A Game Of Thrones Question . Potential spoiler

[russdm]

Book 1 Sansa may be naive, yes, and that doesn't help her family's position (though it doesn't damn Ned nearly as much as people would like to suggest). She's a teenage girl for crying out loud. Can you tell me that you didn't know a girl at that age who lived with her head in the clouds?

It's the fact that she doesn't pull her out of the clouds, despite the evidence, that annoys me. It's probably nothing more than Stockholm Syndrome, but she stills keep acting stupidly.

It is terrible when she was a 12 year old in the books more, and I have sympathy for her more there. In the show, they age her up, meaning she should have the greater maturity and experience that should be present. Especially given medieval lifestyles. But she shows a lack of it in a continual way. So it's hard to see her not really deserving.

She choose to trust Cersei, she choose to trust Joffrey, and she choose to trust Littlefinger/Baelsh. She choose that. In the books, she may have been manipulated thoroughly, but the older age makes it more idiotic on her part.

A medieval teenage girl is not going to have her head in the clouds the way a modern teenage girl would. And that shouldn't be used as an excuse.

[An Enemy Spy]

Stockholm Syndrome... after she's become a prisoner? She's thoroughly jumped off the Joffrey/Cersei train before the end of Book 1. You know when she says "I love him with all my heart" it's because telling the truth would be dangerous, right? Any politeness she shows them from that point on is motivated by survival instinct alone. The very first thing she does in Book 2 is use reverse psychology to get Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos and convince him it's his own idea. She risks retribution by trying to warn Margaery about Joffrey's true nature. She holds it together during the Battle of the Blackwater while Cersei drinks herself into an angry stupor and nearly dooms the city's defense with her terrible decisions. If Arya had been in her position she'd end up either pissing off Cersei enough to have her killed(a disastrous political move but this is Cersei we're talking about) or thrown in a tower cell before being given to the Boltons in Book 3.

[Yana]

At this point, russdm, I consider Book Sansa and Show Sansa to be wholly different characters due entirely to how the show treats her character. Everything that happened to her from S5 onwards is a complete fabrication on the part of the showrunners that derailed her actual character development in favor of being Ramsay's playtoy and showing that she's a "Strong Character" by siccing dogs on a bound POW and smiling at the ensuing bloodbath afterwards. Not to mention lamenting that she couldn't kill Joffrey herself.

Contrast with Book Sansa who cried after Joffrey died at his own wedding despite everything that had been done to her at his behest. Contrast this with a Sansa that does her best to care for her cousin, Robert Arryn, despite not particularly liking him in addition to him being a coddled child with epilepsy.

Sansa has learned from Cersei. She has learned how not to be like Cersei. I would not consider that a decision of a so called "stupid" character.

[russdm]

At this point, russdm, I consider Book Sansa and Show Sansa to be wholly different characters due entirely to how the show treats her character

To be honest, I consider Show Sansa to be a butchery of the character. As for Book Sansa, I started liking her more later on towards ADWD, but her first impressions brought a negative image of her. Same with Jaime, but seeing his POV has warmed me towards him. Cersei's POV hasn't warmed me to her at all.

Sansa needed her world view changed at the very least, and she got that, but it didn't happen out of the blue. It was mostly a result of her actions putting her in that situation, and Tyrion treats her better than Joffery does (Which is inexcusable). So she stays a hostage, mistreated by Joffrey until Tyrion puts a stop to that. And she starts really learning hard as well.

Jaime gets a change in perspective by losing a hand. And experiences some hard times.

As for Show Sansa: Her marriage to Ramsay and her experiences don't make her stronger or "empowered", in my view. It just makes her more pathetic. She trusted Baelsh and accepted that marriage, doesn't try to learn anything about Ramsay, apparently, and seems to sign up pretty freely. Then you have how she gets out of it by being saved by Theon. I actually thought she would shank Ramsay at some point. Which leaves what growth she had wrecked. The showrunners really botched the character.

And why did we need more Ramsay anyway?

Personally, I prefer Team Others to win the Game of Thrones.

[McStabbington]

I think that, until after the death of Ned, Sansa needs to see Cersei as "Not a villain".

Hence she ignores the evidence of Cersei's cruelty to innocents (ordering Lady killed) and blames Arya rather than Cersei.

The thing to remember is about Sansa is that she's actually one of the most reliably perceptive characters in the series. The problem is not that she's got her head in the clouds, so much as she chooses not to pay attention to what her eyes are telling her, because the stories she's relying upon to sort "relevant" from "irrelevant" information aren't reliable. But the thing is, Littlefinger fools Catelyn and even Varys to an extent. But Sansa? Sansa reads right through the man from the very first time she sees him. She can tell, instantly, that he's got an interest that is entirely unhealthy at a glance. But she then puts that assessment to the side and doesn't trust her own judgment. Similarly, she's angry and blames Arya for Lady's death, but she also utterly refuses to see and talk with Joffrey thereafter as well. It's only at the Hand's Feast after the tourney, where Joffrey very specifically engages in a form of victim grooming known as love bombing that she then starts to think he's a good kid, that it was all a misunderstanding, etc.

The one real exception is Cersei, and that's more than anything because Cersei hits a blind spot in Sansa's sensors. To put it bluntly, Cersei is a pretty low-functioning narcissist, but she does have one move down pat. And that move is to put on the public face of The Fairest Of Them All. When you combine that with the fact that Sansa instantly reads (accurately) that Robert Baratheon is, in fact, a very vicious and brutal dude, it's not a surprise that Cersei's The Fairest Of Them All face fools Sansa so powerfully. She doesn't have the wisdom yet to realize that the fact that the other guy is the bad guy does not make you the good guy.

It's unfortunate that it hit Sansa's blind spot. But it's also eminently understandable. Wiser and older people than Sansa Stark were played the fool for far too long by Cersei's The Fairest Of Them All Face for me to blame Sansa Stark, or think she's dumb.

[hamishspence]

Book 1 Sansa may be naive, yes, and that doesn't help her family's position (though it doesn't damn Ned nearly as much as people would like to suggest).

I think the reason for people suggesting it is, it actually gets discussed in A Clash of Kings, in private conversation between Cersei and Tyrion, about the seizure of power in King's Landing:

"So, this Lord Slynt, he was part of it, was he? Tell me, whose fine notion was it to grant him Harrenhal and name him to the Council?"

"Littlefinger made the arrangements. We needed Slynt's gold cloaks. Eddard Stark was plotting with Renly and he'd written to Lord Stannis, offering him the throne. We might have lost all. Even so, it was a close thing. If Sansa hadn't come to me and told me all her father's plans ..."

[monomer]

Stockholm Syndrome... after she's become a prisoner? She's thoroughly jumped off the Joffrey/Cersei train before the end of Book 1. You know when she says "I love him with all my heart" it's because telling the truth would be dangerous, right? Any politeness she shows them from that point on is motivated by survival instinct alone. The very first thing she does in Book 2 is use reverse psychology to get Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos and convince him it's his own idea. She risks retribution by trying to warn Margaery about Joffrey's true nature. She holds it together during the Battle of the Blackwater while Cersei drinks herself into an angry stupor and nearly dooms the city's defense with her terrible decisions. If Arya had been in her position she'd end up either pissing off Cersei enough to have her killed(a disastrous political move but this is Cersei we're talking about) or thrown in a tower cell before being given to the Boltons in Book 3.

While I agree that she loses all trust in the Lannisters after the events of Book 1, for the next 3 books she still thinks she's living in a Fairy Tale instead of a GRRM novel. This may be a failure of Ned's in that she has a belief that there are more than a bare handful of people with honour out there that will do the right thing.

For instance, when she's discussing the secret plan for her to marry a Tyrell, she immediately assumes it would be Loras, and is disappointed to learn it is instead his brother, who happens to be the heir to one of the richest and most powerful houses in the land, and is by all accounts (well Margaery's) a much nicer person. She doesn't even consider that marrying Loras makes no sense at all, from a strategic, logistical (Loras is by then under a vow of celibacy), or even emotional sense (can you imagine what a marriage with Loras would be like?). She just lives in her fantasy world imagining she will get to marry the handsomest knight of the realm. Even after all the torment she receives, she is also disappointed to find out her saviour turns out to be Ser Dontos, and not some knight in shining armor.

Once she is under Baelish's wing, though, she starts to pay more attention to the Game and how it is played.

[hamishspence]

While this is more a more book-centric question than series-centric one - does anyone think Fire and Blood (which came out a few weeks ago) might have some bearing on the plot?

Specifically:

Spoiler

Show

3 eggs are stolen and sold to the Sea Lord of Braavos about 250 years before A Game of Thrones. It's strongly implied that these are Dany's eggs.

Perhaps Braavos dislikes the Baratheon government, wants to see the Targaryens return, and sent Illyrio Mopatis the eggs to give to Dany - knowing that she's likely to eventually get them hatched?

[McStabbington]

Admittedly, I just got F&B last night. But my inclination is to say no.

Spoiler

Show

Specifically, I doubt anyone planned on the eggs ever hatching.

My guess is that they were turned over as part of a legal agreement between Illyrio and the Sealord. Illyrio's plans ultimately would end up destabilizing all of Westeros, and things like that make leaders of cities panicky. My guess is that Mopatis went to the Sealord and let him know that he had a plan to make use of the beggar king to replace the Baratheons with another king that would certainly be very favorable to Pentos' interests, but might not be with Braavos. After all, Pentos is still economically hamstrung by the effects of the last war between Braavos and Pentos, which Braavos won, and one of the terms of the surrender was the freeing of all slaves within the city. And the Sealord can't exactly stop Illyrio's plan, unless he wants to call out a Faceless Man contract on, well, basically Viserys and Drogo. Could be pricey.

On the other hand, with just a small buy-in and the Sealord promising not to interfere, Illyrio could make sure that Braavos keeps its hands clean of the entire thing. Westeros' new king doesn't interfere with the spat between Pentos and Braavos, he remains a friend to both cities, and with a few well-placed whispers, Illyrio ensures that Drogo's Dothraki don't attempt to explore the Braavosi hills on their way to Pentos.

The eggs, I suspect, were that buy-in. And Illyrio's publicly handing them to Daenerys was him publicly accepting the price as acceptable.

[hamishspence]

That could work. And (possibly at the Sealord's request, for deniability purposes) - Viserys and Daenerys are told that the eggs come from the Shadowlands.

[Phobia]

I can just imagine that Payne died in the show, and Arya simply heard and removed him from her list as she does with others who die before she can get to them.

[hamishspence]

Something I'm kinda puzzled about (book question again, but the event happened in both the book universe and the TV universe)- what year was the Doom of Valyria supposed to have taken place?

The World of Ice & Fire book said:

"12 years before the Doom (114 BC) Aenar Targaryen moved to Dragonstone"

But does this mean "Aenar moved in 114 BC, and the Doom took place 12 years later (102 BC)"

Or does it mean "Aenar moved in 126 BC and the Doom took place in 114 BC"?

Wikis are inconsistent on the subject, and I haven't found an exact cite from George RR Martin.

In the books, Barristan Selmy claims that Balerion (who specifically came with the Targaryens on their move to Dragonstone as a young dragon) was 200 when he died. And his death is consistently dated 94 BC. Since there is no year zero in the Westeros timeline, that would mean he was born in 107 BC. So Barristan Selmy most be rounding off to the nearest decade or so.

A Balerion born in 114 BC (latest possible) would be 207 as of death.

A Balerion born in 126 BC would be 219 as of death.


Thoughts?

[CWater]

I would consider that comment to mean "200 or more", as I doubt Barristan could know Balerion's exact age, but he would reasonably know how long the dragon had at least been around.

[Velaryon]

To be honest, I consider Show Sansa to be a butchery of the character. As for Book Sansa, I started liking her more later on towards ADWD, but her first impressions brought a negative image of her. Same with Jaime, but seeing his POV has warmed me towards him. Cersei's POV hasn't warmed me to her at all.

Sansa needed her world view changed at the very least, and she got that, but it didn't happen out of the blue. It was mostly a result of her actions putting her in that situation, and Tyrion treats her better than Joffery does (Which is inexcusable). So she stays a hostage, mistreated by Joffrey until Tyrion puts a stop to that. And she starts really learning hard as well.

Jaime gets a change in perspective by losing a hand. And experiences some hard times.

As for Show Sansa: Her marriage to Ramsay and her experiences don't make her stronger or "empowered", in my view. It just makes her more pathetic. She trusted Baelsh and accepted that marriage, doesn't try to learn anything about Ramsay, apparently, and seems to sign up pretty freely. Then you have how she gets out of it by being saved by Theon. I actually thought she would shank Ramsay at some point. Which leaves what growth she had wrecked. The showrunners really botched the character.

And why did we need more Ramsay anyway?

Personally, I prefer Team Others to win the Game of Thrones.

I think you're giving book Sansa a little more credit than she deserves. She does wise up, but it happens in stages and she's dragged kicking and screaming every single step of the way.

Sansa is at her most completely unbearably naive in AGOT. It isn't until Joffrey orders her father's execution that she can finally see him as the irredeemable monster that he is.

However, the lesson she learned in AGOT was not "all those fairy tales of gallant knights and perfect princesses I grew up on were full of nonsense." That comes later. So far, all she's really learned is "Just because the Lannisters are pretty doesn't mean they're the true knights and nobles like in the stories." She's still very much holding on to her childish beliefs, she just thinks the Lannisters are frauds.

In book 2, she looks at the Tyrells almost the exact same way as she previously did the Lannisters. Yes, she tries to warn Margaery about Joffrey's true nature, but she's absolutely smitten with Loras Tyrell and is crushed to learn that the Tyrells don't want to marry her to their prettiest lordling. Then at her wedding to Tyrion, she humiliates him by refusing to kneel so he can put the cloak on her, despite his attempts to treat her kindly.

She does get Joffrey to spare Ser Dontos, but she buys his "I'm your Florian the fool" thing hook, line, and sinker. It really isn't until she's safely out of King's Landing that she fully leaves her delusions behind that the world is really a pretty, happy place and that she's just not found the good, heroic people yet.