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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    I'm starting soon in a W:DH campaign with expectations to continue through WD:DotMM later. There are four PCs - Barbarian, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue (me). I'm acting as the resident skill monkey and face together with decent DPR. The DM allows any character builds built from official WoTC source material. At the moment I've settled on the following (with props to Ogeeogelthorpe):

    Class & Level: Rogue 1
    Background & Alignment: Charlatan CG (RPing a Robin Hood-esque orphan-turned-fake Elven noble who steals and forges documents from the rich and gives to the poor)
    Race: Aereni Elf (High Elf Variant)
    Darkvision (60'), Fey Ancestry, Trace
    Tool Profs: Thieves' tools, Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit
    Languages: Common, Elvish, Undercommon, Thieves' Cant
    Cantrip: Booming Blade

    Abilities: 8 Str, 17 Dex, 13 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 12 Cha
    Skill Profs: Acrobatics (5), Deception (5), Investigation (5), Perception (3), Persuasion (3), Sleight of Hand (5), Stealth (7)
    Expertise: Deception, Perception, Stealth

    Note - I realized after originally posting this that Booming Blade+offhand attack isn't actually possible.

    • Rogue 1
    • HP: 9
    • AC: 14
    • ST Profs: Dex, Int
    • Damage estimate [BB (Rapier)] (+5): 1d8 (R) + 1d6 (SA) + 1d8 (BB) + 3 = 15.5 average Piercing/Thunder damage (assumes the target willingly moves because I Disengaged to safety)

    For simplicity, the above does not factor in OAs, criticals, or magic items.

    ASIs (5 total):

    • Elven Accuracy (Dex)
    • Resilient (Con)
    • Mobile
    • War Caster
    • +2 Dex

    Other considerations: +2 Int, Lucky, Sentinel, Alert, Mage Slayer, Tough.

    At level 3 I will specialize as an Arcane Trickster and then eventually multiclass into Bladesinger. I will probably continue with AT until at least level 4 to get that first ASI. From there I'm not sure if I should switch to Bladesinger or stay with AT until 6-8. I will eventually utilize Shadow Blade, Owl familiar's Flyby Help for frequent attack advantage.

    Assuming level 20, I see two viable builds: AT 15/BS 5 and AT 11/BS 9. The former ends up as a 10th-level spellcaster with access to a variety of 3rd-level spells and the latter becomes a 12th-level spellcaster with access to a variety of 4th-/5th-level spells. The problem with anything more than AT 15 is that I'll only end up with two 3rd-level spells non-Enchantment/Illusion Wizard spells, which would be Fireball and Fly. So no Counterspell, Dispel Magic, Haste, Sending, Tongues, etc. Not to mention even fewer spell slots for upcasting Shadow Blade:

    Code:
    Level	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
    8th	4	3	3	2	-	-	-	-	-
    9th	4	3	3	3	1	-	-	-	-
    10th	4	3	3	3	2	-	-	-	-
    12th	4	3	3	3	2	1	-	-	-

    The strengths of AT 15/BS 5 over AT 11/BS 9:

    • Slightly more HP
    • +2d6 SA
    • Versatile Trickster
    • Blindsense
    • Slippery Mind

    • Arcane Trickster 15 / Bladesinger 5
    • HP: 8 + 14d8 + 5d6 + 40 = 138
    • AC: 13 (MA) + 5 (Dex) + 3 (Int) + 5 (Shield) = 26 + Mirror Image
    • ST Profs: Con, Dex, Int, Wis
    • Damage estimate [BB (SB)] (+11): 4d8 (SB) + 8d6 (SA) + 3d8 (BB) + 5 = 64.5 average Psychic/Thunder damage (assumes the target does not move)
    • Damage estimate [BB (SB)] (+11): 4d8 (SB) + 8d6 (SA) + 7d8 (BB) + 5 = 82.5 average Psychic/Thunder damage (assumes the target willingly moves)

    For simplicity, the above does not factor in OAs or criticals. The assumption that the target does not move and therefore does not get hit by BB's rider is less likely to be true than the alternative, I think. This is because disengagement should almost always happen; either as a Disengage bonus action or free disengagement via Mobile. Of note is a situational option Green-Flame Blade if two enemies are standing side-by-side.

    The strengths of AT 11/BS 9 over AT 15/BS 5:

    • Additional 5th- & 6th-spell slots
    • 4th-level spells known
    • 5th-level spells known
    • Extra Attack

    • Arcane Trickster 11 / Bladesinger 9
    • HP: 8 + 10d8 + 9d6 + 40 = 134
    • AC: 13 (MA) + 5 (Dex) + 3 (Int) + 5 (Shield) = 26 + Mirror Image
    • ST Profs: Con, Dex, Int
    • Damage estimate [BB (SB)] (+11): 4d8 (SB) + 6d6 (SA) + 3d8 (BB) + 5 = 57.5 average Psychic/Thunder damage (assumes the target does not move)
    • Damage estimate [BB (SB)] (+11): 4d8 (SB) + 6d6 (SA) + 7d8 (BB) + 5 = 75.5 average Psychic/Thunder damage (assumes the target willingly moves)
    • Damage estimate [SB+EA+offhand] (+11/+11/+12): 2*4d8 (SB) + 1d4 (D) + 6d6 (SA) + 2*5 + 1 = 70.5 average Psychic/Piercing damage

    For simplicity, the above does not factor in OAs, criticals, or magic items except dagger+1. Of course, a magical finesse weapon with worthwhile utility should be possible to acquire by level 20. Of note is a situational option besides Booming Blade will be Green-Flame Blade. However, both cantrips seem like less reliable damage than Extra Attack once it is acquired (due to the increased number of chances to critical hit and apply SA damage).

    So, AT 15/BS 5 gets slightly more average attack damage and a notable boost to survivability with the passives Blindsense and Slippery Mind. But AT 11/BS 9 gets 4/5 level spells and Extra Attack that will more reliably critical hit and apply SA. I'll probably be going with the latter.

    Any improvement suggestions? I'm mainly looking for assistance on a level progression path, but I'm open to all optimization suggestions within the character concept (skill monkey/face/maximizing Shadow Blade and Elven Accuracy).
    Last edited by omniknight; 2018-11-10 at 10:23 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Planetar

    Join Date
    Feb 2018

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Are you expecting to be able to use disengage to run in and out while the Cleric and Barbarian are getting hit, or are you expecting to do a share of tanking? If the latter, the delays on getting the AC bonus from Bladesinger and hit points from Con 14 may be concerning. If the former, it's not obvious what you hope to get from Bladesinger that makes it worth giving up Rogue progression. I'd say either take levels 2-6 as Bladesinger to get access to Haste and Fireball or just take Arcane Trickster to at least level 13, again to get Haste, before considering multiclassing.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Yeah, I plan to hit-and-run a lot early on. That seems to be a viable strategy from reading on AT/BS I've done elsewhere, especially with the disincentive to chasing that BB's rider provides. Eventually I expect I'll be able to off-tank decently with 13 (MA)+5 (Dex)+3 (Int)+5 (Shield)=26 AC plus Mirror Image. I agree though that the levels before Resilient (Con)+Bladesong+Mage Armor+Mirror Image seem somewhat rough survivability-wise if I'm not careful. Fortunately we have a Cleric and an Abjuration Wizard in the party.

    The point of Bladesinger is for the bonus to AC and to speed up and increase overall spell slot gain as well as spells known. Not to mention the 13th- and 17th-level features of AT are lackluster. I don't plan on using Haste since Shadow Blade requires Concentration. If I end up acquiring a magical weapon that competes with 3d8 or 4d8 Psychic damage+advantage enabler I might stop using Shadow Blade in favor of Haste, but for now I'm not assuming that I will.
    Last edited by omniknight; 2018-11-10 at 02:42 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Aug 2018

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    If you have either Resilient (CON) or Warcaster or both, Haste is the best option unless you have a caster in your party willing to buff you.

    A single rapier is not as good as two daggers because if you miss, you do 0 DPR for that turn. If you do choose to use one (like I did) pick up a shield and Warcaster (you'll be able to use shields because of Bladesinger Wizard). Definitely choose Booming Blade and possibly even Sentinel and/or Mobile. 16 INT is more than enough because of Magical Ambush. Remember to keep a longbow on you at all times for when you need to perform a ranged Sneak Attack.

    9 Levels in Bladesinger, however, might be too much, especially since you are choosing Elven Accuracy (DEX), which synergizes with Versatile Trickster (bonus action advantage) and the d6's from Sneak Attack. I would do Arcane Trickster Rogue 17 or 18 and Bladesinger Wizard 2 or 3.

    Also, if you're going to be in melee range, you need to improve your Constitution. I suggest taking 4 points out of CHA and placing it in CON--it has the added effect of improving concentration checks and saving throws, which is extremely important since you plan on using Haste. Specter, hopefully, will see this thread and comment. He, and others (Unoriginal, PeteNutButter, Citan, etc.), provided valuable information for me when I was building my Arcane Trickster.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    If you have either Resilient (CON) or Warcaster or both, Haste is the best option unless you have a caster in your party willing to buff you.
    My party's Wizard may be willing to cast and maintain Haste on me sometimes. Even if he doesn't, I don't see how Resilient or War Caster has anything to do with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    A single rapier is not as good as two daggers because if you miss, you do 0 DPR for that turn.
    With this build a rapier is far superior to two daggers because my bonus action will usually be used to Disengage, and sometimes to Hide or Dash. Because of this I will rarely want to stick around to use the bonus action to attack with an offhand weapon with no bonus ability damage, especially when I want to require the target to voluntarily move so they get zapped by Booming Blade's rider and especially early on when my survivability is low.

    I could see two-weapon fighting with an offhand magical dagger once I start using Shadow Blade and my defenses are vastly improved, but that will not be for many levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    If you do choose to use one (like I did) pick up a shield and Warcaster (you'll be able to use shields because of Bladesinger Wizard).
    Not true, Bladesinger does not provide shield proficiency and the Bladesong feature even explicitly states that it ends prematurely if a shield is equipped:

    It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, or if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon.
    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    Definitely choose Booming Blade and possibly even Sentinel and/or Mobile. 16 INT is more than enough because of Magical Ambush. Remember to keep a longbow on you at all times for when you need to perform a ranged Sneak Attack.
    I've got Booming Blade already. Sentinel and/or Mobile are is not critical but also not a bad idea for a later ASI. Remember that Int also bumps AC. Yes, I will always carry a ranged weapon as a backup option.

    I changed my mind on Mobile based on your suggestion. It actually looks amazing with this build specifically because disengagement becomes free rather than requiring a bonus action. Therefore I'm always guaranteed a safe escape which increases both my survivability and the likelihood that the target voluntarily moves (and takes damage from BB's rider). Thanks for the suggestion!

    Also, I agree that increasing Int is not critical. The +1 AC would be nice but I'm starved for ASIs as it is. I've moved +2 Int from a mandatory ASI to an optional one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    9 Levels in Bladesinger, however, might be too much, especially since you are choosing Elven Accuracy (DEX), which synergizes with Versatile Trickster (bonus action advantage) and the d6's from Sneak Attack. I would do Arcane Trickster Rogue 17 or 18 and Bladesinger Wizard 2 or 3.
    Versatile Trickster seems close to useless for this build in my opinion. Between the Owl familiar's Flyby Help and Shadow Blade's advantage enabler (plus numerous other ways to gain attack advantage via allies) I expect to have advantage 80%+ of the time without having to spend a bonus action to do so. Spell Thief is even more niche in its usefulness and therefore both lackluster features incentivize multiclassing beyond AT 12.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expected View Post
    Also, if you're going to be in melee range, you need to improve your Constitution. I suggest taking 4 points out of CHA and placing it in CON--it has the added effect of improving concentration checks and saving throws, which is extremely important since you plan on using Haste.
    As stated in the original post I'm the party's face so I need the additional Charisma. I figure smart play, high AC, Rogue's various defensive features, and a party with a Cleric+Abj Wizard should be enough to keep me alive. Also, I'm going to be using Shadow Blade which requires Concentration, so no self-Hasting.
    Last edited by omniknight; 2018-11-10 at 02:43 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Orc in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Aug 2018

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    You're right about the lack of shield proficiency from Bladesinger Wizard. I am glad you caught my mistake.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Quote Originally Posted by omniknight View Post
    I'm starting soon in a W:DH campaign with expectations to continue through WD:DotMM later. There are four PCs - Barbarian, Cleric, Wizard, Rogue (me). I'm acting as the resident skill monkey and face together with decent DPR. The DM allows any character builds built from official WoTC source material. At the moment I've settled on the following (with props to Ogeeogelthorpe):

    Class & Level: Rogue 1
    Background & Alignment: Charlatan CG (RPing a Robin Hood-esque orphan-turned-fake Elven noble who steals and forges documents from the rich and gives to the poor)
    Race: Aereni Elf (High Elf Variant)
    Darkvision (60'), Fey Ancestry, Trace
    Tool Profs: Thieves' tools, Disguise Kit, Forgery Kit
    Languages: Common, Elvish, Undercommon, Thieves' Cant
    Cantrip: Booming Blade

    Abilities: 8 Str, 17 Dex, 13 Con, 16 Int, 8 Wis, 12 Cha
    Skill Profs: Acrobatics (5), Deception (5), Investigation (5), Perception (3), Persuasion (3), Sleight of Hand (5), Stealth (7)
    Expertise: Deception, Perception, Stealth

    Note - I realized after originally posting this that Booming Blade+offhand attack isn't actually possible.

    • Rogue 1
    • HP: 9
    • AC: 14
    • ST Profs: Dex, Int
    • Damage estimate [BB (Rapier)] (+5): 1d8 (R) + 1d6 (SA) + 1d8 (BB) + 3 = 15.5 average Piercing/Thunder damage (assumes the target willingly moves because I Disengaged to safety)

    For simplicity, the above does not factor in OAs, criticals, or magic items.

    ASIs:

    • Elven Accuracy (Dex)
    • Resilient (Con)
    • Mobile
    • +2 DEX
    • +2 INT?
    • War Caster?
    • Lucky?
    • Sentinel?
    • Alert?
    • Mage Slayer?
    • Skilled?
    • Tough?
    • Fey Teleportation?

    At level 3 I will specialize as an Arcane Trickster and then eventually multiclass into Bladesinger. I will probably continue with AT until at least level 4 to get that first ASI. From there I'm not sure if I should switch to Bladesinger or stay with AT until 6-8. I will eventually utilize Shadow Blade, Owl familiar's Flyby Help, or Versatile Trickster to attain guaranteed attack advantage.

    I originally planned for AT 11/BS 9 at level 20, but now I've settled on AT 16/BS 4. I lose out on L4/L5 spells, a couple of spell slots, and several spells known but I gain: slightly more HP, +2d6 SA (!), Versatile Trickster, Blindsense, Slippery Mind (!!), and a 6th ASI (!!). I can still upcast SB as a 5th-level spell for 4d8 once per day. Spell slot difference:

    Code:
    Level	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
    9th	4	3	3	3	1	-	-	-	-
    12th	4	3	3	3	2	1	-	-	-

    Compared to AT 18/BS 2, AT 16/BS 4 loses a minor amount of HP, +1d6 SA, Spell Thief (meh), and Elusive. But it gains two spell slots, an ASI, a Wizard cantrip and several Wizard spells known. Spell slot difference:

    Code:
    Level	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th
    8th	4	3	3	2	-	-	-	-	-
    9th	4	3	3	3	1	-	-	-	-

    • Arcane Trickster 16 / Bladesinger 4
    • HP: 8 + 15d8 + 4d6 + 40 = 139
    • AC: 13 (MA) + 5 (Dex) + 3 (Int) + 5 (Shield) = 26 + Mirror Image
    • ST Profs: Con, Dex, Int, Wis
    • Damage estimate [SB+offhand] (+11/+12): 4d8 (SB) + 1d4 (D) + 8d6 (SA) + 5 + 1 = 54.50 average Psychic/Piercing damage (for comparison)
    • Damage estimate [BB (SB)] (+11): 4d8 (SB) + 8d6 (SA) + 3d8 (BB) + 5 = 64.5 average Psychic/Thunder damage (assumes the target does not move)
    • Damage estimate [BB (SB)] (+11): 4d8 (SB) + 8d6 (SA) + 7d8 (BB) + 5 = 82.5 average Psychic/Thunder damage (assumes the target willingly moves)

    For simplicity, the above does not factor in OAs, criticals, or magic items except dagger+1. Of course, a magical finesse weapon with worthwhile utility should be possible to acquire by level 20. Also, the assumption that the target does not move and therefore does not get hit by BB's rider is less likely to be true than the alternative, I think. This is because disengagement should almost always happen; either as a Disengage bonus action or free disengagement via Mobile.

    I'm mainly looking for assistance on a level progression path, but I'm open to all optimization suggestions within the character concept (skill monkey/face/maximizing Shadow Blade and Elven Accuracy).
    Hi!

    Well, if you really wanted to maximize Shadow Blade I'd say more Wizard is the only real way. ^^
    As a side note, Wizard 5 would grant you Haste (so for hit and run you're pretty safe XD) and 6 Extra Attack (against high AC, better chance to deal damage than all or nothing Booming Blade).

    But you seem set up on final split so I won't pursue this further.
    So for a R 16 / W 4, I'd personally take the following.
    R1, R2, W1, R3, R4 (Elven), W2, R5, W3, R6, then the last Wizard level whenever you need an ASI, and until then Rogue all the way.

    Reasons behind this order.

    1. You really want Cunning Action ASAP since you want to hit and run, and nothing is best for that than free Dash or Disengage as bonus action.

    2. Getting at least one level of Wizard as early as possible...
    - Gives you the maximum chance of writing extra spells you may find during adventuring (you won't always have the option to take and keep scrolls to study later).
    - Gives you immediately an array of spells between combat and out, so you have immediately things to use slots on outside combat: not randomly, I'll pick Comprehend Languages and Disguise Self. Plus immediately Find Familiar AND Shield AND Absorb Elements AND Fog Cloud (Hide!). Then also cantrips: Booming Blade AND Minor Illusion.
    - Allows you to boost your spell known by 2 every level since you can swap Arcane Tricskter's known spells (after writing them in your book obviously).

    3. Once that's set, taking the AT for Invisible Mage Hand is the logical step to get Elven Accuracy, that you can pair with advantage gotten from either...
    - Hiding behind a Fog Cloud to attack from range (honestly at low level Booming Blade is not worth risking your own hide -but then you get Elven Accuracy right for character level 5 when it starts being interesting).
    - Or casting a Grease to make people slip down and get prone while you graciously stay standing (high DEX + proficiency) then land Booming Blade (which *also* ensures, more or less, enemy will take extra damage because it will certainly prefer standing up than staying down). Other spells to generate advantage would be Earth Tremor (difficult terrain is less important to you) and later Web.

    4. And now the last touch: Bladesong to enhance your mobility and resilience even more, especially if you stack it with a Longstrider before toughest fights (meaning you pretty much can Disengage every turn and still have enough speed to outrun most foes).

    5. Honestly I hesitated much between Uncanny Dodge or Shadow Blade + Mirror Images for the next steps. So if you're rather have Shadow Blade as soon as possible switch both.

    Quote Originally Posted by omniknight View Post
    1. My party's Wizard may be willing to cast and maintain Haste on me sometimes. Even if he doesn't, I don't see how Resilient or War Caster has anything to do with it.

    2. I changed my mind on Mobile based on your suggestion. It actually looks amazing with this build specifically because disengagement becomes free rather than requiring a bonus action. Therefore I'm always guaranteed a safe escape which increases both my survivability and the likelihood that the target voluntarily moves (and takes damage from BB's rider). Thanks for the suggestion!

    Also, I agree that increasing Int is not critical. The +1 AC would be nice but I'm starved for ASIs as it is. I've moved +2 Int from a mandatory ASI to an optional one.



    3. Versatile Trickster seems close to useless for this build in my opinion. Between the Owl familiar's Flyby Help and Shadow Blade's advantage enabler (plus numerous other ways to gain attack advantage via allies) I expect to have advantage 80%+ of the time without having to spend a bonus action to do so. Spell Thief is even more niche in its usefulness and therefore both lackluster features incentivize multiclassing beyond AT 12.


    4. As stated in the original post I'm the party's face so I need the additional Charisma. I figure smart play, high AC, Rogue's various defensive features, and a party with a Cleric+Abj Wizard should be enough to keep me alive. Also, I'm going to be using Shadow Blade which requires Concentration, so no self-Hasting.
    Additional things while catching up with thread. ;)
    1. What you don't see is that if you have to cast it yourself, you'd have to be very attentive not to see concentration break at a bad moment (read: in middle of enemies XD) because you'd be completely helpless for the next round. Hence the usual recommendation to grab at least Resilient OR Warcaster, or better both.

    2. Mobile is one usual feat of choice for this dual-class, and I'm one of the people recommending it the most often. However, for your particular build, it may not be that good, or at least not as high priority as others (*ahem* Warcaster possibly *ahem*).
    Because from what I see, past a certain level, your routine will be cast Shadow Blade then go into melee and use Booming Blade, meaning no special use for bonus action. If you also take into account potential Longstrider from yourself or pal, and Bladesong, as I said above, bonus action Disengage is nice.
    With that said, it is still a great feat and maybe I simply missed something in your plans that included regular use of bonus action for something else. Plus one very important advantage of it is that it works, even when you are out of Longstrider/Bladesong/Haste/whatever so if you like it, go for it, maybe even before Warcaster depending on following points and your playstyle.

    3. I overall agree with you, but then why stick with Rogue so far? I honestly think that 2d6 more Sneak Attack and Resilient Wisdom is really inferior to access to 3rd (there is not juste Haste, there is also Slow which will be an encounter-winner once you get Magical Ambush, same with Fear/Hypnotic Pattern), 4th spells (exactly the same with Polymorph/Banishment, and you could also get Greater Invisibility or Conjure Minor Elementals, or Fire Shield)... And Extra Attack for when you really want to deal *some* damage (which also means you can stack a bonus action attack for even more chance, or simply use the first weapon attack to generate advantage by shoving prone with Expertise if you went that way).

    4. Honestly just being Expert should be largely enough to be a great party face even if you had 10 CHA. A one point difference won't usually matter often.
    So I'd tend to agree with the suggestion to siphon CHA for CON.
    If you stick by it, and you really want to optimize your concept, I'd actually lower DEX to 16, put the Elven Accuracy +1 into CHA and multiclass Warlock 1 by eating a Rogue level somewhere not too late (but not too early either, something like after char level 8-9 at least): you'll get Armor of Agathys that you can upscale and don't care about your CHA, Shield (that you just want always whatever happens) or Hex (great *also* out of combat), a short-rest slot to pair with for emergencies in fights and to use on Comprehend Languages/Disguise Self/Fog Cloud/Sleep/whatever outside, and even more utility cantrips. On top of that, Hexblade gives you much better damage against one particular enemy every short rest (improved critical is great with Elven Accuracy), or you could go GOO for telepathy with friends and familiar (or even trouble enemies), or Raven Queen for a great raven sentinel, or Celestial for Cleric cantrips and "1 Healing Words per long rest".
    And you honestly don't need more than 16 DEX for the first half of your career, if you are sure you can generate advantage most of the time. You'll just need to raise it to 18 at some point for when you go against higher AC (19+).
    Last edited by Citan; 2018-11-10 at 04:59 PM.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Thanks for the feedback, Citan! There's a lot to your reply for me to consider so I won't reply to everything. But one thing I want to mention is that while you were responding I actually changed my build considerably...again. I decided I don't like AT 16/B 4 due to the limited number of 3rd-level spells. Sorry I wasted your time on that!

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    R1, R2, W1, R3, R4 (Elven), W2, R5, W3, R6, then the last Wizard level whenever you need an ASI, and until then Rogue all the way.

    Reasons behind this order.
    I agree with your level progression logic for the first five levels at least. That is most likely what I will do for W:DH which is a 1-5 campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Because from what I see, past a certain level, your routine will be cast Shadow Blade then go into melee and use Booming Blade, meaning no special use for bonus action. If you also take into account potential Longstrider from yourself or pal, and Bladesong, as I said above, bonus action Disengage is nice.
    Well, that's only true for the first round of combat. Once the Shadow Blade is out I have my bonus action again to Disengage if need be. And with Mobile I don't expect I'll need to Disengage all that often to run away, and instead I'll use the bonus action to attack with my offhand dagger.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    4. Honestly just being Expert should be largely enough to be a great party face even if you had 10 CHA. A one point difference won't usually matter often.
    So I'd tend to agree with the suggestion to siphon CHA for CON.
    I'm not sure what dropping Cha to 10 by itself gets me. Sure, I could then bump Con to 14 at level 1 but then when I take Resilient (Con) I'll end up with 15 Con. Seems like a waste.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    If you stick by it, and you really want to optimize your concept, I'd actually lower DEX to 16, put the Elven Accuracy +1 into CHA and multiclass Warlock 1 by eating a Rogue level somewhere not too late (but not too early either, something like after char level 8-9 at least): you'll get Armor of Agathys that you can upscale and don't care about your CHA, Shield (that you just want always whatever happens) or Hex (great *also* out of combat), a short-rest slot to pair with for emergencies in fights and to use on Comprehend Languages/Disguise Self/Fog Cloud/Sleep/whatever outside, and even more utility cantrips. On top of that, Hexblade gives you much better damage against one particular enemy every short rest (improved critical is great with Elven Accuracy), or you could go GOO for telepathy with friends and familiar (or even trouble enemies), or Raven Queen for a great raven sentinel, or Celestial for Cleric cantrips and "1 Healing Words per long rest".
    And you honestly don't need more than 16 DEX for the first half of your career, if you are sure you can generate advantage most of the time. You'll just need to raise it to 18 at some point for when you go against higher AC (19+).
    Eh, not crazy about the Warlock dip suggestion. I'm already going to be up to my eyeballs in cantrips between AT and Wizard, for one. Armor of Agathys seems like it'll generally be a waste of a spell slot as I'm going to be doing everything I can to avoid getting hit in the first place. Hex requires concentration, which conflicts with Shadow Blade. The Hexblade Curse and especially the short rest spell slot seem very nice, but I don't think these justify the opportunity cost of qualifying for Warlock (not to mention the AT/BS delay overall).
    Last edited by omniknight; 2018-11-10 at 08:52 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Specter's Avatar

    Join Date
    May 2015
    Location
    Brazil

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Thw guide on my signature may help.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2014

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Yeah, I found your guide already and did skim through it. I adjusted some of my plans for AT spell selection and feats from it. Thanks.

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    If you want to stick to "1 attack with BB/GFB" I don't think Bladesigner is that good at all. Have you thought about a pure AT?

    You get Shadow Blade at AT lvl 7 or at BS lvl 3, whatever comes first.

    In the leveling order "R1, R2, W1, R3, R4, W2, R5, W3, R6," you get Shadow Blade at lvl 8. Later than a pure AT!

    If you really want to maximize BB and use the mobile feat and or disengage, you don't need the AC form Bladesong. Getting all your Rogue features 3(!) levels earlier might be much better for you.

    The real benefit of Bladesinger is the second attack at lvl 6 with full caster levels imo.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    I would probably go AT straight to 11 and then switch over to Bladesinger, mostly because Reliable Talent is one of my favorite abilities in the game and I'd want to get it as fast as possible. That build would also get you your ASIs as quickly as possible. Make sure you pick Scimitars as your free Bladesinger weapon proficiency on the off chance you can get your hands on a Scimitar of Speed. It's completely BONKERS in the hands of a rogue that can use it.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Jun 2018

    Default Re: Any suggestions for improvement on this Arcane Trickster/Bladesinger build?

    Go forth and destroy, my student. And don't forget to snag synaptic static and hold monster if you go 11/9. Cast those from hiding at higher levels and you can totally piss off your DM and impress your party.

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