Guaranteeing CA off turn in heroic?

[masteraleph]

I’ve decided to play a rogue in a mid tier heroic game recently. What I forgot, though, is that the last time I played this rogue, it was in paragon, and plenty of the tricks I used to get CA aren’t available in heroic. Obviously there’s the first turn, and there’s always Cunning Stalker, and there’s flanking. But I’m looking to have CA off turn as well, and none of those options necessarily work when your enemy can shift. What am I missing at the moment?

[darkbard]

Are you considering only your own resources or also party composition, tricks? Clever Strike is an excellent AW to expand flanking maneuvers.

[masteraleph]

Not worried about on turn as much. More concerned about combat advantage for the off turn part of Riposte Strike. Last time I played the pc was in paragon and dealing cold damage, so hitting on turn then provided CA off turn via Lasting Frost and Wintertouched. But obviously that doesn’t function in heroic.

[darkbard]

Hunh. I've got nothing, then, aside from party dynamics (Shaman spirit companion, etc.). Perhaps MwaO will stop in. He's still super current in 4E CharOp.

[Lanaya]

Cunning stalker plus some shifts (via tumble, etc) is usually enough, if you have friends adjacent to the target you can flank and if you don't you'll usually have cunning stalker. If you really want to invest, you can take shadow initiate + cruel shroud, shroud up your target to gain CA and then not expend it, so you have CA on the target for the whole encounter, and it's a free action you can use twice per encounter. It's kind of overkill though. There's some other specific investments you could take that make enemies grant CA more broadly - go dragonborn so you can dragonfear the map once per encounter and go after someone who was hit, take son of alagondar as your theme so you can tag a daze onto the initial attack, stuff like that.

[tiornys]

Conveniently, the Assassin plan costs the same number of feats as Lasting Frost/Wintertouched and could therefore be retrained at Paragon.

There are several strategic/tactical solutions if you can get some party assistance. Lanaya mentioned the idea of setting up diagonal flanks along with Cunning Stalker, although that can be circumvented by enemy cooperation. Some others that came to mind:

• Vicious Advantage + characters who can readily Slow/Immobilize enemies
• Proning a flanked enemy so that a single move action still leaves them subject to CA from one of Prone or Flanked
• In synergy with both of the above, World Serpent's Grasp

Worth noting that Battle Awareness guarantees you at least one off-turn Sneak Attack chance per encounter against a flanked enemy since it lets you interrupt a shift out of flanking (or an attack against not-you), although it's obviously incompatible with the Assassin plan.

With a set party, I'd personally try to go for Vicious Advantage and party cooperation, bolstered by some personal status-effect infliction like Son of Alagondar, Low Slash, etc. If I wasn't sure I could get party cooperation, I'd go with Shadow Initiate+Cruel Shroud.

[masteraleph]

Huh, interesting set. Also (though I'm noting nobody has mentioned it), Mark of Storm/Deadly Draw. That, the assassin trick, and ultimately frost work best, I think.

BTW, by way of explanation- the goal here is to achieve CA off turn without flanking. The idea is Pixie 1 square above the enemy, Riposte Strike, then Riposte Strike (boosted by Vigilante Justice Style if an ally is adjacent) off turn for an extra damage instance. If you're above, or in the same square as the enemy, you're in a really good position, IF you have CA from an independent source. Thanks all for your thoughts.

[masteraleph]

Sorry for resurrecting this, but I may be playing this PC soon, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'd appreciate them. To recap: the goal is to generally have CA against enemies without flanking and potentially when enemies are adjacent to my allies. The idea is to do with with a Pixie above the enemy, and typically with Riposte Strike off turn. The options so far:

1) Mark of Storm + Lightning Weapon (or Thunderbolt at higher levels)+ Deadly Draw
2) Lasting Frost + Frost Weapon + Wintertouched in Paragon
3) Shadow Initiate + Cruel Shroud and don't use the Shrouds
4) Hope that allies slow or immobilize enemies + Vicious Advantage (is there a way to apply those conditions myself?)
5) Stomraider theme at level 10 (CA with allies adjacent) + Cunning Stalker

Anything else? @MwaO ?

[MwaO]

Sorry for resurrecting this, but I may be playing this PC soon, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'd appreciate them. To recap: the goal is to generally have CA against enemies without flanking and potentially when enemies are adjacent to my allies. The idea is to do with with a Pixie above the enemy, and typically with Riposte Strike off turn. The options so far:

1) Mark of Storm + Lightning Weapon (or Thunderbolt at higher levels)+ Deadly Draw
2) Lasting Frost + Frost Weapon + Wintertouched in Paragon
3) Shadow Initiate + Cruel Shroud and don't use the Shrouds
4) Hope that allies slow or immobilize enemies + Vicious Advantage (is there a way to apply those conditions myself?)
5) Stomraider theme at level 10 (CA with allies adjacent) + Cunning Stalker

Anything else? @MwaO ?

Fey Beast Tamer is probably easiest at 5th. Throw in Cunning Stalker and that ought to usually do it.