Can contagion be dispelled?

[holywhippet]

Since contagion is a spell, does that mean it can be dispelled from a victim? Or perhaps just dispelled before 3 failed saves are made?

[Man_Over_Game]

Yes, it can. Dispel Magic effectively works on any spell who's duration isn't Instantaneous. In this case, Contagion's spell duration lasts 7 days.

Additionally, Contagion says that since it induces a natural disease, anything that affects diseases can impact the spell. This implies that the spell is still active during the duration, effectively causing the active disease.

So it's not that Contagion creates a natural disease that lasts up to 7 days. Contagion lasts up to 7 days and causes a natural disease upon you while it lasts. Since Contagion still lasts, you can target it with Dispel Magic, and doing so will remove the natural disease.

[holywhippet]

OK. Thanks. Another question - normally overlapping spell effects don't stack. But if a 6 characters all cast contagion on another one and picked a different disease each, could they all take effect?

[hymer]

OK. Thanks. Another question - normally overlapping spell effects don't stack. But if a 6 characters all cast contagion on another one and picked a different disease each, could they all take effect?

I'd rule yes. Since they are different effects (albeit from the same spell), there's no overlap.

[lperkins2]

OK. Thanks. Another question - normally overlapping spell effects don't stack. But if a 6 characters all cast contagion on another one and picked a different disease each, could they all take effect?

RAW, no. When two active spell effects are from spells of the same name, all but the 'strongest' one (as defined by the DM) is suppressed. This is to avoid effect stacking. Since diseases aren't buffs that stacking might mess with, there's probably no reason not to let orthogonal effects all happen.

At my table, I treat stacking spells a bit differently. Instead of spells of the same name suppressing all but one, I apply it per-effect, taking the strongest of each effect. Mostly this comes up with spells like enhance ability, which I let run in parallel as long as a different ability is selected each time.

[NaughtyTiger]

RAW, no. When two active spell effects are from spells of the same name, all but the 'strongest' one (as defined by the DM) is suppressed.

This is not a case where we can claim RAW.
RAW addresses the case where you have 2 paladin auras, +2, and +3.

But PHB is clear that diseases are unique and can be stacked.
From lessor restoration "You touch a creature and can end either one disease or one condition afflicting it. "
from paladin "expend 5 Hit Points from your pool of Healing to cure the target... You can cure multiple Diseases ... expending Hit Points separately for each one."

[Man_Over_Game]

I see where the concern is, but it really hinges on the term "spell effect". Is that "Every effect from a single spell", or "A single effect from a spell"?

For example, can you cast Blindness/Deafness on someone twice, and inflict both effects on a single target?

[Edit] After doing some research, it seems that the consensus is that if the triggering ability (like Contagion) for an effect has the same name for another effect, the durations combine but you only use the most potent version. Not sure how that applies to things like Blindness/Deafness or Contagion, but I'm going to dig a little deeper.

[NaughtyTiger]

What is the quote for the prohibition against stacking effects? (I am away from PHB)

[Man_Over_Game]

What is the quote for the prohibition against stacking effects? (I am away from PHB)

I don't have the full quote, but when they updated the DMG they released what the changes were. Here's the updated information:

Combining Game Effects (p. 252). This is a new subsection at the end of the “Combat” section: “Different game features can affect a target at the same time. But when two or more game features have the same name, only the effects of one of them—the most potent one—apply while the durations of the effects overlap. For example, if a target is ignited by a fire elemental’s Fire Form trait, the ongoing fire damage doesn’t increase if the burning target is subjected to that trait again. Game features include spells, class features, feats, racial traits, monster abilities, and magic items. See the related rule in the ‘Combining Magical Effects’ section of chapter 10 in the Player’s Handbook.”

[NaughtyTiger]

Bonuses and penalties provided by spells all add together while the durations of those spells overlap, except for one case. Unless noted otherwise, the effects of the same spell cast multiple times do not add up, including higher- or lower-level versions of the same spell. Instead, the highest bonus from those spells applies. Each spell still expires individually.

Make a melee spell attack. On hit, you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice from any of the ones described below.

So the crux is, is the Contagion spell effect that "you afflict the creature with a disease" or "you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice..."

I think you have to take the whole sentence of the spell. (so hymer's assertion)

A creature doesn't get the "diseased" condition. Having "disease" doesn't apply specific bonuses/penalties.
A creature gets a specific disease, and the specific disease applies the bonus/penalty.

If we rule that it is just the condition of being diseased, we have to determine which penalty is worse: Flesh Rot or Slimy Doom.

[Man_Over_Game]

So the crux is, is the Contagion spell effect that "you afflict the creature with a disease" or "you afflict the creature with a disease of your choice..."

I think you have to take the whole sentence of the spell. (so hymer's assertion)

A creature doesn't get the "diseased" condition. Having "disease" doesn't apply specific bonuses/penalties.
A creature gets a specific disease, and the specific disease applies the bonus/penalty.

If we rule that it is just the condition of being diseased, we have to determine which penalty is worse: Flesh Rot or Slimy Doom.

Right, but then you have to consider the fact that Contagion has a 7 day duration.

The spell lasts for 7 days. If you dispel it, the disease goes away. The disease IS the effect, caused by the Contagion spell, and RAW, you can't have two different effects if they come from two different castings of the same spell.

If Contagion didn't last 7 days (and only the disease did), I'd definitely agree with you.

[Man_Over_Game]

Found the relevant information. A Sage Advice Youtube video has Jeremy Crawford explaining how different spell effects from separate castings of the same spell work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWOsPhKNyPk&t=1520

At 25-30 minutes, he says:

"The next one on the stack replaces the previous one on the stack unless the previous one ... is more powerful."

[NaughtyTiger]

The spell lasts for 7 days. If you dispel it, the disease goes away. The disease IS the effect, caused by the Contagion spell,

This is a strong point. I am not convinced, but I am at least moved.

Consider multiple castings of Bestow curse:
would the newer "Wis save or do nothing" replace the older "attack have disad against me"?

[lperkins2]

This is not a case where we can claim RAW.
RAW addresses the case where you have 2 paladin auras, +2, and +3.

But PHB is clear that diseases are unique and can be stacked.
From lessor restoration "You touch a creature and can end either one disease or one condition afflicting it. "
from paladin "expend 5 Hit Points from your pool of Healing to cure the target... You can cure multiple Diseases ... expending Hit Points separately for each one."

As pointed out, the DMG doesn't talk at all about orthogonal effects. There are other ways to get diseases than just from the contagion spell, lesser restoration and the like can remove those diseases too.

[NaughtyTiger]

As pointed out, the DMG doesn't talk at all about orthogonal effects.

sorry, got lost, which part of the discussion said DMG doesn't talk about orthogonal effects? (not sure what orthogonal effects means either) and are you intending that as an argument for your interpretation?

[lperkins2]

sorry, got lost, which part of the discussion said DMG doesn't talk about orthogonal effects? (not sure what orthogonal effects means either) and are you intending that as an argument for your interpretation?

Orthogonal essentially means unrelated. So a +1 to Dex and a +1 to Str are orthogonal, while +1 to Dex and +2 to Dex are not.

The DMG doesn't say something like "spells which give bonuses to the same stat" or "spells which have the same effect" do not stack. It specifically says "spells with the same name".

This means that only one copy of Contagion or Blindness/Deafness can be active at a time. That doesn't mean a creature can only have one disease, only that the other disease(s) must be from a different source than Contagion. Likewise, a creature can be both blind and deaf, but not from two copies of the Blindness/Deafness spell.

I think the designers did it this way for simplicity, since determining same-spell-interactions might be a bit more complicated than they wanted. The problem is there's no good solution when it isn't clear which spell effect is 'more powerful'. I think it is perfectly reasonable to treat Blindness/Deafness as letting you cast Blindness or Deafness and treating those a separate spell sources for the purposes of stacking, but that isn't RAW.

[NaughtyTiger]

It specifically says "spells with the same name".

Yes it certainly does.

MoG and perky have swayed me to their side...

[lperkins2]

Yes it certainly does.

MoG and perky have swayed me to their side...

The more interesting question, I think, is what spells are likely to cause problems if we let their orthogonal effects stack. Given the concentration requirements on most duration spells, I can't really think of problems it's likely to cause.

[Man_Over_Game]

The more interesting question, I think, is what spells are likely to cause problems if we let their orthogonal effects stack. Given the concentration requirements on most duration spells, I can't really think of problems it's likely to cause.

Cast Bestow Curse at level 5 (8 hour duration, doesn't require Concentration).

Choose "Disadvantage on Wisdom Saving Throws."

Cast it again, choosing "Waste your turn if you fail a Wisdom Saving Throw at the start of your turns".

Proceed to dance around your enemy for the next 8 hours.

[NaughtyTiger]

Cast Bestow Curse at level 5 (8 hour duration, doesn't require Concentration).
Choose "Disadvantage on Wisdom Saving Throws."
Cast it again, choosing "Waste your turn if you fail a Wisdom Saving Throw at the start of your turns".
Proceed to dance around your enemy for the next 8 hours.

Eek, how does this happen? I think we have switched sides in the argument.

The disease curse IS the effect, caused by the Contagion Bestow Curse spell, and RAW, you can't have two different effects if they come from two different castings of the same spell.

The more interesting question, I think, is what spells are likely to cause problems if we let their orthogonal effects stack. Given the concentration requirements on most duration spells, I can't really think of problems it's likely to cause.

I am bothered by the idea of poor man's dispel:

Bob the warlock casts Hex (str) on me.
I, Warlock Jim, cast Hex(int) on myself.... removing Hex(str) from me, and then drop concentration.

[lperkins2]

Eek, how does this happen? I think we have switched sides in the argument.

The disease curse IS the effect, caused by the Contagion Bestow Curse spell, and RAW, you can't have two different effects if they come from two different castings of the same spell.

I asked what problems would it cause to let you stack multiple effects, MoG gave an excellent example of the kind of problems it would cause. As expected, the problems lie in spells that are not concentration.

[Man_Over_Game]

Eek, how does this happen? I think we have switched sides in the argument.

The disease curse IS the effect, caused by the Contagion Bestow Curse spell, and RAW, you can't have two different effects if they come from two different castings of the same spell.

I was posting that in response to:

The more interesting question, I think, is what spells are likely to cause problems if we let their orthogonal effects stack. Given the concentration requirements on most duration spells, I can't really think of problems it's likely to cause.

In which case, Bestow Curse is a really big problem. Two levels into Fighter for action surge, and cripple any boss with a single Wisdom save (since all future necessary saves will have disadvantage) on the first turn.

[NaughtyTiger]

I was posting that in response to:
In which case, Bestow Curse is a really big problem. Two levels into Fighter, and cripple any boss with a single Wisdom save (since all future saves will have disadvantage).

Oh, duh! ( i just assumed the quote was mine... didn't even read it)

That said, if you are burning 2 level 5 slots for it (T3), is that a bad thing?

[Man_Over_Game]

Oh, duh! ( i just assumed the quote was mine... didn't even read it)

That said, if you are burning 2 level 5 slots for it (T3), is that a bad thing?

I mean, you could just do the same thing with level 3 slots from two different players.

[stoutstien]

If you allow contagion to come online before 3 failed saves.(raw I know but clearly not Rai) then action surge is the least of the worries. I believe they errata that but can't remember

[Man_Over_Game]

I am bothered by the idea of poor man's dispel:

Bob the warlock casts Hex (str) on me.
I, Warlock Jim, cast Hex(int) on myself.... removing Hex(str) from me, and then drop concentration.

It doesn't quite work that way. The duration of the second one is put on top of the "stack", and once it ends, the first version is then applied with the lost duration as soon as the second version ends.

However, you could cast Hex on your friend and sustain it, I suppose. Hex only applies damage from the caster, not from anything else, so it'd only invoke more damage if you hit your ally, and does nothing for your opponent.

[lperkins2]

It doesn't quite work that way. The duration of the second one is put on top of the "stack", and once it ends, the first version is then applied with the lost duration as soon as the second version ends.

However, you could cast Hex on your friend and sustain it, I suppose. Hex only applies damage from the caster, not from anything else, so it'd only invoke more damage if you hit your ally, and does nothing for your opponent.

Actually, which one runs when they are essentially equivalent is unspecified. You could let the new one suppress the old, or you could have the first one run out before the second one comes active. It depends on which one the DM considers 'more powerful'. If one is cast using a higher level slot, a good case could be made for it being active, regardless of when it was cast. A case can be made to use the longer lasting (most recently cast) one, or the soonest expiring so that all effects get a time slice.

As for poor man's dispel, I don't actually have a problem with that, since it burns a spell slot, and requires exactly the same spell available, and takes the same action the bad guy used (plus eats concentration). D&D 3.5 let you counterspell if you had the same spell prepared, and it was more or less fine.

[Man_Over_Game]

Actually, which one runs when they are essentially equivalent is unspecified. You could let the new one suppress the old, or you could have the first one run out before the second one comes active. It depends on which one the DM considers 'more powerful'. If one is cast using a higher level slot, a good case could be made for it being active, regardless of when it was cast. A case can be made to use the longer lasting (most recently cast) one, or the soonest expiring so that all effects get a time slice.

I found a reference that explains exactly what happens in a Sage Advice Youtube video with Jeremy Crawford. It's in one of my previous posts.

JC said:

"The next one on the stack replaces the previous one on the stack unless the previous one ... is more powerful."