Are the demigods stuffed?

[factotum]

Also, aside from the goblins, most people don't even know TDO exists at all. The demigods and ascended elven gods are recognised, even if they don't get as much worship as the primary gods. So TDO is lacking in Belief as well.

That's predicated on the assumption that there aren't many goblinoids compared to, say, humans or dwarves, but I don't think that's necessarily the case? If there are millions of goblinoids (which I think is so) then TDO has plenty of Belief. And that's not diluted by there being other gods, either--if you're a goblinoid you worship TDO, there really isn't any other choice.

[Potatopeelerkin]

That's predicated on the assumption that there aren't many goblinoids compared to, say, humans or dwarves, but I don't think that's necessarily the case? If there are millions of goblinoids (which I think is so) then TDO has plenty of Belief. And that's not diluted by there being other gods, either--if you're a goblinoid you worship TDO, there really isn't any other choice.

Does the power of your believers affect the power of Belief? It seems to with Worship, Dedication and Souls, so I don't imagine Belief being any different. And goblins don't often live long enough to become very powerful- any time they get reasonably high-level, they're picked off by adventurers or paladins. So if the power of your believers matters, an army of low-level goblins may not be much better than a handful of high-level adventurers.

We also have indication that not all goblinoids particularly care or even know about TDO. Oona talks about how bugbears aren't that dedicated to TDO, and I can imagine communities of hard-done-by norkers and nilbogs that doubt TDO's existence at all. Most of the goblins we've seen know and worship TDO, but most of the goblins we've seen also come into contact with TDO's high priest regularly, so they're not a good indicator of broader goblin beliefs.

The fact that notable goblin clerics die so often would make it hard to spread the religion, after all.

I wouldn't imagine Belief being diluted by other gods... even if you worship Loki and hate Thor, you still believe Thor exists, and that recognition should still give him power (to my understanding, that's what separates Belief from Worship). Dilution between pantheons, sure (as a worshipper of the Northern gods may not know all the Western ones) but you probably believe in all the gods of your own pantheon.

[factotum]

So if the power of your believers matters, an army of low-level goblins may not be much better than a handful of high-level adventurers.

We also have indication that not all goblinoids particularly care or even know about TDO.

Those are both also the case for other gods. High-level adventures seem to be pretty rare in the Stickverse, and not all of those particularly care about the Gods--look at Roy, who doesn't seem to have strong beliefs in any god (although he acknowledges they exist). Also, that whole thing about belief being more powerful for high-level characters is, as far as I can tell, something you made up--there's nothing I can think of in the strip that supports it.

[Potatopeelerkin]

Those are both also the case for other gods. High-level adventures seem to be pretty rare in the Stickverse, and not all of those particularly care about the Gods--look at Roy, who doesn't seem to have strong beliefs in any god (although he acknowledges they exist). Also, that whole thing about belief being more powerful for high-level characters is, as far as I can tell, something you made up--there's nothing I can think of in the strip that supports it.

There's nothing that indicates Belief is, but Hel has said that she's held back by her undead clerics dying before they ever reach any decent level, I think. Can someone better with the archives than me confirm?

Assuming I haven't just invented a page, that suggests that the power of Worship and Dedication is influenced by the strength of their clerics. So it seems likely that Belief is the same way.

Roy acknowledges the gods exist, that means he believes in them. You're thinking of Worship- since he doesn't pray to or supplicate to them he wouldn't provide them with Worship. The description given IN-COMIC for belief is "Belief is when mortals know we exist, in these specific identities" which does fit Roy's relationship with the Northern gods, and pretty closely matches what you said about Roy too!

[factotum]

There's nothing that indicates Belief is, but Hel has said that she's held back by her undead clerics dying before they ever reach any decent level, I think. Can someone better with the archives than me confirm?

If she said that (and I can't remember one way or the other) then I'd interpret that more as "no clerics" means "no-one to spread the word of Hel and get her worshippers"--which is why she canonically has *no* living worshippers.

[D.One]

If she said that (and I can't remember one way or the other) then I'd interpret that more as "no clerics" means "no-one to spread the word of Hel and get her worshippers"--which is why she canonically has *no* living worshippers.

"Now that I don't have clerics to spread my words, the mortals don't know enough to thank me."

[JeenLeen]

Given that the demigods weren't all strongly opposed to destroying the world, I think they probably feel they will survive.

That's a bit tongue-in-check, but I mean it overall. I reckon some would be selfless enough to want to end the world, risking their own death, rather than risk the final destruction of mortal souls. But not all of them. And none of them seemed to use a selfish reason like that for voting No. (It wouldn't have been stated explicitly yet, since we didn't know enough plot, but it coulda been mentioned as foreshadowing.)

[KorvinStarmast]

Thrym, Demigod of Frozen Turkeys in Snackworld, certainly had the threat of stuffing looming over him. His Stuffing was in fact part of the Doggy-Bagnarok, where Thrym was transformed into Surtr, Demigod of Cooked Turkeys. The transformation was difficult at first as none knew which God could stuff a frozen turkey, but it was much easier once they left it to Thor.

And there stood Thor, trying to tenderize the turkey with his hammer ... the forzen turkey cracked ... and created thereby the first ever nuggets of poultry. The Golden Arches were an attempt to mimic the rainbow bridge to Asgard ...

[Emanick]

Given that the demigods weren't all strongly opposed to destroying the world, I think they probably feel they will survive.

That's a bit tongue-in-check, but I mean it overall. I reckon some would be selfless enough to want to end the world, risking their own death, rather than risk the final destruction of mortal souls. But not all of them. And none of them seemed to use a selfish reason like that for voting No. (It wouldn't have been stated explicitly yet, since we didn't know enough plot, but it coulda been mentioned as foreshadowing.)

My guess (which seems reasonable to me, but is still only a guess) is that Dvalin is the only Northern demigod to have ascended in this world. The others, then, don't have to worry about risking their skins when it comes to destroying the world, and Dvalin himself is so Lawful (and Good, probably) that it's hard for me to picture him putting his own sense of self-preservation over his fidelity to the wishes of the Council of Elders.

[Fyraltari]

My guess (which seems reasonable to me, but is still only a guess) is that Dvalin is the only Northern demigod to have ascended in this world. The others, then, don't have to worry about risking their skins when it comes to destroying the world, and Dvalin himself is so Lawful (and Good, probably) that it's hard for me to picture him putting his own sense of self-preservation over his fidelity to the wishes of the Council of Elders.

My money is on Dvalin being LN. I mean, come on.

[Riftwolf]

My money is on Dvalin being LN. I mean, come on.

I bet Lawful Lawful.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Is Extra Lawful Mega Stupid an option?

[mjasghar]

With reference to goblinoid numbers
Part of the design of goblinoids in Oots world is a very very high fertility rate to allow them to be XP fodder
When a bunch of hobgobs effectively had peace with their local humanoids the result was a population that rocketed into unbelievable numbers
In a world with peace with the Dark One the goblinoids could end up outbreeding every other race to the level of causing environmental apocalypse or forcing them to go to war anyway

[Potatopeelerkin]

"Now that I don't have clerics to spread my words, the mortals don't know enough to thank me."

Hmm, that wasn't the page I was looking for... It was more along the lines of how every wight or similar undead with a high enough level got killed as the last boss of a dungeon. But perhaps I'm confusing myself and thinking Hel said that when it was really someone else, or making it up entirely.

[Jasdoif]

Hmm, that wasn't the page I was looking for... It was more along the lines of how every wight or similar undead with a high enough level got killed as the last boss of a dungeon. But perhaps I'm confusing myself and thinking Hel said that when it was really someone else, or making it up entirely.

HPoH said it.

[Potatopeelerkin]

HPoH said it.

Thank you! Unfortunately I guess that doesn't really back up my point at all. Ah well, it's still a possible explanation.

I don't think it's likely that the ascended gods will all die. The Western pantheon (of which the ascended elven gods are members of) voted Yes- seeing as the Western gods sponsored them in the first place, would they really be willing to let them die? It seems more likely to me that either low-level hobgoblin worship and belief isn't worth that much, TDO isn't recognised enough by goblins to overcome the rest of the world's lack of knowledge about his existence, or a pantheon sponsorship gives them a large advantage.

[Riftwolf]

I don't think it's likely that the ascended gods will all die. The Western pantheon (of which the ascended elven gods are members of) voted Yes- seeing as the Western gods sponsored them in the first place, would they really be willing to let them die?

The majority voted yes. We don't even know if the Elven Gods voted at all. And seeing as the comic has had a literal Word of God saying 'The demigods might not make it and others have died before', I'm not sure what you're basing your 'probably okay' verdict on. Do you think the Western Pantheon are any more compassionate and altruistic than the reasons for voting yes we've seen from the Northern Pantheon?

Thinking about it, the Messenger Demigods reticence to vote yes makes a lot more sense when you consider that his vote turned from a protest vote to one that could kill him.

[martianmister]

Ascended Gods =/= Demi-Gods.

[factotum]

The majority voted yes. We don't even know if the Elven Gods voted at all.

It's not solid evidence, but I'm inclined to think that the decision of the Western Pantheon being delivered by an Elf suggests that their gods were involved somewhere along the line.

[Potatopeelerkin]

The majority voted yes. We don't even know if the Elven Gods voted at all. And seeing as the comic has had a literal Word of God saying 'The demigods might not make it and others have died before', I'm not sure what you're basing your 'probably okay' verdict on. Do you think the Western Pantheon are any more compassionate and altruistic than the reasons for voting yes we've seen from the Northern Pantheon?

Thinking about it, the Messenger Demigods reticence to vote yes makes a lot more sense when you consider that his vote turned from a protest vote to one that could kill him.

The Messenger God never cited "It could kill me" as a reason, and I imagine it would be a pretty major one. Rather, it was "I can't be the one to deliver this news-" it sounds like their concern was for their followers, not themselves. Which, granted, doesn't prove anything, but I don't think it's very good evidence in defence of your point.

Loki's defence of the world also never mentions that they'd be killing gods. I realise that he's a goofy trickster god, but you'd imagine that'd be a pretty good point in his favour. Could win him a couple of extra votes. And not a single "No" voter mentioned that as a reason either, and I would have thought that'd matter to at least one.

The ONLY thing we have to base the idea they'd all die off of is that one line by Thor (which didn't even mention anyone from this world besides TDO), and I feel like if it was going to kill off a whole bunch of gods that would have been mentioned by someone else. Otherwise we have to come up with an excuse for why basically every compassionate god forgot they'd be killing off family.

I think the Western gods might have a bit more concern because they'd be killing some of their own. Imagine, you spend all this time sponsoring new gods, welcome them into your family, and then announce you'd rather kill them than buy them a little extra time to prepare.

[Fyraltari]

It's not solid evidence, but I'm inclined to think that the decision of the Western Pantheon being delivered by an Elf suggests that their gods were involved somewhere along the line.

Wrecan thinks otherwise.

Of course it is possible the Elven Gods have something similar to the Northern demigods going on, where they serve as a tiebraker. For what its worth Veldrina's goddess is "very minor".

[Kish]

Wrecan thinks otherwise.

He said that they vote as part of the Western Pantheon. You just linked it.

[Fyraltari]

He said that they vote as part of the Western Pantheon. You just linked it.

It doesn't say they always vote or that they have voted in this particular case. Hermod votes as part of the Northern Pantheon... once in a blue moon.

[Potatopeelerkin]

It doesn't say they always vote or that they have voted in this particular case. Hermod votes as part of the Northern Pantheon... once in a blue moon.

That's seems like a bit of a stretch to me. The obvious interpretation is usually the correct one, unless there's any evidence against it.

[Fyraltari]

That's seems like a bit of a stretch to me. The obvious interpretation is usually the correct one, unless there's any evidence against it.

Roy and Wrecan were discussing why the Elven Gods didn't get a vote for themselves as a fourth pantheon. The answer being because they vote as part of the Western Pantheon. Wether they have full voting rights or not was not relevant to that.

It's possible every Elven god is a demigod, it's possible none of them are, it's possible only some of them are. It's possible they all have full voting rights, it's possible none of them have it's possible only some of them have. We don't know the inner workings of the Western Pantheon's system, it may be more streamlined than the Northern or more byzantine.

[Kish]

There is no reason to take "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon" as indicating anything other than "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon." Nothing about demigods, nothing about them not voting this time, nothing except nothing.

[Fyraltari]

There is no reason to take "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon" as indicating anything other than "the elven gods vote with the Western Pantheon." Nothing about demigods, nothing about them not voting this time, nothing except nothing.

This cuts both ways.
There is no reason to take it as proof of the Elven Gods having voted in this particular case either.
Especially not when we know that some of the Northern Gods only get to vote when there's a tie.

[factotum]

I'm with Kish here. The sequence of statements in the linked strips is most easily interpreted as "The elven gods got to vote on this issue with the Western Pantheon", otherwise there would have been no point in bringing them up in the first place--or Wrecan could have said "But they don't usually get to vote".

[Riftwolf]

I'm with Kish here. The sequence of statements in the linked strips is most easily interpreted as "The elven gods got to vote on this issue with the Western Pantheon", otherwise there would have been no point in bringing them up in the first place--or Wrecan could have said "But they don't usually get to vote".

One reason to bring it up is to explain there's other Ascendants, but they're usually hosted by an existing Pantheon because of quiddities. If their voting with West Pantheon wasn't mentioned, there'd be forum threads asking why TDO was special when other Gods had been mentioned.
That said, I agree its possible the Elven Pantheon has an equal vote in Godsmoots. We don't know enough about the Workings of the West to make more than educated guesses though.

[Potatopeelerkin]

One reason to bring it up is to explain there's other Ascendants, but they're usually hosted by an existing Pantheon because of quiddities. If their voting with West Pantheon wasn't mentioned, there'd be forum threads asking why TDO was special when other Gods had been mentioned.
That said, I agree its possible the Elven Pantheon has an equal vote in Godsmoots. We don't know enough about the Workings of the West to make more than educated guesses though.

That's the narrative explanation, but I think factotum meant why Wrecan would bring it up. He's not aware he's explaining things to a horde of webcomic readers.

If Rich wanted to he could just word-of-god it on the forums, or leave it for us to work out. It's not like that hasn't happened before. Where they vote isn't important enough to have to be mentioned in-comic, especially if it'd just cause more confusion.