mention, just his attitude during the fight. "You scold children with the hand." Sure, his attacks are potentially lethal, but this is a guy who's lived in a crumbling civilization filled with magical murderers for the past few millennia. SoS is the only thing on the field even worth playing with.

Again, they MIGHT be evenly matched, power wise. I doubt it, but it's possible. But much like Cat vs Sve Noc, Rumena has had millennia to hone his power, and wouldn't be alive if he hadn't.

[The Glyphstone]

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Rumena's not used to thinking in terms of Story-fu, though, especially the way Cat does. It's exceedingly vulnerable to writing itself in as the monster in the hero's story by following these stereotypical behaviors, assuming that hasn't already happened, as people have pointed out. That narrative cheatery could be the edge Saint requires to win against it.

[McNum]

I think it was Cat herself who though about how that obsession with vengeance were actually hurting Callow.

In the same way that someone deciding to melt your country with volcanoes by digging straight down is a threat ?
Insane plans are only a worry when they actually have a chance of working out.
This one likely dont. Name one permanent thing Cat has a reasonable chance of doing, that cant be undone in a couple generations by a new villain?

Spite usually isn't smart, but it can feel good.

As for what Cat can do that cannot be undone in a generation, I think it's rather obvious.

Spoiler: Up to Current

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She'll kill the name of Bard. And if possible, she'll break the entire story framework.

Note that I don't say "kill the Bard" because that's not terribly hard. I mean as in kill the concept of the Name of Bard so that no more Bards will appear.

I consider that to be something Catherine stands a reasonable chance of doing. The Accords are nice and all, but I doubt they'll be the endgame for her.

[druid91]

My hard earned InternetBux! Oh no!

[Calemyr]

Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

Spoiler: Interlude: So We Shot Him

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Kairos continues to be a lot of fun. His strategy for routing the Proceran reserves? Pull them out of Arcadia, just 18 feet up in the air and let gravity do the wetwork. He's just fun to watch, especially chiding Saint on the clearly unintentional "mercy" reference. The idea of telling Laurence telling a joke that didn't end with "...and so I killed them all." is kinda comical all on its own. And I still find it amusing that Hakram continues to play the straight man (and admits to enjoying it) while being strung up upside down.

Rozela continues to hold her rank as the most likable Proceran we've met, while the Binder and Slayer lordlings get at least a little more humanization. Viv manages to unsettle the Pilgrim, while Akua manages to unsettle everyone by staying loyal when she has little reason to.

And Cat finally steps on the stage with all the swagger and drama of Sam Vimes. I'm curious to see what her role in the Dead King's arrival is going to be? Observer (he was coming, Cat just gave them some warning), manipulator (she came to bargain with Nesh once again), or instigator ("Do you know how much effort it took to lure his armies this far south this soon?").

This looks like a good time for the interludes to end and all this buildup to start to pay off. We're getting to Hobbit levels of ludicrous with this battle: five armies converging on the same field.

[Forum Explorer]

Beautiful. Simply beautiful.

Spoiler: Interlude: So We Shot Him

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Kairos continues to be a lot of fun. His strategy for routing the Proceran reserves? Pull them out of Arcadia, just 18 feet up in the air and let gravity do the wetwork. He's just fun to watch, especially chiding Saint on the clearly unintentional "mercy" reference. The idea of telling Laurence telling a joke that didn't end with "...and so I killed them all." is kinda comical all on its own. And I still find it amusing that Hakram continues to play the straight man (and admits to enjoying it) while being strung up upside down.

Rozela continues to hold her rank as the most likable Proceran we've met, while the Binder and Slayer lordlings get at least a little more humanization. Viv manages to unsettle the Pilgrim, while Akua manages to unsettle everyone by staying loyal when she has little reason to.

And Cat finally steps on the stage with all the swagger and drama of Sam Vimes. I'm curious to see what her role in the Dead King's arrival is going to be? Observer (he was coming, Cat just gave them some warning), manipulator (she came to bargain with Nesh once again), or instigator ("Do you know how much effort it took to lure his armies this far south this soon?").

This looks like a good time for the interludes to end and all this buildup to start to pay off. We're getting to Hobbit levels of ludicrous with this battle: five armies converging on the same field.

Spoiler: Book 5: So We Shot Him

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Kairos is pretty awesome, and I'm expecting him to throw the Hierach into this situation like a Shaper into a warehouse of goblinfire jugs. That or everything is going well, and then Masego shows up and Cat has to choose between her alliance and her friend.

I don't think the Dead King is literally arriving at this moment, I think she was just referring to the sheer casualties that this battle would cause.

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Book 5: So We Shot Him

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I don't think the Dead King is literally arriving at this moment, I think she was just referring to the sheer casualties that this battle would cause.

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It's certainly possible that it could mean the Dead King/his armies is literally on the way, but yeah, I'm more inclined to think it's a reference to something that is liable to kill them all. Maybe Masego finishing whatever he's doing here? Whatever he's working up to it's probably not going to be safe to be anywhere near it other than in the middle of his warding structure.

[Calemyr]

Spoiler: So We Shot Him

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Okay, I can follow the "This place is about to become a field of corpses" translation to the interlude's end, but I see two ways to read even that, and neither really work.

First version is "You realize the only person who profits if you kill each other is the Dead King, right?". How does that have any more power here than it has the, I don't know, half dozen other times she's made that overture? Procer just got rocked, yes, and Levant is getting hit, too, but are any of them weak enough to finally listen to reason? I don't really think it works, especially since this stand-off was orchestrated by her.

Second version is "You fell into my trap. Surrender now, or Night is going to swallow you all without chewing!". How does this work without becoming exactly what GP thinks Cat already is? This would be a master stroke if she wanted them all dead, but she doesn't. This would be a viable tactic if she was dealing with people likely to fold in the face of certain defeat. None of them are. Heck, GP would take this as all he needs to double down yet again in his faith that she's a monster. And no god knows what how the Tyrant would respond...

How does a "field of corpses" read work out in her favor? It's the last thing she wants, and she's dealing with people who only more belligerent when backed into a corner. She's worked hard to arrange this, so I don't feel inclined to assume she just dropped the ball here. She's got an end in mind, here. Do you see an angle she can exploit?

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: So We Shot Him

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Okay, I can follow the "This place is about to become a field of corpses" translation to the interlude's end, but I see two ways to read even that, and neither really work.

First version is "You realize the only person who profits if you kill each other is the Dead King, right?". How does that have any more power here than it has the, I don't know, half dozen other times she's made that overture? Procer just got rocked, yes, and Levant is getting hit, too, but are any of them weak enough to finally listen to reason? I don't really think it works, especially since this stand-off was orchestrated by her.

Second version is "You fell into my trap. Surrender now, or Night is going to swallow you all without chewing!". How does this work without becoming exactly what GP thinks Cat already is? This would be a master stroke if she wanted them all dead, but she doesn't. This would be a viable tactic if she was dealing with people likely to fold in the face of certain defeat. None of them are. Heck, GP would take this as all he needs to double down yet again in his faith that she's a monster. And no god knows what how the Tyrant would respond...

How does a "field of corpses" read work out in her favor? It's the last thing she wants, and she's dealing with people who only more belligerent when backed into a corner. She's worked hard to arrange this, so I don't feel inclined to assume she just dropped the ball here. She's got an end in mind, here. Do you see an angle she can exploit?

Spoiler: So We shot him

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I think it's a more of a cocky 'we're all going to die in an hour unless we stop fighting'

Or well, basically the first version. Just because they haven't listened in the past doesn't mean she can afford to stop trying.

[lord_khaine]

My hard earned InternetBux! Oh no!

Hah! yes! yes! im rich! filthy rich!

Spoiler: So we Shot him

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Well.. we were told there was going to be a massive breach between Creation and Acadia that would bring calamity.

[Tvtyrant]

Maybe it is just me, but it seems like they could really use a demon-summoning portal cannon against the millions of zombies. Just about everything wrong with the current situation is really Black's fault.

[The Glyphstone]

Maybe it is just me, but it seems like they could really use a demon-summoning portal cannon against the millions of zombies. Just about everything wrong with the current situation is really Black's fault.

Neshamah, IIRC, has control over at least some portions of the Hells - that's where his true domain and mortal servants live. So that could backfire horribly and just give him more mobility.

[Tvtyrant]

Neshamah, IIRC, has control over at least some portions of the Hells - that's where his true domain and mortal servants live. So that could backfire horribly and just give him more mobility.

I thought he owned one of the layers? Does he have places on multiple ones, I don't remember that.

They could also just take the gun to his layer and mix it with a bunch of others, forcing him to withdraw to save his mortal followers.

[Calemyr]

I thought he owned one of the layers? Does he have places on multiple ones, I don't remember that.

They could also just take the gun to his layer and mix it with a bunch of others, forcing him to withdraw to save his mortal followers.

He's a (former) mortal who claimed a layer of hell for his own paradise. That doesn't mean he owns other planes, but it does mean he's already got a track record of adapting to and dominating a plane he is not native to. Not saying it's a tactic doomed to failure, but if there's a target where there's a chance for it to backfire against...

[Tvtyrant]

He's a (former) mortal who claimed a layer of hell for his own paradise. That doesn't mean he owns other planes, but it does mean he's already got a track record of adapting to and dominating a plane he is not native to. Not saying it's a tactic doomed to failure, but if there's a target where there's a chance for it to backfire against...

This is legitimate, and to be fair Black didn't make Malicia make a deal with Nicol Bolas. There are a lot of idiot balls being juggled by the big players, thankfully no one has made a deal with the Chain of Hunger or resurrected a drow goddess of murder or anything.

[The Glyphstone]

Not from the story itself, by from the Comments below:

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When it gets to the point that you’re making new God’s for the express purpose of murdering them, because you’ve run out of God’s to try and murder, it’s time to admit you have a problem.

[Lord Magtok]

Spoiler: Chapter 32 Spoilers

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The god is going to be Larat, right? He's going to get his shiny crowns at long last and then immediately get butchered?

[tyckspoon]

Spoiler: Chapter 32 Spoilers

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The god is going to be Larat, right? He's going to get his shiny crowns at long last and then immediately get butchered?

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Nearly guaranteed, yeah. Kairos even thoughtfully gathered the seven crown(ed heads.) Not sure yet who the 'and one' is going to be, or if this is going to require killing all of the crown-wearers or just them to admit defeat/swear obedience to Larat, but the plan appears to be to raise Larat as a new Fae King, allow that title's natural control of Arcadia to claim and stabilize this chunk Masego broke, and then kill him and/or usurp that control to provide Cat (and while she is going to, of necessity, be bringing the Grand Alliance armies through it, I will be very surprised if the goal of this is to give anybody other than Cat ownership of the end result) with a wholly-owned slice of Arcadia she can gate through reliably and without worrying about getting attacked in transit.

[SlyGuyMcFly]

Spoiler: Chapter 32 Spoilers

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The god is going to be Larat, right? He's going to get his shiny crowns at long last and then immediately get butchered?

Spoiler: Ch32

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Yep! There's even a heroic(ish) 5-man band formed and ready to beat him into bloody pulp. The Grey Pilgrim, The Saint of Swords, The Rogue Sorcerer, The Tyrant of Helike and the Black Queen of Callow. Yeah... that's... that's a whole lot of firepower about to be pointed at our favourite treacherous lieutenant. It remains to be seen how effectively they can work together, but the whole "people from different backgrounds are thrown together by circumstance and have to learn to work as a team in order to overcome some great challenge despite their clashing ideals and personalities" story is an old and well-worn one which I'm certain the Pilgrim is more than willing and able to exploit to it's fullest.

[Lord Raziere]

Spoiler: Riddle of Fault

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I would've gone with the second judge and spared the servant, so I guess I'm not good in the Angels eyes, oh well. or at least, what kind of Hero you become I guess depends on your answer. if he choose the first judge, Hanno would've become a more normal grim judge character who'd be judge jury and executioner, if he chose second he would've probably become a wandering knight errant protecting the weak or rebel, and if he chose the third judge he'd become a peace and mercy type of hero with perhaps a leadership role.

I'm guessing. though that might be just the Choir of Judgement's test.

....why would people be afraid of Mercy Choir? is it one of those "well everyone in life suffers and suffering is endless so the only way to end all suffering is to grant them the mercy of death through some painless angel magic" kind of deals? cause I can see this series writing it that way.

Grey Pilgrim: finally a reasonable hero. I like him, I hope he doesn't die. in one chapter he has already been better about this than anyone else by openly agreeing to stop war crimes. will anyone else hold themselves to this? eeeeeeeeeeh, probably not, knowing this series, but its nice to hope though.

so both Saint of Swords and Grey Pilgrim acknowledge that what Catherine has is not a villain story. hm. so the "Catherine is breaking both moralities to make a new morality/story" theory might be true.

[Aotrs Commander]

...

I really can't - shouldn't - say anything here, except that I really want to hear what you think a good chunk into book four.

[Forum Explorer]

Spoiler: Riddle of Fault

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I would've gone with the second judge and spared the servant, so I guess I'm not good in the Angels eyes, oh well. or at least, what kind of Hero you become I guess depends on your answer. if he choose the first judge, Hanno would've become a more normal grim judge character who'd be judge jury and executioner, if he chose second he would've probably become a wandering knight errant protecting the weak or rebel, and if he chose the third judge he'd become a peace and mercy type of hero with perhaps a leadership role.

I'm guessing. though that might be just the Choir of Judgement's test.

....why would people be afraid of Mercy Choir? is it one of those "well everyone in life suffers and suffering is endless so the only way to end all suffering is to grant them the mercy of death through some painless angel magic" kind of deals? cause I can see this series writing it that way.

Grey Pilgrim: finally a reasonable hero. I like him, I hope he doesn't die. in one chapter he has already been better about this than anyone else by openly agreeing to stop war crimes. will anyone else hold themselves to this? eeeeeeeeeeh, probably not, knowing this series, but its nice to hope though.

so both Saint of Swords and Grey Pilgrim acknowledge that what Catherine has is not a villain story. hm. so the "Catherine is breaking both moralities to make a new morality/story" theory might be true.

Spoiler: Riddle Of Fault

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If he had chosen anything but he did, Hanno would have likely died. Or at least, failed.

The Angel Choirs are all pretty extreme. For example, I'm pretty sure everyone judged by Hanno ends up being guilty.

Close but not quite. You'll see exactly what it means in the Grey Pilgrim's backstory which, well, lets just say quite a people change their minds about him after reading that.

[lord_khaine]

I'm pretty sure everyone judged by Hanno ends up being guilty.

You got that backward. Its people who are guilty that ends up being judged by Hanno.

[Anteros]

You got that backward. Its people who are guilty that ends up being judged by Hanno.

Sorta defeats the purpose of "judging" someone if everyone you judge is always guilty though.

[Lord Raziere]

You guys do have a point: so far from what I've read, Hanno has never flipped his coin for anyone but a clear and obvious villain like Kairos.

which means while he claims to be not using his own judgement, he has to decide when to use his coin, so he is clearly using his judgement on when to defer to the angels.

which I will decide to interpret positively as him being a reasonable guy: you can't flip the coin for everyone or the angels might tell him to kill everyone, since they're so extreme. therefore he flips the coin to determine if a villain can be saved or not.

[Forum Explorer]

You guys do have a point: so far from what I've read, Hanno has never flipped his coin for anyone but a clear and obvious villain like Kairos.

which means while he claims to be not using his own judgement, he has to decide when to use his coin, so he is clearly using his judgement on when to defer to the angels.

which I will decide to interpret positively as him being a reasonable guy: you can't flip the coin for everyone or the angels might tell him to kill everyone, since they're so extreme. therefore he flips the coin to determine if a villain can be saved or not.

You have a point. Hanno doesn't go around judging everyone. It's only during a fight, and one time upon request.

[lord_khaine]

Sorta defeats the purpose of "judging" someone if everyone you judge is always guilty though.

Not really. Not if its used as the final test to confirm that "yes, this guy is past redemption, its not his innocent twin, apply sword here"

which I will decide to interpret positively as him being a reasonable guy: you can't flip the coin for everyone or the angels might tell him to kill everyone, since they're so extreme. therefore he flips the coin to determine if a villain can be saved or not.

Heck, for that matter we utterly lack evidence on the choir actually being extreme.
We dont have any sort of cases where it has been applied to gray cases. The only ones found guilty have been horrible monsters.

[Forum Explorer]

Not really. Not if its used as the final test to confirm that "yes, this guy is past redemption, its not his innocent twin, apply sword here"



Heck, for that matter we utterly lack evidence on the choir actually being extreme.
We dont have any sort of cases where it has been applied to gray cases. The only ones found guilty have been horrible monsters.

Yes we do, it's not in the story itself, but it happen in the story's history. The first time an angel of Contrition was summoned, literally everyone in the city went, well not mad, but were driven by the need to repent that they started a crusade and wouldn't back down for anything. Keys words being literally everyone.

[Lord Raziere]

Yes we do, it's not in the story itself, but it happen in the story's history. The first time an angel of Contrition was summoned, literally everyone in the city went, well not mad, but were driven by the need to repent that they started a crusade and wouldn't back down for anything. Keys words being literally everyone.

Different Choir from Judgement, first of all.

Second of all, its not exactly clear if its really brainwashing or not. that is just Catherine's viewpoint which had been influenced by Black Knight's to a significant extent at that point, not the most unbiased viewpoint ever. we never actually see it successful, therefore we can't actually know what the exact effects are. overall, there are a lot of ambiguities about Angels that I would not truly say we know enough about them to make any good assessments. do we even know all their virtues and all the things that they do?

and what of Praesi killing people and raising them as zombies? is that not worse in a way? it might be possible for those under contrition to go back to normal lives or to come to terms with their sins being shown to them in full, but there is no reversal of being a zombie.

[Forum Explorer]

Different Choir from Judgement, first of all.

Second of all, its not exactly clear if its really brainwashing or not. that is just Catherine's viewpoint which had been influenced by Black Knight's to a significant extent at that point, not the most unbiased viewpoint ever. we never actually see it successful, therefore we can't actually know what the exact effects are. overall, there are a lot of ambiguities about Angels that I would not truly say we know enough about them to make any good assessments. do we even know all their virtues and all the things that they do?

and what of Praesi killing people and raising them as zombies? is that not worse in a way? it might be possible for those under contrition to go back to normal lives or to come to terms with their sins being shown to them in full, but there is no reversal of being a zombie.

Whoops, thought you used Choirs, not Choir

I'd say when 100% of a population goes on a suicidal attack mission, that's it's probably some form of mind control. You are right, we don't see exactly what happens in the one case where it did happen, due to it happening in the far past. In fact, it's even possible that the 100% is an exaggeration, with some exceptional individuals being spared. We have no way of knowing, but at the same time, all the information we've been given points to it being true. And what little we've seen of Choirs points to them being extreme in their actions and thought patterns.

I fail to see how that's relevant to Choirs being extreme.