Wait Council of Clans

[denthor]

Council of clans? Hilga has a family that is/was the head of a clan. Could it be possible she is going to get summoned or must be at this meeting or family members?

[Xyril]

Council of clans? Hilga has a family that is/was the head of a clan. Could it be possible she is going to get summoned or must be at this meeting or family members?

It would be interesting if she got a vote. Your hypothesis certainly fits--maybe she was out of reach of water spell or messenger they use to announce the council, and even if she did get the message, there's zero narrative reason to show her mentioning it, since the Order (and the audience) already discover that information in a much more dramatic way. I think it would be hard to set things up so that her vote matters, though--if the council involves all the clans, there are probably too many for Hilgya's one vote to matter. Alternatively, it might only include the larger and more prominent--the fact that she could run away from, then financially ruin (all while contemplating mass murder as a backup plan) hers, without causing a big enough stir for somebody to mention it to the protagonists, implies that her clan wouldn't be among those select few.

Then again, every vote counts, and if the Giant decided to let the vamps get to exactly 50% minus one vote for dramatic effect, it wouldn't bother me too much.

[Rrmcklin]

Council of clans? Hilga has a family that is/was the head of a clan. Could it be possible she is going to get summoned or must be at this meeting or family members?

That would be a hell of a thing to not mention before now. But, no, Hilgya is done with her clan, and even if she weren't she was obviously not its head.

And your language is a bit confusing here - why are you saying that Hilgya's family was the head of a clan? What is that supposed to mean?

[hroþila]

Hilgya is not the head of her clan, nor is she likely to have been chosen as a companion/guard by the head of her clan, for obvious reasons, so I think she wouldn't have been summoned.

Now, entering the realm of pure headcanon: from what we know of Hilgya's arranged marriage, I see her clan as "new money", and thus not particularly likely to feature in this old-fashioned council.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, some rule might allow her to vote, for one reason or another.

It would certainly give purpose to re-introducing her now.

[Xyril]

It would certainly give purpose to re-introducing her now.

That's certainly a fair point, and I do love it when multiple threads pay off all at once, but they've already given plenty of reasons for her return right now. Her presence--and Kudzu's--was an impetus for Durkon to fight harder, and also to reexamine some of his old choices. She balanced out the fight with Durkula, underscoring how badass an evil, ruthless version of Durkon could be (with the help of a deity): He fought Roy to a stalemate, but when both sides had the opportunity to consider what they knew about each other and plan for their next engagement, Durkula almost neutralized the Order once (when they trapped themselves in the Force Cage), failing because of Hilgya's intervention, and outright beat them despite Hilgya providing an advantage that he couldn't plan for. (Though arguably her weak will and tiny human shield provided advantages he quickly adapted to exploit.) Moreover, her continuing presence provides opportunities for further character development for Durkon, as well as interesting consequences tactically--Loki is clearly working against Hel, but he had to nudge Hilgya into the right spot by offering her something she wanted, and not because she's all that eager to serve her god, and given her past history, it wouldn't be hard for a change in circumstances to make her a much less reliable ally than she seems to be now. Speaking of which, she provides a nearby potential conduit to Loki, whose role in this is pretty interesting.

[Rrmcklin]

Well, some rule might allow her to vote, for one reason or another.

It would certainly give purpose to re-introducing her now.

We already have purpose: Kudzu.

[Heksefatter]

It has already been pointed out that Hilgya's clan seems to be "new money" and thus unlikely to have a seat on the council.

There is another reason for them not to be so, though: Remember that the clan lost everything. They are utterly broke. I don't see a bankrupt clan being powerful enough to hold such a position. Most likely this is only for the most powerful, wealthy and/or prestigious clans. Which Hilgya's clan likely never were and certainly is no more.

[Fyraltari]

I assume the Firehelm will have a seat on the council, because:
1) Why would some clans be barred from attending the council of Clan Elders?
2) More Thundershield-Firehelm shenanigans.

But I expect the Elder to be Hilgya's brother, not her.

[Heksefatter]

I assume the Firehelm will ahve a seat on the council, because:
1) Why would some clans be barred from attending the council of Clan Elders?
2) More Thundershield-Firehelm shenanigans.

But I expect the Elder to be Hilgya's brother, not her.

The first one can be explained: Because only the major/most important clans are represented.

Now, admittedly we do not KNOW this. But it seems a fair guess to me.

[Fyraltari]

The first one can be explained: Because only the major/most important clans are represented.

Now, admittedly we do not KNOW this. But it seems a fair guess to me.

Doesn’t that contradicts the name? It’s not the Council of the High Clans or somesuch.

[hroþila]

Doesn’t that contradicts the name? It’s not the Council of the High Clans or somesuch.

Not every old person attended the Roman Senate either. The council is an old and mostly ceremonial institution, so it would make sense if it wasn't up to date with dwarven society.

Not saying that's necessarily how it works, and certainly it would be a good opportunity to show the Firehelms. It's just one of the several possible headcanons that fit from what we've seen.

[Fyraltari]

Not every old person attended the Roman Senate either. The council is an old and mostly ceremonial institution, so it would make sense if it wasn't up to date with dwarven society.

So? every patrician family had people in the senate and that’s who it was supposed to represent.

In the same way, every Roman tribe had its representative at the popular assemblies.

I expect every Clan to be represented at the Council of Clans not every clan member (the entire dwarven population) to be present.

[hroþila]

So?

So the name doesn't have to be literal.

Again, I'm not saying this is how it works. It would make sense if every clan, even every new clan, got a vote in this council. But in my mind it would also make sense if a fossilized institution didn't accept everybody and the Firehelms were not part of this former oligarchy. This is my headcanon - feel free to reject it.

[Fyraltari]

So the name doesn't have to be literal.

Oh. Okay, I get it.

Again, I'm not saying this is how it works. It would make sense if every clan, even every new clan, got a vote in this council. But in my mind it would also make sense if a fossilized institution didn't accept everybody and the Firehelms were not part of this former oligarchy. This is my headcanon - feel free to reject it.

We'll see, I guess.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So? every patrician family had people in the senate and that’s who it was supposed to represent.

No, no they didn't? And even if by law they had to - and I doubt they did - by the end of the Empire, when the Senate was a social club for old men, the most powerful families in the Empire (like, say, the ones in Constantinople) not only did not attend it, they didn't care about it.

Also, the Senate was not exclusive to Patricians. The Consul used to require patrician blood, but that was changed very early on. Around the Social War, IIRC. After that, it wasn't long before it was required that one of the Consuls had to be a plebeian.

Grey Wolf

[Heksefatter]

Doesn’t that contradicts the name? It’s not the Council of the High Clans or somesuch.

Actually, I think you may have a point. Not that we can be sure, but if I went by the name, it would be most plausible to assume all clans are represented.

I can still see the other possibility being plausible, but yes.

In any case, we'll see. If it is major clans, there's likely relatively few people there. Maybe like the Godsmoot or a little more. If it is all clans, it would likely be more like a large parliament.

[Fyraltari]

No, no they didn't? And even if by law they had to - and I doubt they did - by the end of the Empire, when the Senate was a social club for old men, the most powerful families in the Empire (like, say, the ones in Constantinople) not only did not attend it, they didn't care about it.

Also, the Senate was not exclusive to Patricians. The Consul used to require patrician blood, but that was changed very early on. Around the Social War, IIRC. After that, it wasn't long before it was required that one of the Consuls had to be a plebeian.

Grey Wolf

I was more thinking of the early days of the Senate when it wasn't basically a joke.

[Aquillion]

That would be a hell of a thing to not mention before now. But, no, Hilgya is done with her clan, and even if she weren't she was obviously not its head.

And your language is a bit confusing here - why are you saying that Hilgya's family was the head of a clan? What is that supposed to mean?

Depending on the laws she could end up voting in her clan's place if its head is dusted or something along those lines. It would require a chain of assumptions, but it's at least notionally possible.

That said, she's not going to resolve this situation herself, since she's not one of the protagonists. If she does play a role it will be like Julio Scoundrel, ie. as part of a plan set in motion by a member of the OOTS, or as a result of their actions.

[Son of A Lich!]

I think there is some poetic value to the idea that Loki wanted to save the world and his daughter wanted to destroy it. I think there could be some resonance if Papa Firehelm wanted to vote to destroy the world (Magical compulsion or otherwise) and Hilga wanted to save it.

It would be really nice if it was the swing vote somehow too.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I was more thinking of the early days of the Senate when it wasn't basically a joke.

Yeah, even then, I don't know that it was ever required for every patrician family to have a representative, unless we are talking pre-first Rome sack or something.

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

I am learning more about the history of Rome here than anywhere else.

[Fyraltari]

Yeah, even then, I don't know that it was ever required for every patrician family to have a representative, unless we are talking pre-first Rome sack or something.

Grey Wolf

I never said that it was required by law, but I’d be surprised to learn that there were patrician gentes without anyone in the Senate.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I am learning more about the history of Rome here than anywhere else.

I cannot recommend the History of Rome podcast highly enough, if you want to learn about the history of Rome.

I never said that it was required by law, but I’d be surprised to learn that there were patrician gentes without anyone in the Senate.

You said, and I quote, "every patrician family had people in the senate and that’s who it was supposed to represent."

The only way every family would always have representatives would be by law. And that is not even going into the idea that the Senate represented the patrician families alone. It was the SPQR, the Senate of the Peoples of Rome, not the Senate of the Patricians of Rome. From the start, it represented the entirety of the population of Rome (unequally, I'll grant you, but the whole thing).

Grey Wolf

[Aveline]

I cannot recommend the History of Rome podcast highly enough, if you want to learn about the history of Rome.

Noted. Ought to be good morning listening.

[Dion]

I’m still holding out a little hope that Sigdi will be there.

[Fyraltari]

You said, and I quote, "every patrician family had people in the senate and that’s who it was supposed to represent."

The only way every family would always have representatives would be by law.

no, they would just need to each have at least one member reach enough to be on the album, which until the rise of the Equites, I would be surprised to learn they didnt'.

And that is not even going into the idea that the Senate represented the patrician families alone. It was the SPQR, the Senate of the Peoples of Rome, not the Senate of the Patricians of Rome. From the start, it represented the entirety of the population of Rome (unequally, I'll grant you, but the whole thing).

"Senatus PopulusQue Romanum" "The Senate And the Roman People" as in the two are distinct and separate.

"The Senate of the People of Rome" would be "Senatus Populi Roma" and thus SPR, not SPQR.

The Senate, I stand by that, was meant to represent the original gentes who evolved into the patricians. True, social pressure forced it to be more inclusive than that, but it was never the assembly of the roman people, that's the comices' job (and the plebeian counterpart to the Senat was the plebeian council).