How is it that Hel has NO worshipers

[Rogar Demonblud]

So yeah, Giant is right Hel is at 0 worshipers, Great, given how the OOTSworld has been shown to work so far, HOW is that possible?

That was one of the rules put in place when they created the self-aware fantasy parody world many centuries ago. Hel is probably already loopholing it to use undead as clerics. People can no more defy it than they can suddenly decide to build a squadron of Colonial Vipers.

[Ruck]

I'm ok with "Hel Derives 0 worship from worshippers" but I want a little more for 0 worshippers to be maintained for all time. I offered something up, but it got swallowed up in this whole Free Will business...

If Hel Derives 0 Worship from people who decided to praise her, but she still derives dedication from them, then it might be reasonable to an Evil god to cash in on that Dedication immediately... which on a generational basis would lead to 0. Eventually other crazies would pop up and try and that would be her bonus feast per generation.

For reasons that some other people might wish to explain, this was completely ignored and some odd narrative about my motivations for writing on a forum were explored instead.

If that explanation works for you, great. I think some of the conflict in this thread is borne because you seem to want your theory validated or otherwise there to be a definitive explanation, but there really isn't one forthcoming.

And yes, I suppose that counts as exploring your motivations for starting this thread, but it's hardly an "odd narrative." It's just that you're asking a question that will never be answered with any certitude, that most people are satisfied with (either because they don't care or because any number of possible explanations are good enough), and that you're not.

If you wanted to discuss theories for the mechanic, okay, but people have hypothesized a lot of possibilities and you seem to keep saying "That's not good enough."

[Rrmcklin]

That was one of the rules put in place when they created the self-aware fantasy parody world many centuries ago. Hel is probably already loopholing it to use undead as clerics. People can no more defy it than they can suddenly decide to build a squadron of Colonial Vipers.

No she isn't, the conditions of the bet specifically limit her to the undead.

[Anymage]

Look. I headcanon "no worshipers, and certainly no clerics" to be Rich's way of putting a double underline under the "no clerics" bit without giving all the relevant details. If "literally no worshipers" means "practically no worshipers and I'm misusing 'literally' for emphasis", go with that. It makes a lot more sense for me.

(Hel has lived through worlds before, knows that worship is important, and got used to having worship flow in without having to make an effort. I assume that the wording of the bet - default dominion over non-honorable dwarves in exchange for giving up the ability to have living clerics - is all there is to it. Being blocked off from worship in general would require something added to the bet, and I'm sure that extra bit would not be accepted. Hel just thought she'd keep getting free worship without effort, which didn't turn out to be the case.)

Sometimes minor plot holes happen in the edges of larger works. Either find ways to headcanon them, or just overlook them in the name of the larger narrative. Authors can goof every now and then. If a dozen insane dwarves specieswide can say "praise Hel!" and give her crumbs of worship that doesn't change the fact that she's worship starved and normally unable to act anywhere that clerics are involved. I don't see the point of digging in so strongly about it.

[Ruck]

Hel is probably already loopholing it to use undead as clerics.

No she isn't, the conditions of the bet specifically limit her to the undead.

Source:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html

(I agree with the rest of Rogar's post, pretty much.)

[Potatopeelerkin]

If you want to come up with your own mechanic, that's fine. But demanding proof of a mechanic that will never be explained is not that. Being told by the creator "X cannot happen" and saying "I assume X can happen so prove to me it can't" is not that.

I don't want proof of a mechanic, I just want an explanation that makes sense. If there's any explanation that fits the story and is sensible I'm happy to go with it. And there have been a couple of suggestions like that, which is why I don't think it's a plot hole.

My belief is that you CAN pray to Hel, it's just completely ineffective for both Hel and the person praying, and so no one bothers to do it. It's possible one or two people do it anyway, and the Giant just said "No one does it" for the sake of simplicity.

What I DON'T think is true is that it's physically impossible for a person to pray to Hel, because that doesn't make sense. All the analogies people have given (elections, transforming into giant tomatoes, etc) hinge on either A. something that's biologically impossible or B. something that requires input from another party. Again, surely all you need to pray to a god is a voice, and there's no process of verification required to pray to someone, so neither analogy works. If I'm physically capable of saying "All hail Thor!" I should surely be capable of saying "All hail Hel!" provided my throat doesn't constrict while I'm doing it.

You're right in that I'm not particularly curious about the metaphysical mechanics behind the rules of the world, if those mechanics aren't important to the story. My curiosity is about the questions of drama; the ways in which, to quote Robert Penn Warren's All The King's Men, "It all could have been different, Jack. You got to believe that."...

What interests me about OOTS are the characters and their journeys, not the details of the world the story is set in-- especially since the author of the story has said he purposely doesn't write details unless he has to.

Then why are you in this thread to begin with? Just because you're not interested doesn't mean no one is.

[Ruck]

I don't want proof of a mechanic, I just want an explanation that makes sense. If there's any explanation that fits the story and is sensible I'm happy to go with it. And there have been a couple of suggestions like that, which is why I don't think it's a plot hole.

My belief is that you CAN pray to Hel, it's just completely ineffective for both Hel and the person praying, and so no one bothers to do it. It's possible one or two people do it anyway, and the Giant just said "No one does it" for the sake of simplicity.

What I DON'T think is true is that it's physically impossible for a person to pray to Hel, because that doesn't make sense. All the analogies people have given (elections, transforming into giant tomatoes, etc) hinge on either A. something that's biologically impossible or B. something that requires input from another party. Again, surely all you need to pray to a god is a voice, and there's no process of verification required to pray to someone, so neither analogy works. If I'm physically capable of saying "All hail Thor!" I should surely be capable of saying "All hail Hel!" provided my throat doesn't constrict while I'm doing it.



Then why are you in this thread to begin with? Just because you're not interested doesn't mean no one is.

I don't think the discussion is uninteresting, but I do have a pet peeve about people making assumptions that don't fit the story and then demanding the inconsistencies be explained. If the thread was created as more of an open discussion to theorize how it might happen, I probably wouldn't have the same problem with it. (I suppose I also have a pet peeve about being called incurious.)

[rbetieh]

That was one of the rules put in place when they created the self-aware fantasy parody world many centuries ago. Hel is probably already loopholing it to use undead as clerics. People can no more defy it than they can suddenly decide to build a squadron of Colonial Vipers.

Ok so, the rule doesn't keep with the godly nutritional scheme, though.

Belief - Everyone in a pantheon gets that one for free (hence TDOs problem)
Worship - Democratically (and this is the sticking point) decided - you get to choose your god, they get power from that choice, except clerics, you pay your clerics with power which I assume comes from the worship pool
Dedication - Democratically decided again, with the exception of dishonored Dwarves
Souls - Not strictly based on worship, since I assume all gods of the LG alignment have their home plane in the LG afterlife, this gets evenly split, except for Hel's cut. Not sure if she still gets an alignment cut as well.

So some of the gods are in competition for power, as Hel explains. Her outsized Dedication/Souls cut happening all at once right now, should power her past the other gods in her pantheon. But all the other gods are also in this game, even if not actually trying to grab power. They compete for Worship and Dedication, maybe even souls if their clerics attempt redeeming evildoers/gooddoers/non-neutraldoers.

So, we have a bunch of gods that have created a bunch of people specifically to derive energy from. But these gods (except Hel) don't generally treat these people like farm animals, from what they each said at the Moot, if they did then they would apportion Worship equally like they do with Belief. How are they competing then? A free system of anyone can Worship anyone, to include things that give rise to new gods, creed of stone, Banjo the clown, etc. If you are so free, why would you expect to be banned from Hel specifically? Those other worships are just votes of no confidence after all, It's choosing "none of the above". Sometimes "none of the above" gives rise to new gods, other times it doesn't. That really doesnt matter. What matters is you can choose to withhold worship as a mortal.

Imagine the alternative: You can't choose "None of the Above". What does it say about the Gods as a whole? How does a weaker god get ahead? Who gets your worship if you hate all of them, some god of Hatred? Also, what other choices might have they taken from the mortals? What does that mean for this world as a whole?

Better to believe they can worship Hel, but something else is going on here....

[Dion]

If Hel Derives 0 Worship from people who decided to praise her, but she still derives dedication from them, then it might be reasonable to an Evil god to cash in on that Dedication immediately...

You’re saying that Hel has zero worshippers because the second anyone tries to worship her, Hel immediately murders them herself for the dedication bump?

Sure. I can go with that.

Hel has 0 worshippers because if anyone tries to worship Hel, she kills them herself.

[Themrys]

Well, the "no take-backs" rule comes into play... I think the most pressing rule is once the world is created, that worlds rules can't be changed. So Hel cant cancel the bet...

Why does it have to be a rule? It could just be a fact that the basic physics, etc. of the world can't be changed once it is created, and that Hel's lack of worshippers is more a fact (like physics) than a rule that can be changed.

If it was just a rule, then Hel could just demand that it be changed if they want her to vote for keeping the world intact.


Regarding the "Hel is nasty and therefore no one wants to worship her" theory - it is most likely that she used to be a normal goddess of death, illness and destruction, and those have, in the real world, quite some followers. They're usually the dark aspect of a mother goddess, and may be worshipped along with that goddess, or they are believed to be able to take away disease, too, not just spread it.

With the fact that, in OOTSverse, belief makes the god/dess and all the dwarves believe Hel to be exclusively evil, (and they do believe in her) with no clerics to say otherwise, it is quite possible that she became not just unhinged but more evil over time.

After all, Thor says he used to be a redhead ...


Edit: I am pretty sure Hel can't kill people who worship her. That would mean she can also kill people who don't worship her, and in that case, killing someone's enemies would be enough of a "miracle" to gain more followers.

[martianmister]

You’re saying that Hel has zero worshippers because the second anyone tries to worship her, Hel immediately murders them herself for the dedication bump?

Sure. I can go with that.

Hel has 0 worshippers because if anyone tries to worship Hel, she kills them herself.

So, she is a Tsundere goddess? I hear the existence of jealous gods before, but this is ridiculous.

[hroþila]

So, she is a Tsundere goddess? I hear the existence of jealous gods before, but this is ridiculous.

"I-It's not like I want you to worship me, you baka!"

[georgie_leech]

So, she is a Tsundere goddess? I hear the existence of jealous gods before, but this is ridiculous.

I'm pretty sure murdering your potential worshippers moves you into Yandere territory

[Anymage]

If it was just a rule, then Hel could just demand that it be changed if they want her to vote for keeping the world intact.

Why would Hel want to forfeit now, when she thinks she's about to win?

Could Hel forfeit if she ponied up whatever the stakes of the wager were and got over her own ego? That's relevant if this world winds up lasting into perpetuity, not so much when she thinks she has the upper hand.

[rbetieh]

You’re saying that Hel has zero worshippers because the second anyone tries to worship her, Hel immediately murders them herself for the dedication bump?

Sure. I can go with that.

Hel has 0 worshippers because if anyone tries to worship Hel, she kills them herself.

Since we all accepted that No Clerics = No Worship power, it sort of follows that a god that knows they can't get worship might want to cash in on what they can get, immediately (dont want those pesky worshipers changing their minds). I'm glad no one disagreed on that point, because it made total sense (to me at least) once others brought it up.

[Peelee]

Since we all accepted that No Clerics = No Worship power, it sort of follows that a god that knows they can't get worship might want to cash in on what they can get, immediately (dont want those pesky worshipers changing their minds). I'm glad no one disagreed on that point, because it made total sense (to me at least) once others brought it up.

Question: How can Hel just up and off a worshipper?

[Fyraltari]

Question: How can Hel just up and off a worshipper?

Giving them sphinx pox or something?

[Peelee]

Giving them sphinx pox or something?

Seems like she'd be trying to plague everyone with everything she could, if possible. Of course, it may be the clerics just heal 'em up.

[Dion]

Question: How can Hel just up and off a worshipper?

Cats. Hel is in league with the cats.

One minute, you’re setting up a nice little altar to Hel in the spare closet under the stairs. The next minute, Mr. Scruffy has disemboweled you. Bam, you’re dead.

[The MunchKING]

Seems like she'd be trying to plague everyone with everything she could, if possible. Of course, it may be the clerics just heal 'em up.

Just like Thor isn't allowed to solve all his problems by blasting them with lightning or whacking them with his mighty Hammer, Her also can't just drop super-diseases out of her Divine power.

How MUCH they are allowed to get away with is fuzzy, considering he DID get away with dropping an out-of-nowhere super-storm on the Methane. But he permitted it to be cleared up by Control Weather.

[Ruck]

Question: How can Hel just up and off a worshipper?

Also, why would she kill her own worshippers? She wants worshippers. Even if that's how it worked, why would she enforce the negative consequences for the bet on herself? What is she, a paladin?

[Dion]

Also, why would she kill her own worshippers?

It’s the cats again. She does it to appease the cats.

[Ruck]

How MUCH they are allowed to get away with is fuzzy, considering he DID get away with dropping an out-of-nowhere super-storm on the Methane.

That is not the gas that powers the airship.

[The MunchKING]

I blame auto correct. It's hard enough to get it to understand the weird proper nouns I type regularly, much less that ship.

[woweedd]

Seems like she'd be trying to plague everyone with everything she could, if possible. Of course, it may be the clerics just heal 'em up.

I mean, she gave eveyrone on the ship Sphinx Pox. She can make a diease spread faster then normal, even if she can't change the incubation time, for the same reason Thor, for instance, CAN summon a storm and make that storm strike certain areas, but CAN't summon it, say, indoors.

[woweedd]

Also, why would she kill her own worshippers? She wants worshippers. Even if that's how it worked, why would she enforce the negative consequences for the bet on herself? What is she, a paladin?

Thanks to the Bet, she can't get any power from their worship, BUT, she can dervie power from the burst given off by their death. Thus...Perverse Incentives in action.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

vene if she can't hcnage the incubation time, for the samer eason Thro,

Bloody Hel woweedd. That looks almost like Latin. Took me three times to parse through the whole thing. That is an actually amazing run of out-of-order type typos. It must be what reading is like with dislexia.

I'm not even mad, I'm just impressed, in a way.

Grey Wolf

[woweedd]

Bloody Hel woweedd. That looks almost like Latin. Took me three times to parse through the whole thing. That is an actually amazing run of out-of-order type typos. It must be what reading is like with dislexia.

I'm not even mad, I'm just impressed, in a way.

Grey Wolf

This monument to my failure shall last forever.

[Fyraltari]

This moument to my failure shall last forever.

Was that intended?

[woweedd]

Was that intended?

No.
This si, though.