A Practical Guide to Evil

[Mith]

Was that trick reliable and lasting enough to be appliable here?



Nah that theory is full of holes. It is not impossible that she were using the corse she had on hand as a puppet.
Thats really not very different from the already popular theory that she used it as a left behind decoy to fake her death.

But its mixing other stuff up. The Ashen Priestess died because she became the target of a massive ritual attack made by The Tyrant.
Cat has not had a chance to perform all the ritual human sacrifices to power that ritual.
Cat does not need a ritual to kill someone. She demonstrated that clearly with a much more powerful Fae Noble.
There isnt a narrative pushing towards Cat's death. Because the narrative is currently indifferent to Cat, then it would be wrong to call someone trying to kill Cat a narrative thrust.

Fair point. I guess the difference I was going for is that instead of having Cat do the switch mid fight (as my read of the current decoy theories), she shaped up the corpse ahead of time to look like her, filled it full of Night for it's own reservoir, and sent it out to draw the blade. My reason for liking the theory is that it is a pre planned set-up, and that Cat is currently hanging out in the Kingfisher Prince's room ("Look for me in the rooms of the prince of Brus").

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

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I think her name brings her back, which will be the Queen of Villains or some such. The whole point is she heads half of the alliance.

[lord_khaine]

Fair point. I guess the difference I was going for is that instead of having Cat do the switch mid fight (as my read of the current decoy theories), she shaped up the corpse ahead of time to look like her, filled it full of Night for it's own reservoir, and sent it out to draw the blade. My reason for liking the theory is that it is a pre planned set-up, and that Cat is currently hanging out in the Kingfisher Prince's room ("Look for me in the rooms of the prince of Brus").

When she made the switch hardly matters. Its already a pre-planned setup if she has a corpse altered to look like her in her shadow.
Though it could very well be how it actually went on. With the animated corpse double that is.

I think her name brings her back, which will be the Queen of Villains or some such. The whole point is she heads half of the alliance.

This i meanwhile think your wrong on.
The whole purpose of this band was to draw out traitors. Cat were suspecting the Fallen Monk.
So i find it very unlikely he is able to sneak up on her.

Edit.

And so to the complete lack of surprise for almost everyone, then it turns out the corpse was indeed a decoy.
Else a quite nice chapter. Seeing a bit of additional character growth for Archer, and stuff from the Mirror Knights point of view.
Enough to give a little bit of Sympathy for him.

[McNum]

Spoiler: Interlude: Threads

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The symbolism of the last part is staggering.

The Intercessor shuffling a deck of cards and inviting Cat to the table to play.

I can't help but wonder if this means Catherine is getting an invite to The Game as an active player. She's always dealt in stories, but this time she deliberately played speed chess and introduced enough new stories to drown out the intended one. It's becoming nearly impossible to trap Cat in a story she doesn't want to be in.

The next chapter will be interesting indeed, and I hope it's just Catherine and the Intercessor playing a game of cards with all the double meanings that should have.

[lord_khaine]

Initially i think its mostly an invitation to negotiate.
As such the bard does not need to treat Cat like an equal if she can avoid it.
And at the same time, if the Bard suddenly starts treating you like an equal, then its likely to manipulate you.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, so I finally got all caught up. Thanks to all those that said it would get better - you were absolutely correct.

Can someone give me an idea of what scheduling of updates looks like? I know I saw some notes here and there about changes to the scheduling, but I read past them without paying too much attention, since I couldn't know if they were the latest or not.

Slightly more on-topic, I am getting the idea that her new name will be the nemesis of the Wandering Bard (especially given how much singing she and Hakram have been doing of late) - what I've termed in my head "The Reliable Songmistress". Is this the general consensus, or am I completely off base?

Grey Wolf

[lord_khaine]

Can someone give me an idea of what scheduling of updates looks like?

Tuesday and Friday if your from Europe.

Slightly more on-topic, I am getting the idea that her new name will be the nemesis of the Wandering Bard (especially given how much singing she and Hakram have been doing of late) - what I've termed in my head "The Reliable Songmistress". Is this the general consensus, or am I completely off base?

It is litterally impossible to know with complete uncertaincy.
But all the same then i do think that theory is a little bonkers :P

I mean, if we look at it a little more seriously. Then as such the only case we have where 2 names are directly opposed, White and Black Knight,
comes from where one of the names are very strongly aligned with a side. All other names are general archtypes.

The Bard meanwhile works for both sides, and no matter how much people might dislike her, then she is fulfilling an important role in the world.
So that, coupled with that opposing the bard has mainly been incidential, leaves me 99% certain Cats name wont be a nemesis name.

[Mith]

Tuesday and Friday if your from Europe.



It is litterally impossible to know with complete uncertaincy.
But all the same then i do think that theory is a little bonkers :P

I mean, if we look at it a little more seriously. Then as such the only case we have where 2 names are directly opposed, White and Black Knight,
comes from where one of the names are very strongly aligned with a side. All other names are general archtypes.

The Bard meanwhile works for both sides, and no matter how much people might dislike her, then she is fulfilling an important role in the world.
So that, coupled with that opposing the bard has mainly been incidential, leaves me 99% certain Cats name wont be a nemesis name.

I do wonder if she will just become the Black Queen in a different form than expected. A ruler of villains that oversees Named, outside the politics that the Liesse Accords bans her from.

Traditionally Above is the the side that sets the authoritarian ruler that dictates the rules to others, while a Villian rises to the top until they are over thrown.

To flip this, you now have Hanno that takes an advisory role among the Heroes (and Tariq has also taken a step back from rule), where they are giving rise to a more meritocracy among the Heroes, while Villain's are gaining an iron rule that holds them all to account.

Cat isn't going to climb the Tower, she's building her own to eclipse it.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I mean, if we look at it a little more seriously. Then as such the only case we have where 2 names are directly opposed, White and Black Knight,
comes from where one of the names are very strongly aligned with a side. All other names are general archtypes.

The Bard meanwhile works for both sides, and no matter how much people might dislike her, then she is fulfilling an important role in the world.
So that, coupled with that opposing the bard has mainly been incidential, leaves me 99% certain Cats name wont be a nemesis name.

I had forgotten that "nemesis" has a specific PGtE meaning to it. I didn't mean it in the literal White vs Black Knight sense, although I'm not sure how Black Knight is "strongly aligned with a side", given he has, to my knowledge, never even bothered to mention "his" side. In any case, as I say, that wasn't my point. I am suggesting that her name will be music-related, and focused on countering the Wandering Bard, because that has been her focus for the last two books and X number of years, and the more you want something, the more likely it is that you get a name to do that.

Grey Wolf

[tyckspoon]

although I'm not sure how Black Knight is "strongly aligned with a side", given he has, to my knowledge, never even bothered to mention "his" side.
Grey Wolf

He's a Villain, openly acknowledges that, and comes from an area that openly worships Below. He's on the side of nominal Evil, although it's not something he appears to particularly care about - he seems to be Evil more out of custom and by opposition to what Above-associated countries have done to his homeland. He's mentioned at least once pretty explicitly that his Name powers are nowhere near as strong as they could be because he doesn't devote himself to the sort of Evil tropes that are associated with being the Black Knight.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

He's a Villain, openly acknowledges that, and comes from an area that openly worships Below. He's on the side of nominal Evil, although it's not something he appears to particularly care about - he seems to be Evil more out of custom and by opposition to what Above-associated countries have done to his homeland. He's mentioned at least once pretty explicitly that his Name powers are nowhere near as strong as they could be because he doesn't devote himself to the sort of Evil tropes that are associated with being the Black Knight.

Yeah, that's the impression I got. So obviously fawning devotion to the gods above or below are not a sine-qua-non requirement to obtain a nemesis name.

Heck, thinking about it, the White Knight does not seem to be that devout either - especially now that his Judgement crutch is unresponsive. So sure, you can get a lot more oomph to your name powers if you are devoted, but it is hardly a requirement to get one of those nemesis names.

Grey Wolf

[druid91]

He's a Villain, openly acknowledges that, and comes from an area that openly worships Below. He's on the side of nominal Evil, although it's not something he appears to particularly care about - he seems to be Evil more out of custom and by opposition to what Above-associated countries have done to his homeland. He's mentioned at least once pretty explicitly that his Name powers are nowhere near as strong as they could be because he doesn't devote himself to the sort of Evil tropes that are associated with being the Black Knight.

I mean, despite that his entire goal in life is to see Evil win. If he has to break the typical mold of evil and chart a new course of villainy to do it, in the process sacrificing some of the power and ease of using that well worn groove, then he will.

He gave an entire speech about not being upset because what Above and Heroes have done to the Praesi, and even seems actively against the Praesi as they are, but about how he hates Above on principle.

He hates that evil is made into props for the glorification of good, and wants to be the one villain that proves that just once, all the might of good was not enough to save them.

[Mith]

I mean, despite that his entire goal in life is to see Evil win. If he has to break the typical mold of evil and chart a new course of villainy to do it, in the process sacrificing some of the power and ease of using that well worn groove, then he will.

He gave an entire speech about not being upset because what Above and Heroes have done to the Praesi, and even seems actively against the Praesi as they are, but about how he hates Above on principle.

He hates that evil is made into props for the glorification of good, and wants to be the one villain that proves that just once, all the might of good was not enough to save them.

The way I see it, Amadeus is in his own way, the most influential villain in the history of the continent. He hand picked and shaped a student that to my understanding, took his ambitions to their logical conclusion. Amadeus despised the Age of Wonders, and while Karios is self proclaimed to being the one who killed the Age of Wonders, I would say that Cat is the one who is seeing that it can never be revived.


Pretty good return of investment on a knife.

[Forum Explorer]

Slightly more on-topic, I am getting the idea that her new name will be the nemesis of the Wandering Bard (especially given how much singing she and Hakram have been doing of late) - what I've termed in my head "The Reliable Songmistress". Is this the general consensus, or am I completely off base?

Grey Wolf

I feel the more common theory, and the one I ascribe to, is that Cat's new name will replace the Wandering Bard. She will either be rendered irrelevant, or killed outright by Cat taking up her new Name.

[NigelWalmsley]

He's a Villain, openly acknowledges that, and comes from an area that openly worships Below. He's on the side of nominal Evil, although it's not something he appears to particularly care about - he seems to be Evil more out of custom and by opposition to what Above-associated countries have done to his homeland.

Honestly, if it weren't for Black's deep-seated hatred for Above and the very strong Status Quo is God tendencies Names and Fate enforce (both on a personal and a national level), he could pretty easily be a hero. "Lowborn warrior rises to power by uniting the oppressed factions in society to usurp decadent nobles" is definitely a heroic story. I rather wonder if one of his Fourfold Crossing visions was him as a hero, much as one of Cat's was her taking the Name of White Knight instead.

[lord_khaine]

I had forgotten that "nemesis" has a specific PGtE meaning to it. I didn't mean it in the literal White vs Black Knight sense, although I'm not sure how Black Knight is "strongly aligned with a side", given he has, to my knowledge, never even bothered to mention "his" side. In any case, as I say, that wasn't my point. I am suggesting that her name will be music-related, and focused on countering the Wandering Bard, because that has been her focus for the last two books and X number of years, and the more you want something, the more likely it is that you get a name to do that.

Heck, thinking about it, the White Knight does not seem to be that devout either - especially now that his Judgement crutch is unresponsive. So sure, you can get a lot more oomph to your name powers if you are devoted, but it is hardly a requirement to get one of those nemesis names.

The thing you missed is that Black knight is a Name, not a person. The Black Knight is just about with epitome of below.
You also dont need to mention your side or anything. Just align yourself close along their principles.
Think less cleric devotion and preaching/praying. And more acting according to the role of your name.
Like how it was once mentioned how Taric got a massive power boost if he was acting to defend someone else.
Because that aligned with his mentor name.

[The Glyphstone]

Spoiler: Set Them Up

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And now, at last, we have somewhat of an answer. The Bard isn't trying to destroy Severance, or end Quartered Seasons, or shatter the Truce and Terms. She's going for D) All of the Above, and if we take the rules of the card game as the metaphor it's intended to be (particularly with the reference to its historical origin), what she really wants is to force Cat into conceding one of her targets in order to win another. With the lives of her friends and allies as the added incentive to play along.

[Tvtyrant]

Spoiler

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Hey look Cat got her crown! Wee!

This was a pretty clever chapter. I liked the chess/card game metaphors for war, though I wonder if the next chapter will jump perspective again.

[The Glyphstone]

We can guaranteed the next chapter will be "Knock Them Down", so I suspect at least one more interlude before we get into Cat's head again to deal with the aftermath of this whole arc.

[Mith]

We can guaranteed the next chapter will be "Knock Them Down", so I suspect at least one more interlude before we get into Cat's head again to deal with the aftermath of this whole arc.

Love the set up of this chapter.

Reading some thoughts that this should result in Cat having to cede an affray, and sacrifice one of the Woe. However, since the whole point of Cat's and Bard's fundamental difference at this time is that people are not just numbers to be shuffled around, I could see it being that we get a complete parry across all fronts with Cat personally taking a hit.

The argument of "Cat needs to let someone die" is based on defining Cat as currently "winning too much", so I'd discard that on the basis that hard won victories result in paying your dues and reaping the resulting harvest.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Love the set up of this chapter.

Reading some thoughts that this should result in Cat having to cede an affray, and sacrifice one of the Woe. However, since the whole point of Cat's and Bard's fundamental difference at this time is that people are not just numbers to be shuffled around, I could see it being that we get a complete parry across all fronts with Cat personally taking a hit.

The argument of "Cat needs to let someone die" is based on defining Cat as currently "winning too much", so I'd discard that on the basis that hard won victories result in paying your dues and reaping the resulting harvest.

Not to mention that winning by ceding an affray (or two) sounds very much like winning by the rules, and Cat's thing is winning despite them.

Grey Wolf

[Mith]

Not to mention that winning by ceding an affray (or two) sounds very much like winning by the rules, and Cat's thing is winning despite them.

Grey Wolf

Also, my read of Cat's method of operation, outside of when she was deep in Winter to think that enslaving the drow was a good idea, generally seems to be that you invest in people to get them to be independently functional. I'm not saying she has a perfect track record, but it does seem that she is willing to let competency rise and gain relative autonomy compared to the Bard. Yes she "molded" Vivienne, but I genuinely ask what is the difference between that and what anyone in a mentorship position does? In that specific instance, they were not equals despite being friends. However, being willing to invest in people beyond immediate tools does allow for them to rise to the occasion (see Marchford for example)

I know there are jokes of "Only Cat can kill her people, no one else can", but that is really her having to deal with the fallout of her own short sided choices in Book 1, which is really a kid being handed way too much influence on the socio-political forces on the continent. Most of how the series reads to me after the first book is her dealing with the fall out thinking that Callow can just deal with "one more war".

[paddyfool]

I just started binging this. I thought I'd read a lot... and then I checked the table of contents and saw that the chapter, Greenskins, is only on book 2 of 6.

To those on book 6: is it getting anywhere near the end yet?

[Tvtyrant]

I just started binging this. I thought I'd read a lot... and then I checked the table of contents and saw that the chapter, Greenskins, is only on book 2 of 6.

To those on book 6: is it getting anywhere near the end yet?

Not really. We have a couple books left to go before the actual ending as far as I can tell. It is rather where OotS was after the party got back together but before Tarkin.

[The Glyphstone]

I think EE has said this is the second-to-last book, but how much is left of the current one we don't know.

[Iruka]

I think EE has said this is the second-to-last book, but how much is left of the current one we don't know.

I understood this post to mean that Book VI was already the last one.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I just started binging this. I thought I'd read a lot...

Having just finished the same journey you've just started, I want to assure you that you have, in fact, read a lot. The books are long. Don't be discouraged by the fact that they are, enjoy it instead.

Oh, and based on my own experience: there is a rough patch around the mid-to-end of book 4; it does get better again after, but I had to do a lot of gritted teeth reading to get past it.

Grey Wolf

[The Glyphstone]

I understood this post to mean that Book VI was already the last one.

Yeah, I guess I was off by one.

[lord_khaine]

Not to mention that winning by ceding an affray (or two) sounds very much like winning by the rules, and Cat's thing is winning despite them.

I would be more accurate and say her thing is to cheat, break or subvert the rules :P
Though i also think the ending made it pretty clear that this game is all about cheating.
As both Cat and Bard were getting serious.

Still, the conversation between Bard and Cat does seem to support the idea that Cat might end replacing the Bard.
I mean, clearly the Bard does hold an important role.
But it also seem the job has slowly but surely worn her down. At least from Cat's perspective.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Spoiler: 4/24 Chapter Knock Them Down

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Slightly more on-topic, I am getting the idea that her new name will be the nemesis of the Wandering Bard (especially given how much singing she and Hakram have been doing of late) - what I've termed in my head "The Reliable Songmistress". Is this the general consensus, or am I completely off base?

OK, so I was mostly right: the hints that she was growing into a nemesis of the Wandering Bard where there, because the Bard was trying to push her into that name.

Grey Wolf