3.5 Druid ACF Shapeshift

[OZtgap]

I know this ACF is weaker than just staying a standard Druid. I like the play style and don’t want to play a true tier1 class anyway.

My questions
1. It says I grow in size one category in Ferocious Slayer form. As a human Druid this would mean that as well as the other stat changes listed I would also gain an additional +2 strength modifier for size as well as a -2 Dex, -1 to hit and -1 to ac? Is that correct?

Also since it lists the strength bonus and the attack bonus the form conveys as enhancement bonus this seems to make it very hard to buff. Bulls strength is an enhancement bonus as is the forms strength bonus so the they would not stack. Most of the spells that buff natural weapons also read as enhancement bonuses so that makes them un stackable with the forms enhancement bonuses it gets after 4th level.

Am I understanding this incorrectly?

[Crake]

You ONLY get the -1 attack/AC, -4 hide and +4 to various maneuvers. The +2 str -2 dex is specifically a benefit that enlarge person grants, it is not a standard for increasing in size.

The only adjustments you gain from shapeshifting are the ones listed.

[OZtgap]

You ONLY get the -1 attack/AC, -4 hide and +4 to various maneuvers. The +2 str -2 dex is specifically a benefit that enlarge person grants, it is not a standard for increasing in size.

The only adjustments you gain from shapeshifting are the ones listed.

Thanks for that! Any clue on the buffs?

[DrMotives]

Thanks for that! Any clue on the buffs?

You are absolutely correct. The enhancement bonuses to you attack /damage as well as stats won't stack with things like "magic fang, cats grace, bulls strength". Or with most magic items. What you can use though is morale bonuses, from bards and bless spells. Prayer gives a luck bonus. There's also circumstance bonuses, sacred/profane bonuses, and of course anything with an untyped bonus stacks with other bonuses.

TL;DR, bard music and cleric spells will stack with your shapeshift while the other spells you mentioned won't.

[Fizban]

1. It says I grow in size one category in Ferocious Slayer form. As a human Druid this would mean that as well as the other stat changes listed I would also gain an additional +2 strength modifier for size as well as a -2 Dex, -1 to hit and -1 to ac? Is that correct?

As mentioned, nope, you don't add any other bonuses not mentioned. Not the bonuses from Enlarge Person, and absolutely not the bonuses from advancing monsters.

Also since it lists the strength bonus and the attack bonus the form conveys as enhancement bonus this seems to make it very hard to buff. Bulls strength is an enhancement bonus as is the forms strength bonus so the they would not stack.

That is correct, and is why they've made it an enhancement bonus. Because Wild Shape just giving you huge stats you can boost more with standard spells and items is the problem being solved. Shapeshift lets you use your existing high physical stats, and if you don't have high physical stats then shapeshift won't turn you into a combat god.

Most of the spells that buff natural weapons also read as enhancement bonuses so that makes them un stackable with the forms enhancement bonuses it gets after 4th level.

You also don't have to waste spell slots, buff rounds, or cash. Or deal with the limitations on how many weapons at what bonus, as Magic Fang/Greater and Necklace of Natural Weapons are actually quite specific.

[OZtgap]

Thanks for the answers! They helped out a lot. I still am going to run the ACF. It looks like fun and is worth the power hit.

[Gnaritas]

I am playing one now, and i love it! The power-drop i consider a bonus, since the druid is already strong.

[OZtgap]

I am playing one now, and i love it! The power-drop i consider a bonus, since the druid is already strong.

I am glad to hear you are enjoying it. I look at the power drop the same way. The play style also seems more fun.

[Hiro Quester]

In case you didn’t notice, growing in size you also get a bump in the damage dice for your weapon. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/...htm#weaponSize

[Fizban]

Shapeshift specifies the damage dice, but not to adjust them for the size. The dice are already sized based on the size you become, and you can't wield weapons in Shapeshift, so there's never a need to reference die changes for size unless you were non-medium to begin with.

[Crake]

Shapeshift specifies the damage dice, but not to adjust them for the size. The dice are already sized based on the size you become, and you can't wield weapons in Shapeshift, so there's never a need to reference die changes for size unless you were non-medium to begin with.

I allow druids to wield weapons in the forest avenger form, since it references being a treant-like form.

[Rhedyn]

I know Pathfinder had a Table to show the stat changes caused by size changes. Maybe 3.5 has one as well?

If so, then your dex/str would change.

[Crake]

I know Pathfinder had a Table to show the stat changes caused by size changes. Maybe 3.5 has one as well?

If so, then your dex/str would change.

There is a table in 3.5, however it is not the same. The 3.5 table is specifically for size changes gained from racial HD advancement (which was removed in pathfinder iirc). The table you're referring to is pathfinder's means of handing size changes with their system-wide polymorph changes. In 3.5, size changes and ability scores are all explicitly listed in the respective effects with which they're associated. If an ability says you gain +8 strength and increase a size category, that is all that happens.

[Fizban]

I allow druids to wield weapons in the forest avenger form, since it references being a treant-like form.

Even so, that's not the normal Shapeshift use- if they're allowed to and decide to use a weapon that way, then they've asked for the bother of changing the die size.

Personally I think weapon use is pretty obviously against the entire spirit of the Shapeshift rules. And for pedantry, "similar to a shambling mound or a treant" is not literally a Treant, and the Treant entry itself doesn't give any particular evidence that they can wield weapons or perform fine manipulation. I'd let Treants use the "dragon clause" where dragons are somehow capable of fine manipulation but incapable of wielding weapons because reasons, and I'd have the Forest Avenger form capable of only rough manipulation bending main branches.