OOTS #1146 - The Discussion Thread

[Kish]

Zimmer, really. Durkon was established at least level 15 even treating the Order's levels as entirely disconnected; hiding in technicalities to argue for it not being abbreviating his growth to stop him from ever getting to 17 is unworthy of you.

That said, the idea I'm fighting here, is that they all grew up to the same level at the same time, regardless of individual experiences, death, this kind of thing that usually makes levels differ. Because the only evidence shown to back this theory is in the lines of "I think it's so", and back in Class and Level Geekery, we try to use, you know, evidence.

Evidence such as "Belkar understood the concept of Explosive Runes when it repeatedly demonstrated and then explained to him, so he has Spellcraft," yes.

If I was posting for something to be added to that thread it would make sense to bring it in. I'm not.

[Keltest]

I take it you're using "their" as a third-person singular pronoun? Because the only person whose leveling needs to be capped because of Vaarsuvius's current level is Vaarsuvius.

There are any number of ways of making sure Vaarsuvius does not gain experience while the rest of the Order does. Most of them are long-standing staples of the comic.

We all know that you would love to see V written out of the comic for reasons that make sense only to yourself, theres no need to remind us.

The fact that the order is getting more powerful is basically inescapable. It has in fact been a necessary reality since at least W&XP, where they failed to combat Xykon and Redcloak rather spectacularly.

However, as you say, there are already plenty of ways to take V out of the action if their potential effect on a situation becomes problematic. I don't see why they then also need to have their power curbed on top of that. You only need one solution to that problem.

[zimmerwald1915]

We all know that you would love to see V written out of the comic for reasons that make sense only to yourself, theres no need to remind us.

The fact that the order is getting more powerful is basically inescapable. It has in fact been a necessary reality since at least W&XP, where they failed to combat Xykon and Redcloak rather spectacularly.

However, as you say, there are already plenty of ways to take V out of the action if their potential effect on a situation becomes problematic. I don't see why they then also need to have their power curbed on top of that. You only need one solution to that problem.

Durkon reaching 9ths is more of a problem than Vaarsuvius reaching 9ths. Vaarsuvius's spellbook is easy to limit if need be. But Durkon knows his whole list, and true resurrection has been referenced as existing and being castable by "17th-level Clerics." Miracle has not been mentioned, but the same holds true of it as of true resurrection. Mr. Burlew has said that TR is "story-breaking," and would not feature. The only way to achieve that is either to retcon it out of existence (and yes, it would be a retcon since it was mentioned in DStP; we could not pretend it never existed at all), or to cap Durkon at 16th level.

Or just have him refuse to use it on principle or something.

[Keltest]

Durkon reaching 9ths is more of a problem than Vaarsuvius reaching 9ths. Vaarsuvius's spellbook is easy to limit if need be. But Durkon knows his whole list, and true resurrection has been referenced as existing and being castable by "17th-level Clerics." Miracle has not been mentioned, but the same holds true of it as of true resurrection. Mr. Burlew has said that TR is "story-breaking," and would not feature. The only way to achieve that is either to retcon it out of existence (and yes, it would be a retcon since it was mentioned in DStP; we could not pretend it never existed at all), or to cap Durkon at 16th level.

Or just have him refuse to use it on principle or something.

There are ways of preventing even true rez from working, if that specifically is the concern. Durkon will never resurrect Eugene or Gerard Draketooth, for example, because they died of old age. Victims of the Snarl are also likely beyond resurrection of any sort. Given that the story is so close to its end, its also unlikely that "the quest to resurrect a member of the Order" is going to be a plot point for a third time, so its no longer going to ruin that particular approach. And, of course, should Durkon die again, theyre still out of luck there, so its not like total combat failure stops being a risk. Rich might not like it conceptually, but theres no reason it needs to feature prominently enough to cause problems at this point.

[Dion]

Or just have him refuse to use it on principle or something.

I apologize that I’m missing part of the argument? Who are we speculating that Durkon (or any other cleric with the potential to cast 9th level spells during the story arc, such as RedCloak) would use True Res on?

[Ruck]

All of which require/hinge on/consist of abbreviating their growth now, since Vaarsuvius is level 16 now.

I thought it was level 17, based on the math behind the Forcecage duration here.

[danielxcutter]

I thought it was level 17, based on the math behind the Forcecage duration here.

Orange Prism Ioun Stone(turned into a bracelet for Blackwing) gives a +1 CL boost.

[Ruck]

Ah, yes, thank you. (And also I just realized if V had 9th-level spells, we probably would have seen them in that battle, unless they were drained.)

[danielxcutter]

Ah, yes, thank you. (And also I just realized if V had 9th-level spells, we probably would have seen them in that battle, unless they were drained.)

Well they probably would have been drained anyways since they'd be the highest level slots V had, but yeah.

It's also the likely reason why V hasn't shown their other 8th-level spell they'd have learned this level. Wonder what it was? Probably Sunburst?

[Ironsmith]

Or just have him refuse to use it on principle or something.

Durkon might be a bit particular about using it, on account of how the Dwarven afterlife works (and there being very few other people he would want to cast it on to begin with), but a thought occurs; don't we have a much less scrupulous, aggrieved cleric of the goblin persuasion who might attempt it, or something like it, at some point?

[TheNecrocomicon]

The only way to achieve that is either to retcon it out of existence (and yes, it would be a retcon since it was mentioned in DStP; we could not pretend it never existed at all), or to cap Durkon at 16th level.

Or just have him refuse to use it on principle or something.

Or, as a simpler option, he and the party could just not be able to find enough diamonds (or a high-enough-value diamond) to serve as the material component for the spell.

Just because something is on the list available to a Cleric doesn't invalidate other necessary requirements to actually cast the spell in question.

[Peelee]

Or, as a simpler option, he and the party could just not be able to find enough diamonds (or a high-enough-value diamond) to serve as the material component for the spell.

Just because something is on the list available to a Cleric doesn't invalidate other necessary requirements to actually cast the spell in question.

Demonstrated by Roy being dead for a long time.

[hroþila]

it would be a retcon since it was mentioned in DStP; we could not pretend it never existed at all

No, but we could pretend they had meta knowledge of something that doesn't actually exist in this universe even though they thought it did. This is implied to be a possibility by the fact that Redcloak knew about psionics without being sure whether it was a thing in this setting.

[Morty]

It's entirely possible that a situation where someone needs to be raised and nothing short of True Resurrection would do the trick simply won't occur to the Order before the story is over. Or if it does, they won't have enough diamonds for it. They might spend all their diamonds here, for all we know, and shopping trips are unlikely from here on.

Furthermore, Durkon has to prepare True Resurrection. He can't just cast it willy-nilly. And since 9th level slots are a precious commodity, it's rather questionable that he'd prepare it unless he had a very good reason to believe someone might die in a way that Resurrection won't fix. Which means it'd only be a problem if someone died in such a way and Durkon had enough time to rest and prepare it. Which, again, is hardly a given.

[Kish]

It's entirely possible that a situation where someone needs to be raised and nothing short of True Resurrection would do the trick simply won't occur to the Order before the story is over.

Yes, this.

Rich has written around True Resurrection* for nearly six books out of seven so far, plus prequels. I see no reason to expect he won't continue to do so. Durkon hasn't expressed a desire to True Resurrect anyone.

*Insofar as he's never had anyone cast it on-panel. It was a fairly big plot point in Start of Darkness that it couldn't bring back Lirian...but it still couldn't bring back any of the prior gate guardians, if that's something Durkon would want to do.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon hasn't expressed a desire to True Resurrect anyone.

He has expressed a desire to raise Tenrin, bu that was along time ago and they have much more pressing problems right now, though.

[Dion]

My guess is that most (if not all) pantheons already have at least one 17th level cleric. Otherwise, Thor wouldn’t be proposing a plan that requires a 17th level cleric from each pantheon.

If the existence of 17th level clerics hasn’t broken the story yet, I don’t imagine Durkon reaching 17th level would have much impact either way.

[Fyraltari]

My guess is that most (if not all) pantheons already have at least one 17th level cleric. Otherwise, Thor wouldn’t be proposing a plan that requires a 17th level cleric from each pantheon.

If the existence of 17th level clerics hasn’t broken the story yet, I don’t imagine Durkon reaching 17th level would have much impact either way.

Thor isn't proposing a plan that requires a 17th-level Cleric from every pantheon. He needs Redcloak to cast a 9-th level spell so that the other gods can access some of the Dark One's power. He describes it as "a drop or so", implying that the contribution of the other pantheons would be orders of magnitude higher. If they needed Clerics to channel that, they would need way more than 17-th level Clerics.

Anyway, the problem is not wether 17th level Clerics exiting (they do, see Redcloak) would cause issue with the storytelling, but wether a 17th level Cleric protagonist would. However in light of the arguments upthread it seems it wouldn't. Which doesn't mean Durkon will absolutely reach the 17th before the last page of the last book either.

[D.One]

He has expressed a desire to raise Tenrin, bu that was along time ago and they have much more pressing problems right now, though.

And he seems to have accepted his mother's words [same strip] that, since he's on Valhalla, bringing him back wouldn't be the best for him.

[Fyraltari]

And he seems to have accepted his mother's words [same strip] that, since he's on Valhalla, bringing him back wouldn't be the best for him.

He actually accepted that bringing him back rather than saving Thirden & Co would not have been moral. He even says he still struggles to that decision to this day.

EDIT: I am expecting Tenrin and Durkon to meet in the next handful of strips. Durkon really needs someone to tell him he makes them proud.

[Rrmcklin]

Durkon admitted to still having mixed feelings about his mother's choice and reasoning, even though he now mostly understands and admires her for it.

Regardless, it's not like you can resurrect a character against their will. Though, yes, I imagine that Durkon wouldn't try to resurrect his father. He'd just do his best to die with honor to eventually get to finally meet him. Although by the time the comic is up, I feel fairly confident in saying the system for the dwarves will be different.

[KorvinStarmast]

I did get to handle his lecture notes and a few of his doodles once at Oxford. While very cool, it was a grounding experience for my impression of the man, as I can now appreciate just how bored he was at faculty meetings.

Possibly a higher quality version of "buzzword bingo" that I've played at meetings .

As to Redcloak and True Rez, if he tried to bring his brother back, might his brother/brother's soul decline (as Shojo did to raise dead) for his own reasons?

... spell functions like raise dead, except that you can resurrect a creature that has been dead for as long as 10 years per caster level.

Raise dead requires a willing soul.

You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return.

[Keltest]

Possibly a higher quality version of "buzzword bingo" that I've played at meetings .

As to Redcloak and True Rez, if he tried to bring his brother back, might his brother/brother's soul decline (as Shojo did to raise dead) for his own reasons?


Raise dead requires a willing soul.

Besides probably being quite happy with the afterlife, Right-eye was already close to the end of the goblin lifespan when he died.

[Peelee]

As to Redcloak and True Rez, if he tried to bring his brother back, might his brother/brother's soul decline (as Shojo did to raise dead) for his own reasons?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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I don't see any reason why anyone would claim that Right Eye would be willing to come back for anyone, let alone for Redcloak. His last day was a doozy.

[martianmister]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

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I don't see any reason why anyone would claim that Right Eye would be willing to come back for anyone

Spoiler

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What about his daughter?

[mjasghar]

Maybe the Dwarves have been working with solid stone and building into mountains so much they forgot...
how to make CONCRETE
I can just imagine that since this is OoTS it would be that literal - using a combo of pulverised mountain rock and create water spells to entomb the vampires in concrete

[martianmister]

Demonstrated by Roy being dead for a long time.

Only because Haley, Celia and Belkar were ridiculously ineffectual at their job.

[zimmerwald1915]

Demonstrated by Roy being dead for a long time.

Not really. The only time material components became an issue, it was solved with a fourth wall joke - and a legitimate way of getting around it was pointed out at the same time.

[Fyraltari]

Only because Haley, Celia and Belkar were ridiculously ineffectual at their job.

Not really. The only time material components became an issue, it was solved with a fourth wall joke - and a legitimate way of getting around it was pointed out at the same time.

I think peelee counts "being near said Cleric" as a requirement for the Cleric to cast the spell.
In the case of True Rez, the Cleric still need to know there is someone to resurect and whom.


By the way, does anyone have any idea just what the Exarch has up his sleeve that would be so problematic to Roy? I don't think Team Hel has much fire/dwarfpower left so it wouldn't be a fight. Could they somehow prevent them from telling the head dwarves what the vampires are up to?

[Peelee]

Spoiler

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What about his daughter?

Spoiler

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And potentially compromise her safety?

Not really. The only time material components became an issue, it was solved with a fourth wall joke - and a legitimate way of getting around it was pointed out at the same time.

Huh. Wonder why Durkon just didn't Rez Roy on the boat then. Silly Durkon!