Are Elemental Monks Really Bad?

[Misterwhisper]

Sorry, this doesn't work. Fly is 10 minutes, not 1 hour. It won't last anywhere near the entire crossing of a forest. More like when you're getting close to a particular clearing in the forest.

You know what is one hour long and helps with movement, pass without trace.

[MaxWilson]

You know what is one hour long and helps with movement, pass without trace.

Pass Without Trace is indeed fantastic. Shadow Monks rock, especially with the Alert feat.

[Zuras]

Fundamentally, the Four Elements Monk feels lacking because most of the time your most powerful ability is going to be stunning strike. If you blow all your ki in a fight on cool elemental spells, you will often end up regretting it and wishing you had that ki back to stun something.

Contrast this with the Eldritch Knight. At Level 20 your strongest features are your base Fighter ones— 4 attacks and your Action Surge. Your EK feature just build off of these. Action Surge lets you cast (and teleport!) on the same turn you attack, and any creature you hit with one of your four attacks has disadvantage against your spells—all the features work together.

[Tanarii]

Contrast this with the Eldritch Knight.

Contrast this with an OH monk or Shadow Monk. Clearly when they blow Ki on Flurry of Blows or Pass without Trace, they'll regret it when they need to make a Stunning Strike.

[Citan]

Huh. It's not like you to engage in blatant straw men, Citan.



I didn't say it lacked limitations. I said it was a teleporting ability that's not limited in uses per day. Which it is. But sure, insult me for stating a fact.



I listed Fangs of the Fire Snake as a selling point for the 4E Monk.



I guess we'll just have to disagree that their spell choices are way better than Pass Without Trace et al, particularly at level 3.



I actually have years of experience on the subject. I've been playing 5e since release, both DMing and playing, including with Monks, across dozens of tables. My judgments are not based upon "reading a few lines on paper," but upon experience with the system. Talk about leaping to hasty conclusions...


Please do not shove words in my mouth that I didn't say.

1. Well, it was really poorly worded.
2. Sorry it doesn't show in your post. And you don't take your own conclusions: if 4E is seemed as bad, then very few people will take it, so your observation base is much narrower than Shadow.

Usually I see decent content from you, but this is just a terrible clump of arguments.

Shadow Monk has more spell choices at level 3 than a 4EM has at level 15, and Shadow Monk's choices are just plain better out of combat -- starting with Minor Illusion (which doesn't cost a point of Ki, unlike the 4EM's scam of a cantrip), and continuing through solving stealth (silence, darkness, pass without trace), giving tactical combat advantage (silence, darkness, darkvision), buffing allies (darkvision, silence), and shutting down enemy archers or casters (darkness or silence, respectively).

Of course it is teleporting all day. Sure you're "limited" to indoors, at night, or in a dungeon -- but guess when fun things are going to happen? Yep, fun things tend to happen indoors, and at night, and in dungeons.

No argument that Flight is a good thing, but you're comparing a level 6 ability vs. a level 11 ability -- and the Shadow Monk's level 11 free Invisibility (no Ki, no money down, no credit check) is just as good as the 4EM's expensive level 11 Flight.

It's funny that you're trying to talk up hit-and-run tactics while ignoring the better tactical use for Shadow Step:
- Walk up to dude
- Punch dude twice
- Teleport away

That's effectively a FREE Bonus Action Disengage (instead of spending Ki to Disengage in a mundane way).

The Shadow Monk is better at pulling off the tactic you were trying to boast about.

If you had picked a better subclass, you'd know how to do more than just Attack.

Ugh, I don't want to keep wading through this. Hope someone else can set you straight, Citan. You were someone I'd looked forward to reading.

I'm perfectly straight, thank you guys.
I messed up the Fly time, sorry about that. Everything else holds true.

Shadow Monk has no "more spell choices", Shadow Monk has ZERO choice: you get 4 spells, and that's all.
And those spells, except Pass Without Trace which any idiot could use properly, are good only as far as the player makes it to be.

Don't you remember the threads about Darkness where people make a strong guarding about misusing it and just bothering the party?
Don't you remember about people saying they tried keeping a caster in a Silence area but this tactic works much less in practice than in theory?

I compared teleport to Fly to make the point about mobility, which ends as much better for 4E, without any such limitation as the one Shadow has.
And you made the reverse case, and sure it works well, but that's the only way it works well. And it works well until enemies start getting smart enough to Ready an attack when you get to them (which may also break concentration on your Darkness).

If you want to compare level 6 abilities then sure: 4E gets an upgrade to his blasting with Shatter which also doubles as utility when you don't care about the noise. 4E gets also an upgrade to Stunning Strike with Hold Person, which targets a much less resisted save and imposes better condition so you have a pretty decent chance of having a better resource to benefit ratio. And humanoids are fairly common all around except if you go into specific plane or get into heavily thematic scenario.

You know what else you can do? Try and save your squishy friend from an OA and possibly from being targeted at all by melee attacks, or quite on the contrary serve a creature on a plate for your melee pal by bringing creature within his reach and prone, thanks to Water Whip or Fist of Air.

You know what else you can do? Ensure that a creature that has some HP left *will* be dead at the end of your turn, even if it had very high AC or possibly Shield, because your abilities *all* deal half-damage on save and you can scale up as needed.

You know what else you can do at higher level?
- Force a flyer to land with either WW, FUA or SS, whichever has the most chance to succeed.
- Grapple someone, fly upwards and drop it for a few extra xd6 damage and auto-prone.
- Grapple somone and "herd it" into an AOE that is beneficial to you: Silence for a caster, Contagion Cloud for anyone, Wall spells, Web, Plant Growth, or even simply a pit prepared in advance.
- Grapple someone and drag it onto Spike Growth for free extra damage while not taking any damage yourself (keeping creature inside the area while you fly on the side or above the tip of spikes).
All those tactics are usually situational, even for a Monk, because the halved movement rule means you can only drag a few feet, unless you started turn right next to target and can use Dash as bonus action. The extra speed provided by Fly makes those tactics usable on a more regular basis. It also synergizes with Water Whip for a bit of free extra damage (you'd get it prone anyways on a failed save) when you don't want to just ride into melee from above for some reason. It also helps reaching any caster, even those that would have countermeasures against darkness.

The thing is: 4E is a very powerful subclass, but exactly as Shadow, it requires much finesse to be played properly.
Except that Shadow is displaying it on the front, because none of its spells deal damage or boost defense per se. So anyone picking Shadow is choosing it because (s)he is confident to have the wits required to use it efficiently.

People on the other hand see 4e, see damage-dealing abilities, so they think it's easy to play, waste their Ki, then come complain.

4E is played much more in a nova fashion, using bursts of power to do things that he could not usually do, instead of egraining Ki consumption over every round like Open Hand or Kensei, and you have to pick your disciplines depending on your party composition (exactly like Sorcerer or Warlock).

Put a 4E in the hands of a guy that knows how to play a Sorcerer (build complexity), a Shepherd Druid (tactical reading & coordination complexity) or a Warlock (resource management complexity), you'll actually see good things.

[LudicSavant]

1. Well, it was really poorly worded.

I don't think it was. Nifft seemed to understand just fine.

I said that you can teleport all day without using ki, which is simply a fact. Translating that into "it has no limitations at all" is entirely on you. As is every single other straw man you stuffed in my mouth in that post.

2. Sorry it doesn't show in your post. And you don't take your own conclusions: if 4E is seemed as bad, then very few people will take it, so your observation base is much narrower than Shadow.

Speaking of poor wording... "If 4e is seemed as bad"? I'm genuinely not sure what you're trying to say. Nor what conclusions you feel I'm not taking, either. Or why you think you have any idea what my "observation base" is.

Shadow Monk has no "more spell choices"

And now you're just twisting what Nifft said when the meaning is already clear. Obviously when he says they have more spell choices, he means they have access to more options in-game, not in-build.

If someone says that a character with 4 spells known has more choices available in a game session than a character with 1 spell known, that's simply factually accurate.

[Capac Amaru]

I made some custom spell lists for individual element monks back in 2015...

[Zalabim]

Ok, that makes sense. Still though, all that damage may be useful on a crit against one guy with a ton of HP, but there goes all of your Ki. Vs you can add 1d6+Dex with flurry...which basically equals the same damage output, minus crits. Then further in levels it just gets better and better to use flurry.

If you're already using Fangs of the Fire Snake, spending 1 Ki more when you hit is very worthwhile, since that's 5.5 more average damage you don't have to make an attack roll for. If the enemy is easy to hit, then flurry is more likely better, but you can also combine the two, which makes FotFS one of the first abilities any monk can get to ever exceed their otherwise-maximum potential damage in a turn. You can spend just 1 Ki on it to extend your reach and change your damage type, as a sort of no-action step of the wind and sub-6 ki empowered strikes, and later on you can go nova with it as well. Getting more damage right now can be worthwhile if it's ending a fight sooner, compared to doing more damage in later rounds, but also taking more damage overall.

Well, you, apparently, judging by what you just wrote above.

It's more akin to the Eldritch Knight losing Action Surge and Second Wind than Extra Attack. But in return you get more spellcasting than the Eldritch Knight does.

I compare it more to the EK not getting Superiority Dice, or not getting Arcane Shots, or not getting Unwavering Mark, or not getting Fighting Spirit. It seems like most of the fighter archetypes give them an extra combat ability and resource at level 3.

I've been trying to come up with a way to make the 4 elements monk feel more like a monk on the turns they activate their disciplines. I don't think cheapening the ki cost really helps with the feel, which can be a big reason why people don't like a subclass (see Beastmaster, robotic pet argument).

My current working ideas...
Elemental Arts:
At level 6, you have learned to integrate your elemental disciplines with your martial arts style. When you use your action to activate an elemental discipline, you can use your bonus action to attack with your martial arts feature as if you had used the attack action with a monk weapon.

This can just end with "... you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

Advanced Elemental Arts:
At level 11, you blend your elemental disciplines and martial arts seamlessly. When you use your action and spend ki to activate an elemental discipline, you can activate flurry of blows or step of the wind as a bonus action without spending additional ki.

This one would be worded a bit differently, but again, I wouldn't reference "the ability without spending ki" and would just copy what the ability says. So "When you use your action and spend ki to activate an elemental discipline, you can make two unarmed strikes as a bonus action.
When you use your action and spend ki to activate an elemental discipline, you can take the Disengage or Dash action as a bonus action, and your jump distance is doubled for the turn," just like that in two short, similar paragraphs under one ability. Would you want to just make this "when you spend 1 or more Ki to activate an elemental discipline on your turn" as the trigger instead? That's just to discount flurry when using Fangs of the Fire Snake.

Add a non-damage elemental cantrip at 3rd and an additional discipline at 3rd and 17th levels, and I think I'd be pretty happy with it.

I agree even minor changes could be satisfactory.

starting with Minor Illusion (which doesn't cost a point of Ki, unlike the 4EM's scam of a cantrip)

Elemental Attunement doesn't cost ki either. It also isn't technically a spell or cantrip, though it is magical, so it has a few unique interactions with say, invisibility, and doesn't require any kind of the normal components to use.

It's funny that you're trying to talk up hit-and-run tactics while ignoring the better tactical use for Shadow Step:
- Walk up to dude
- Punch dude twice
- Teleport away

That's effectively a FREE Bonus Action Disengage (instead of spending Ki to Disengage in a mundane way).

The Shadow Monk is better at pulling off the tactic you were trying to boast about.

That tactic saves you 1 Ki, but still costs a bonus action, which means it actually costs one unarmed strike right now. When you're teleporting into range instead, it pays that back with advantage on your first melee attack. Fangs of the Fire Snake costs 1 ki (as well as any downsides of using unarmed strikes instead of your weapon right now), but saves the bonus action, so it costs one unarmed strike or stunning attempt later, if you're still fighting when you run out of ki. Though I do say it's interesting to see a case where stealth and scouting is improved enough that it's valued over broader combat options and higher possible damage in a nova.

[MaxWilson]

I compare it more to the EK not getting Superiority Dice, or not getting Arcane Shots, or not getting Unwavering Mark, or not getting Fighting Spirit. It seems like most of the fighter archetypes give them an extra combat ability and resource at level 3.

Yep, while monks are just the opposite: monk subclasses give you new ways to use ki, and sometimes extra stuff on top (e.g. Shadow Monk and Long Death).

It's an interesting difference between them but not IMHO a bad one. I for one would be quite sad if Pass Without Trace couldn't be fueled by ki; if I played an elemental monk, I'd be quite sad if my Fireball were restricted to 2/day like an EK instead of ki-fueled 3/short rest.

This can just end with "... you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action."

The original wording is better because it prevents you from using this bonus action in heavy armor or with a shield, which prevents multiclassing shenanigans.

Elemental Attunement doesn't cost ki either. It also isn't technically a spell or cantrip, though it is magical, so it has a few unique interactions with say, invisibility, and doesn't require any kind of the normal components to use.

Elemental Attunement is quite interesting because it is the only Prestidigitation-like effect I know of which has no limit on how many persistent effects you can have going at the same time. If you use Elemental Attunement to warm 1 pound of non-living material, you can spend 1 minute to warm 10 pounds of non-living material. With an elemental monk in the party, everyone's soup is always warm and everyone's pillow is always nice and cold.

[Rhedyn]

Things to leverage:

1. Elemental Attunement
2. Shape the Flowing River
3. Rush of the Gale Spirits
4. Flames of the Phoenix
5. Wave of Rolling Earth

Mechanically, I consider four elements bad, but there is ways to have fun with it provided that your DM goes along with it. Elemental Attunement can have lots of neat uses, but most importantly, it can be used to dig. Dig far enough down and you can have a cold cellar where you can make your ice fort where the Shape the Flowing River can be used to make a nice little base. Rush of the Gale Spirits is great for sailing craft or even glider, provided the DM goes along with it. Fireball is a decent ability to have and is unique to this kind of monk to have AOE clear. No more fearing squad of orcs for you. And of course Wave of Rolling Earth can be used to make permanent stone walls or castles. Very useful and may even earn a compliment from your 17th level Wizard buddy.

[Zuras]

Contrast this with an OH monk or Shadow Monk. Clearly when they blow Ki on Flurry of Blows or Pass without Trace, they'll regret it when they need to make a Stunning Strike.

I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make here...

In extensive AL play I have seen many players overextend themselves and get in unfortunate situations as 4E Monks because they burned through their ki quickly. I don’t see this happen with Shadow or Open Hand Monks.

Shadow Monks might regret that their Pass Without Trace failed to result in surprise, or lament that the Barbarian failed to grapple the enemy wizard after they cast Silence, but since none of their spells do damage, and only cost 2 ki anyway, they’re not going to be kicking themselves about it later.

You can play a 4E monk with restraint and avoid these problems, primarily using your spells mostly for utility instead, but then you don’t seem anything like the archetype from The Last Airbender people are looking for.

The archetype really needs more page space than they were willing to give it in the PHB, with more always-on abilities, either cantrips or something like warlock invocations or the psychic focus of the UA mystic.

[Vogie]

With a few changes, it equated to
1 ki - Cantrip
2 ki - 1st level spell*
3 ki - 2nd level spell
4 ki - 3rd level spell
5 ki - 4th level spell

*(and Gust of wind, for some reason)

and you only got 5 spells (2 at 3, 1 more at 6, 11 & 17).

Honestly, dropping the ki costs down by 1 (and giving cantrips for free, just like AT & EKs), and expanding the available spell lists would be the best way to breathe life back into the subclass. Some of them have crossed over (Fist of Unbroken Air/Water Whip is very close to Catapult from XGtE), while most of them are just normal spells.

If you base it on a normal 1/3rd level casters spell level progression (1st levels at 3, 2nd at 6, 3rd at 11, 4th at 17 and more spells known (instead of 3-13 for the LR classes like EK & AT, I could see 2-12 or 2-10 even), I think you could have some a seriously fixed subclass.

I made some custom spell lists for individual element monks back in 2015...

Honestly, If they had made an Elements monk, then had four (or more) mini subclasses within it, it'd probably be half decent change.

[Tanarii]

I’m not sure the point you’re trying to make here...

In extensive AL play I have seen many players overextend themselves and get in unfortunate situations as 4E Monks because they burned through their ki quickly. I don’t see this happen with Shadow or Open Hand Monks.

My point was all Monks have abilities depending on Ki other than Stunning Strike, including subclass features. They all have to determine which option is the best use of their Ki resources given the situation, and manage resources appropriately.

4-ele monks are heavy on Ki options, and they're supposed to be commensurately more powerful abilities as a result.

But I don't disagree that house-ruling them some minor thematic always usable abilities is a terrible idea.

[ad_hoc]

Sun Soul is the 4E Monk done right. Burning Hands as a bonus action is the right way to go.

As for comparing to Shadow Monks - They get 2nd level spells for only 2 ki. One of those is Pass Without Trace, the best 2nd level spell and one that doesn't compete with their attack action. Darkness and Silence have the potential to be quite powerful for shutting down enemies. At 6th they get a good ability which doesn't require ki.

[MaxWilson]

If you base it on a normal 1/3rd level casters spell level progression (1st levels at 3, 2nd at 6, 3rd at 11, 4th at 17

Normal 1/3 casters don't get 3rd level spells until level 13, and 4th is at level 20.

Elemental monks get access early compared to 1/3 casters.

Sun Soul is the 4E Monk done right. Burning Hands as a bonus action is the right way to go.

Most of the rest of the Sun Soul is done wrong though. The capstone is just awful.

[ad_hoc]

Most of the rest of the Sun Soul is done wrong though. The capstone is just awful.

How many games are going to get to 17th level? .01%? Probably more now that there is a level 20 adventure. So, considering a decent amount get there (like 1%), how much of the campaign is played at that level? 5% at most?

Sure the 17th level ability might as well not exist, but then, that's basically 17th level itself.

[Zuras]

My point was all Monks have abilities depending on Ki other than Stunning Strike, including subclass features. They all have to determine which option is the best use of their Ki resources given the situation, and manage resources appropriately.

4-ele monks are heavy on Ki options, and they're supposed to be commensurately more powerful abilities as a result.

But I don't disagree that house-ruling them some minor thematic always usable abilities is a terrible idea.

I disagree that there is much room to manage resources, given the ki costs, at least at levels 5-7, which is where I have seen the unhappy 4E Monks in actual play. You spend your ki on a single weak spell and then have a little left over for your other abilities till you can rest.

An Eldritch Knight doesn’t get any more magical spell damage potential than a 4E monk, but a typical spell selection, with (say) Shield, Find Familiar, Thunderwave, Fire Bolt and Mage Hand, gives you massively more flexibility out of combat, while still giving you enhanced defenses, an addition ranged attack, and additional damage types.

I agree 4E monks get more powerful spells sooner than the 1/3 casters, with Fireball at 11th level being a standout, but those spells are still far behind the full caster progression. Flexibility is more valuable than power in those cases.

Honestly, 4E Monks would feel much better at normal levels if they just provided access to an elemental damage cantrip and let you cast Absorb Element for 2 ki as part of the base subclass package.

[Witty Username]

there is a time and place for most things.

4El monk is hilarious depending on the game.

Shape the Flowing River is stupidly powerful in a naval or aquatic setting(enemy ship: form an ice burg underneath it, patch a hole in your ship for a bit if you hit an ice burg, trap a kraken in ice maybe, etc.), get clever with it a you can do pretty cool things.

I tend to like the spells that give you more options other than damage personally, ride the wind(fly) being the most obvious, Fist of Unbroken air and gale spirits give you some limited battlefield control (so does stunning strike but sometimes you just gotta hadoken), also with fist I made a DM have to ponder if one guy being hurled 20 ft into another guy whether or not the other guy took damage.

edit: I missed one thing, 4el at times trades power for fun and that is ok, it is powerful enough. I do agree that people should add more spells and such to it.

[Beechgnome]

From a design point of view the other thing that bugs me about them is the distribution and section of disciplines.

Water gets some low level abilities then gets gaseous form and, uh, cone of cold? There are no earth powers at all until very high levels.

Xanathar's/Elemental Evil could have resolved this it's selection: adding earth tremor, catapult, Earthbind, erupting earth, wall of water, watery sphere, maelstrom, wind wall, thunder step, storm sphere, Agannazar's scorcher or immolation.

Obviously you can homebrew those yourselves as choices, but for the designers it seemed like a missed opportunity.

[Vogie]

Normal 1/3 casters don't get 3rd level spells until level 13, and 4th is at level 20.

Elemental monks get access early compared to 1/3 casters.

Holy crap, you're right - I was just looking at the level caps on the 4E list.

They're following half-caster progression, like a Ranger or Paladin, but transposed by a level to account for cantrip-esque effects. That's... really interesting.

[Laolir]

Holy crap, you're right - I was just looking at the level caps on the 4E list.

They're following half-caster progression, like a Ranger or Paladin, but transposed by a level to account for cantrip-esque effects. That's... really interesting.

They have an half-caster progression for "Maximum Ki for a spell" but only get their new lvl of spell when monk subclass get a feature (6/11/17).
That's why they also get 4th and 5th lvl spell at the same lvl (17) even if they could have casted 4th lvl spell since lvl 13.
With a little more spell known not tied to lvl of subclass's feature (at least one at 8 or 9 and one at 14), and no lvl prerequisite to select them (but still to cast them), I think 4E would already feel much better.

And giving them a lot (or all) of the spells from Elemental Evil to choose from would be really good, at least in my opinion.

[mer.c]

Holy crap, you're right - I was just looking at the level caps on the 4E list.

They're following half-caster progression, like a Ranger or Paladin, but transposed by a level to account for cantrip-esque effects. That's... really interesting.

Worth noting though that 4E lacks actual half-casters’ out-of-depth spells to somewhat offset their lower spell progression, which AFAIK 4E monks lack.

Still, good observations.

[Zalabim]

Worth noting though that 4E lacks actual half-casters’ out-of-depth spells to somewhat offset their lower spell progression, which AFAIK 4E monks lack.

Still, good observations.

Their what?

From a design point of view the other thing that bugs me about them is the distribution and section of disciplines.

Water gets some low level abilities then gets gaseous form and, uh, cone of cold? There are no earth powers at all until very high levels.

Xanathar's/Elemental Evil could have resolved this it's selection: adding earth tremor, catapult, Earthbind, erupting earth, wall of water, watery sphere, maelstrom, wind wall, thunder step, storm sphere, Agannazar's scorcher or immolation.

Obviously you can homebrew those yourselves as choices, but for the designers it seemed like a missed opportunity.

The list has 17 disciplines, which is 4 of each element plus elemental attunement. Some disciplines could arguably be attributed to multiple elements, and the level spread is a little weird, especially only adding two new disciplines at level 6. Personally I count Fire Snake, Burning Hands, Fireball, and Wall of Fire under fire; Water Whip, Flowing River, Gaseous Form, and Cone of Cold under water; Fist of Air, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, and Fly under air; leaving Thunderwave, Shatter, Stoneskin, and Wall of Stone under earth. Some more options, and more choices among those options, would certainly not break anything. I've oft-remarked that giving the 4Ele monk all 17 existing options wouldn't break anything.

With a few changes, it equated to
1 ki - Cantrip
2 ki - 1st level spell*
3 ki - 2nd level spell
4 ki - 3rd level spell
5 ki - 4th level spell

*(and Gust of wind, for some reason)

And Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air, which 1) deal as much damage as Inflict Wounds 2) at range 3) with half damage on a passed save 4) and extra effects if the save is failed. Those are level 2 spell effects.

[MaxWilson]

From a design point of view the other thing that bugs me about them is the distribution and section of disciplines.

Water gets some low level abilities then gets gaseous form and, uh, cone of cold? There are no earth powers at all until very high levels.

Xanathar's/Elemental Evil could have resolved this it's selection: adding earth tremor, catapult, Earthbind, erupting earth, wall of water, watery sphere, maelstrom, wind wall, thunder step, storm sphere, Agannazar's scorcher or immolation.

Obviously you can homebrew those yourselves as choices, but for the designers it seemed like a missed opportunity.

While the PHB could have had text to the effect that "your DM may offer you other elemental discipline options than those written here," people would have complained about it as redundant since the DM can always make up new stuff. After all, the PHB nowhere says anything about maybe adding new spells, and yet DMs commonly make up their own spells or even allow players to research their own spells, and WotC makes up new spells too.

I like the idea someone mentioned above about adding Absorb Elements as a discipline option, and I like your ideas here too. I agree that it would have been best if Xanathar's had not missed the opportunity.

The list has 17 disciplines, which is 4 of each element plus elemental attunement. Some disciplines could arguably be attributed to multiple elements, and the level spread is a little weird, especially only adding two new disciplines at level 6. Personally I count Fire Snake, Burning Hands, Fireball, and Wall of Fire under fire; Water Whip, Flowing River, Gaseous Form, and Cone of Cold under water; Fist of Air, Gust of Wind, Hold Person, and Fly under air; leaving Thunderwave, Shatter, Stoneskin, and Wall of Stone under earth. Some more options, and more choices among those options, would certainly not break anything. I've oft-remarked that giving the 4Ele monk all 17 existing options wouldn't break anything.

I hadn't read this observation before. Interesting idea. I sort of like the flavor it results in--there's no reason for elemental monks to be Vancian.

[Laird]

Hi all, heated discussion here!

I was looking at a way to homebrew a little more options for this class and came up with something that shouldn't be too bad but somewhat alleviates the ki greedy nature of the PHB version.

What if, in addition to Elemental Attunement 4E monks also gained a pool of 'Chi' equal to 2* Wisdom Modifier?
The chi can only be spend on 4E disciplines and recovers on a long rest. It could increase to 3* Wis mod around lvl 11.

This allows ki to be used for monk abilities or 4E disciplines and gives a bit of a cushion for the nova or heavy discipline use without
giving the monk too much nova power.

Cheers!

[mer.c]

Their what?

Spells that punch above their spell-level weight/bards always pick up, like find greater steed and aura of vitality.

[Vogie]

And Water Whip and Fist of Unbroken Air, which 1) deal as much damage as Inflict Wounds 2) at range 3) with half damage on a passed save 4) and extra effects if the save is failed. Those are level 2 spell effects.

Not necessarily - Like I mentioned, they have very similar effects to the XGtE spell Catapult. It has a larger range, but requires external objects and doesn't have a damage on passed save, which is a decent balance. Were they be spells, they would be those spells that are slightly more powerful than normal that are occasionally given to half casters.

What if, in addition to Elemental Attunement 4E monks also gained a pool of 'Chi' equal to 2* Wisdom Modifier?
The chi can only be spend on 4E disciplines and recovers on a long rest. It could increase to 3* Wis mod around lvl 11.
This allows ki to be used for monk abilities or 4E disciplines and gives a bit of a cushion for the nova or heavy discipline use without giving the monk too much nova power.

I like the idea, although the name would have to change ("Spent Chi? No, I spent Ki... no really!").

I would want it to be tied to some part of the monk rather than wisdom or proficiency so a Multiclass character wouldn't gain effectively 2x ki.

Maybe an amount of extra definitely-not-spell-slots that are based on the Martial Arts die?

[Laird]

Maybe an amount of extra definitely-not-spell-slots that are based on the Martial Arts die?

Oh I like that. So you start with Elemental Ki equal to the size of your Martial Arts die size, that may be spent on Monk Disciplines. Elemental Ki recovers on a long rest.

The only other thing is a bit more flexibility or access to disciplines but Elemental Ki shores up this subclass for me.

[Tanarii]

I disagree that there is much room to manage resources, given the ki costs, at least at levels 5-7, which is where I have seen the unhappy 4E Monks in actual play. You spend your ki on a single weak spell and then have a little left over for your other abilities till you can rest.

In other words they cast about one level 1 effect per short rest, scaling up to an level 2 effect around level 6ish. As expected for a subclass with the power (not resources) of a 1/3 caster, if they spend 1/2 their Ki on subclass magical effects.

And those effects aren't "weak", they're just lower than what a max caster can do, but still situationally more powerful than a default action for the class, thus providing additional options to the class. If you think less than a full casters top spells are "weak", no 1/3 or 1/2 caster will ever work for you

Holy crap, you're right - I was just looking at the level caps on the 4E list.

They're following half-caster progression, like a Ranger or Paladin, but transposed by a level to account for cantrip-esque effects. That's... really interesting.

The 1/3 caster comparison for a 4-Ele Monk is useful as a measure of comparative power of total combined output they can generate on the Spell Point scale. And it assumes they spend 1/2 of their available Ki. They can actually output the casting power of 2/3 caster if they choose to use all their Ki into spell effects.

[Zuras]

In other words they cast about one level 1 effect per short rest, scaling up to an level 2 effect around level 6ish. As expected for a subclass with the power (not resources) of a 1/3 caster, if they spend 1/2 their Ki on subclass magical effects.

And those effects aren't "weak", they're just lower than what a max caster can do, but still situationally more powerful than a default action for the class, thus providing additional options to the class. If you think less than a full casters top spells are "weak", no 1/3 or 1/2 caster will ever work for you

Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights both get spells that are, objectively, relatively weak at the levels at the levels they first learn them. That’s why they get features like Arcane Ambush and Eldritch Strike to enhance their effectiveness, and features like War Magic to improve their action economy. Similarly, Warlocks are constantly struggling with running out of spells in an encounter, but they are compensated with powerful cantrips and invocations.

You can certainly look at the Four Elements monk as a 1/3 caster Warlock, but if so they are severely lacking in spells known and support features. At 19th level they should be equivalent to a 7th level Warlock, who can cast 2 4th level spells and knows a total of 8, plus 3 cantrips.

The actual Four Elements monk can cast two 4th level spells using half their ki, so the spell slot math does hold up. However, they get only 5 total disciplines, no equivalent of Arcane Ambush or Eldritch Strike, and no extra invocation-like features. Instead, they get access to a few 5th level spells and the option to drain resources from their base class resource pool for more magical firepower.

That just isn’t a good trade, especially when you consider the other 1/3 casters know 3 times as many spells at that level.