Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Jack Of Rivia]

I think pursuing Xykon with an option to terminate was the logical top priority, yes, given that's exactly what he hires Roy & Co. to do. My point is simply that he didn't need Roy & Co. to do it, because chasing Xykon from his last known location- the ruins of Dorukan's Gate- would in no way have contravened the oaths of his paladins. And this is also the most expedient method of resolving Eugene's blood oath, so why would Eugene want anything else?

Securing the Order's cooperation might have been a secondary goal, but it's not the main objective.

HE ALREADY TRIED THAT. he sent Paladins to investigate Liruan's Gate, and they failed.

[Keltest]

I think pursuing Xykon with an option to terminate was the logical top priority, yes, given that's exactly what he hires Roy & Co. to do. My point is simply that he didn't need Roy & Co. to do it, because chasing Xykon from his last known location- the ruins of Dorukan's Gate- would in no way have contravened the oaths of his paladins. And this is also the most expedient method of resolving Eugene's blood oath, so why would Eugene want anything else?

Securing the Order's cooperation might have been a secondary goal, but it's not the main objective.

Shojo wants to proactively secure the other gates. He only cares about Xykon in as much as they suspect he might possibly, maybe, be going after another gate at some indeterminate point in the future. If Roy had come back from the Oracle with "Xykon is not going to try and get to any of the other gates", then Shojo would not have cared about him any more. Beyond that, as we keep saying, Shojo cannot just send the sapphire guard off without conclusively proving Xykon is a threat to their gate.He says as much. You don't believe him? Too bad, its in the text. Regardless of whether a case could be made, Shojo doesn't believe there could, and that's what matters.

[Lacuna Caster]

HE ALREADY TRIED THAT. he sent Paladins to investigate Liruan's Gate, and they failed.

Meaning what? It could never ever work under any other circumstances, and he shouldn't even try? I mean, the Order tried and failed to defend Soon's Gate, so... what, they should have sat on their thumbs and waited until the world gets eaten?

...Beyond that, as we keep saying, Shojo cannot just send the sapphire guard off without conclusively proving Xykon is a threat to their gate.

You keep saying it, and there keeps being no evidence for it. We know that Shojo sends out paladins, including Miko, on missions that have nothing to with the Gates, we know that the oath would not have prevented investigation of the ruins, and it is even reasonable to imagine that Eugene/the BoPLaG's intel on Xykon and RC would have been sufficient to waive the oath. You do not have a leg to stand on here.

[hamishspence]

Single paladins - not the Sapphire Guard as a whole. Sending the whole Guard would have been needed to have any chance of defeating Xykon if he had his powers back right before they arrive.

[Keltest]

You keep saying it, and there keeps being no evidence for it. We know that Shojo sends out paladins, including Miko, on missions that have nothing to with the Gates, we know that the oath would not have prevented investigation of the ruins, and it is even reasonable to imagine that Eugene/the BoPLaG's intel on Xykon and RC would have been sufficient to waive the oath. You do not have a leg to stand on here.

Miko and the other paladins are, independently of their role in the Sapphire Guard, members of Shojo's court, and therefore capable of acting as agents of Azure City. The only times we hear of the Guard being sent outside of AC territory for non-gate business is when they act as formal representatives of Shojo and Azure City to the courts of other lands. Furthermore, investigating the ruins would mean standing around being confused, as we have seen. While they could have done that, they are explicitly not capable of gathering any meaningful information from it, so declaring that they could then track him down from there is laughable. Miko is the best tracker they have, and she has an almighty 1 point put into Survival.

And on top of all that, Eugene knows crap all about what Xykon plans or does not plan to do to the gates, nor is it likely he cares. Literally everything the Order learn about the gates and what Xykon may or may not be doing to them comes from either the Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard or is educated guesswork made after learning about it.

[Kish]

Sending the whole Guard would have gotten them slaughtered without Xykon even taking them seriously.

We know this because he did slaughter the whole Sapphire Guard without even taking them seriously.

Shojo the Xykoncrusher, who has the resources to annihilate Xykon and that's his sole goal, is a refugee from some other webcomic--one that doesn't sound terribly high-quality to me.

[Jack Of Rivia]

Meaning what? It could never ever work under any other circumstances, and he shouldn't even try? I mean, the Order tried and failed to defend Soon's Gate, so... what, they should have sat on their thumbs and waited until the world gets eaten?


You keep saying it, and there keeps being no evidence for it. We know that Shojo sends out paladins, including Miko, on missions that have nothing to with the Gates, we know that the oath would not have prevented investigation of the ruins, and it is even reasonable to imagine that Eugene/the BoPLaG's intel on Xykon and RC would have been sufficient to waive the oath. You do not have a leg to stand on here.

Case in point, the Order KEEPS FAILING TO PROTECT THE GATES. They failed 3 times in a row, for different reasons. But still, they failed.

Try to watch it from his point of wiew. Who should i sent to deal with Xykon: my blockhead paladins, or the team.of adventurers who already defeated Xykon once?

The point is that shojo.needed the proof that Xykon WAS NOT GOING TO TARGET THE OTHERS GATES. Because he feared that, even if his paladins were able to find Xykon, they would have stopped immediatly once they realized Xykon was directed to Girard.s s or Kragoor s gate.

[Lacuna Caster]

Single paladins - not the Sapphire Guard as a whole. Sending the whole Guard would have been needed to have any chance of defeating Xykon if he had his powers back right before they arrive.

You don't need such overwhelming force if you catch Xykon before he regenerates. That's partly why chasing him is so important- not only is he the main threat to the Gates, but you have a window of opportunity for destroying him that might never be repeated. And even if you don't catch him with his pants down, just finding Xykon might give you useful intelligence on his movements and intentions.

Sending a single paladin on any dangerous mission was daft regardless for straightforward tactical reasons- there would be no-one to bring back, e.g, Miko's body or Send for help if she was incapacitated/killed/captured. But a single casting of teleport/wind-walk could have transported half a dozen Guard, plus summoned outsiders or auxiliaries, right at the site, from day one.

...investigating the ruins would mean standing around being confused, as we have seen...

And one might imagine an interesting scenario where Sangwaan, for example, talks to Roy or Durkon about using Xykon's crown and their first-hand familiarity with the lich to boost their scrying chances. Or where they capture Nale and compel him to Send to Xykon under false pretences to get some information on his whereabouts. Or where they bring Hound Archons/Inevitables to do short-range scouting & scrying and just get lucky. Or where they dig up some goblin survivors from the rubble of the keep or it's vicinity who happen to know that Xykon had an escape tunnel. (Or where, for example, a sufficiently suspicious and overzealous paladin might just leap to the conclusion that of course the nearby hobgoblin kingdom must have been colluding with the Crimson Mantle all along, and that it must be her destiny to avert this threat! I know, pssh, that's crazy talk.) Given all the other witnesses they were evidently able to dig up, why should this be so hard?

The point is that none of these options are ever pursued. No attempt to track down Xykon and Redcloak this way is ever made, because Shojo couldn't be bothered his ass to tell either the paladins or the Order that they need to get on this ASAP.

And on top of all that, Eugene knows crap all about what Xykon plans or does not plan to do to the gates, nor is it likely he cares...

No. All he cares about is making Xykon dead. So why doesn't he prod Shojo to send the paladins to do that? There's nothing to stop Eugene from just lying to the paladins about Xykon's plans, and saying he gave some big speech about planning to blow up the world. And again, if anyone else in the Guard just asked "was there a goblin with a red cloak?" he could- truthfully- reply that there was, and then Shojo has all the pretext he needs, though given one can very reasonably infer that Xykon killed both Dorukan and most of his followers, that seems like pretext enough.

[The Pilgrim]

But what would stop Eugene, presenting himself as the Being of Pure Law and Good, which he has to do anyway in order to rig the trial, from just telling the Guard what he knew about Xykon and Redcloak? That is the precise purpose for which he was originally summoned.

I'm not saying that the Guard wouldn't have wanted the Order arrested at some point, but if Shojo's objective was to capture the Order alive and unharmed so he could subsequently pressure them with a rigged trial, then... essentially everything he did to secure that objective was flat-out daft. And again, I think if Xykon & RC had been explained properly to the guard, the Order themselves would be a secondary problem.

Fair point. However, if Eugene had been revealed to the Guard earlier than the trial, a few problems would arise. A summoned spirit is expected to return to it's plane after accomplishing the goal for which it was summoned. Not to loiter around in your room for weeks or months until the trial. And neither Shojo nor Eugene could afford to have the illusionist sent back up there, as the Celestials would have prevented him from coming down back for the trial. And Shojo definitely needed him to rig the trial.

These reasons are all wrong, stupid and/or unreasonably petty. Wind Walk is a level 6 cleric spell, the High Priest of the Twelve could cast it multiple time a day. Any security concerns that applied viz-a-viz state secrets and the teleporting wizard would also have applied to Roy's mission to capture Nale, and that didn't stop Shojo from lending Roy teleport services. And Miko's personality issues are not a sufficient reason to endanger the whole damn planet.

Miko's personality issues are actually sufficient reason to justify sending her alone and not in the company of more people.

Wind Walk still has a limited duration. So maybe the High Priest cast it on Miko for the first leg of the Journey and then the spell wore off. The High Priest of course has too many important duties to attend to actually lose time in a field trip.

Security concerns didn't apply with Roy's mission as Roy and the OOTS are not part of the Sapphire Guard. Revealing Shojo has hired a band of adventurers to accomplish some minor errand, is not the same as revealing the existence of your Secret Organization of Paladins.

[hamishspence]

You don't need such overwhelming force if you catch Xykon before he regenerates.

And regeneration time is random, with a minimum duration of only one day.

[Lacuna Caster]

Try to watch it from his point of wiew. Who should i sent to deal with Xykon: my blockhead paladins, or the team.of adventurers who already defeated Xykon once?

So, he's going to assume that the same blockhead paladins- actually, paladin, singular- are totally capable of locating and capturing the ostensibly badass Order of the Stick? Who already blew up one of the Gates?

Bear in mind that the only reason the Order were even able to find Xykon was by using the Oracle as a plot-crutch, and- not to belabour the point- but there was nothing to stop Shojo from using the Oracle himself. I mean, people like to point out that Miko only had one rank in survival, but it was one more rank than Belkar had, and there was nothing to stop the Guard from summoning outsiders who do have actual tracking skills.

And regeneration time is random, with a minimum duration of only one day.

What is your argument here, hamish? You don't have a 100% chance of a slam-dunk, so you shouldn't take the shot? I already covered this before.

[Keltest]

No. All he cares about is making Xykon dead. So why doesn't he prod Shojo to send the paladins to do that? There's nothing to stop Eugene from just lying to the paladins about Xykon's plans, and saying he gave some big speech about planning to blow up the world. And again, if anyone else in the Guard just asked "was there a goblin with a red cloak?" he could- truthfully- reply that there was, and then Shojo has all the pretext he needs, though given one can very reasonably infer that Xykon killed both Dorukan and most of his followers, that seems like pretext enough.

Why should Shojo try and track Xykon with magic when the Oracle, who is both close by and has already demonstrated the ability to unerringly locate him, is available? Had Roy not outsmarted himself, they would have been well prepared for Xykon and his army, and even then the Oracle gave them exactly what they asked for.

As for Eugene, why should Shojo care about what he wants? Shojo is not Eugene's minion, and his cooperation is only marginally necessary. While he has been helpful, Shojo is not beholden to Eugene's goals in any way.

Eugene "You should send your paladins to annihilate him!"
Shojo: "No, that wont work, i'd never be able to get the paladins to act as a hit squad that far away on your word alone."

And that's how that conversation would end.

[hamishspence]

What is your argument here, hamish? You don't have a 100% chance of a slam-dunk, so you shouldn't take the shot?

The problem is - if he takes the shot and fails, he potentially dooms his own city.

As it is, it turns out that Xykon and Redcloak were going to head for Azure City anyway - but he didn't know that, at the time.

[Peelee]

Bear in mind that the only reason the Order were even able to find Xykon was by using the Oracle as a plot-crutch, and- not to belabour the point- but there was nothing to stop Shojo from using the Oracle himself.

Except, of course, the Oracle. He left for Xykon, he could have left for Shojo or his minions. And before you ask why, because he's the Oracle and doesn't have to answer to you, that's why. Maybe he just hates Shojo. Maybe he Doctor Strange'd it. Maybe he just happened to be out shopping when Shojo came calling. Point is, there's plenty of possible explanations. That you may dislike them is a problem for you, not for the story.
ETA:

What is your argument here, hamish? You don't have a 100% chance of a slam-dunk, so you shouldn't take the shot? I already covered this before.

"You come at the king, you'd best not miss." - Omar Little.

[Lacuna Caster]

Fair point. However, if Eugene had been revealed to the Guard earlier than the trial, a few problems would arise. A summoned spirit is expected to return to it's plane after accomplishing the goal for which it was summoned. Not to loiter around in your room for weeks or months until the trial. And neither Shojo nor Eugene could afford to have the illusionist sent back up there, as the Celestials would have prevented him from coming down back for the trial. And Shojo definitely needed him to rig the trial...

No he doesn't. The purpose of rigging the trial was to pressure Roy to work for him, which actually works better if Roy is found guilty, not innocent, and he doesn't need Roy to work for him if he can convince the paladins that Xykon is a threat.

Miko's personality issues are actually sufficient reason to justify sending her alone and not in the company of more people.

Wind Walk still has a limited duration. So maybe the High Priest cast it on Miko for the first leg of the Journey and then the spell wore off. The High Priest of course has too many important duties to attend to actually lose time in a field trip...

What duties could the High Priest possibly have that are more important than preventing the end of the world? And sending Miko alone was, in itself, a significant risk to both her and the mission. You know, the mission to prevent the world from ending.

Security concerns didn't apply with Roy's mission as Roy and the OOTS are not part of the Sapphire Guard. Revealing Shojo has hired a band of adventurers to accomplish some minor errand...

Stop trying to twist this around. To Shojo's knowledge, Roy's mission was not a minor errand- he was actively chasing down Xykon on a mission of global importance, and Roy even blabs both the mission and his own deception in front of the same wizard. Roy and Co. working for Shojo to hunt down Xykon is precisely what Shojo was trying to keep concealed. So I think Shojo's concerns over secrecy here have been greatly exaggerated.

[Keltest]

No he doesn't. The purpose of rigging the trial was to pressure Roy to work for him, which actually works better if Roy is found guilty, not innocent, and he doesn't need Roy to work for him if he can convince the paladins that Xykon is a threat.

Except if Roy is found guilty, he is thrown in prison or executed or whatever it is the Sapphire Guard does to existential threats to reality. He definitely doesn't go free and largely unsupervised, able to act on Shojo's plans.

[hamishspence]

Except if Roy is found guilty, he is thrown in prison or executed or whatever it is the Sapphire Guard does to existential threats to reality.

Executed, according to Miko "Crimes for which the only possible punishment is death."

And Roy Vaarsuvius brings up "standing trial for a capital crime" as one of the complaints.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html

[Peelee]

Except if Roy is found guilty, he is thrown in prison or executed or whatever it is the Sapphire Guard does to existential threats to reality. He definitely doesn't go free and largely unsupervised, able to act on Shojo's plans.

Executed, according to Miko "Crimes for which the only possible punishment is death."

And Roy brings up "standing trial for a capital crime" as one of his complaints.

Not to mention that the "not guilty" verdict was from a rigged trial, so revealing that and retrying would result in a guilty verdict (even Haley admits this). So it's very much a good threat to hang over Roy's head.

[Lacuna Caster]

Why should Shojo try and track Xykon with magic when the Oracle, who is both close by and has already demonstrated the ability to unerringly locate him, is available? Had Roy not outsmarted himself, they would have been well prepared for Xykon and his army, and even then the Oracle gave them exactly what they asked for...

Yes, that is an additional reason for why Shojo doesn't need the Order. He could have sent any of his own minions to the Oracle himself.

As for Eugene, why should Shojo care about what he wants? Shojo is not Eugene's minion, and his cooperation is only marginally necessary. While he has been helpful, Shojo is not beholden to Eugene's goals in any way.

Whoa whoa whoa. Pilgrim has been telling me that Eugene was essential to rigging the trial that Shojo needed to rig in order to pressure the Order to cooperate. I don't agree with any of this, but are you telling me now that rigging the trial was superfluous?

Except, of course, the Oracle. He left for Xykon, he could have left for Shojo or his minions. And before you ask why, because he's the Oracle and doesn't have to answer to you, that's why. Maybe he just hates Shojo...

He hated Roy as well, but that didn't stop him opening for business. And one might imagine he left for Xykon precisely because he doesn't want the world to end.

"You come at the king, you'd best not miss." - Omar Little.

"Therefore I will arm and equip six incompetent near-total strangers who all know my name to come at the king instead, after he's nicely well-rested."

[Peelee]

He hated Roy as well, but that didn't stop him opening for business. And one might imagine he left for Xykon precisely because he doesn't want the world to end.

He shot at the king. He missed.

Maybe he just hates Shojo. Maybe he Doctor Strange'd it. Maybe he just happened to be out shopping when Shojo came calling. Point is, there's plenty of possible explanations. That you may dislike them is a problem for you, not for the story.

[hamishspence]

"Therefore I will arm and equip six incompetent near-total strangers who all know my name to come at the king instead, after he's nicely well-rested."

Not "to come at Xykon" (that's their own personal goal) - to investigate the other gates to see if Xykon is threatening them.

[Keltest]

Yes, that is an additional reason for why Shojo doesn't need the Order. He could have sent any of his own minions to the Oracle himself.

He cant send the Guard because that would be interference in the defenses of another gate. He cant send his other minions because that would require informing them about the gates. Shojo explicitly needs somebody who knows about the gates but is not beholden to Soon's oath. Again, he specifically spells out his thought process here.

Whoa whoa whoa. Pilgrim has been telling me that Eugene was essential to rigging the trial that Shojo needed to rig in order to pressure the Order to cooperate. I don't agree with any of this, but are you telling me now that rigging the trial was superfluous?

Eugene was essential in as much as Shojo needed an apparently impartial arbiter who was actually on his side. While Eugene was the most convenient candidate, that's not the only way Shojo could have done it in a pinch.

"Therefore I will arm and equip six incompetent near-total strangers who all know my name to come at the king instead, after he's nicely well-rested."

Please tell me where Shojo tries to convince Roy and the Order to go after Xykon by themselves with no backup from the Guard. Because this seems like another scene from that comic you've been reading that isn't the Order of the Stick but uses the same character names.

[Lacuna Caster]

Except if Roy is found guilty, he is thrown in prison or executed or whatever it is the Sapphire Guard does to existential threats to reality. He definitely doesn't go free and largely unsupervised, able to act on Shojo's plans.

Oh, he most likely goes to prison, sure. At which point, Shojo can do what Hinjo did with prisoners during the siege, and offer them parole/reprieve in exchange for good behaviour.

Executed, according to Miko "Crimes for which the only possible punishment is death."

This was presumably with reference to the crimes committed by the Linear Guild (and Belkar. And if we're taking Miko's word as gospel, I would remind you that she repeatedly claims that Shojo ordered their execution.)

[Keltest]

Oh, he most likely goes to prison, sure. At which point, Shojo can do what Hinjo did with prisoners during the siege, and offer them parole/reprieve in exchange for good behaviour.

The Sapphire Guard is going to have some very intense questions as to what, exactly, Shojo is doing with these prisoners. And that is, again, assuming that they don't just get executed on the spot, a possibility which you are doing little to acknowledge or refute.

[hamishspence]

This was presumably with reference to the crimes committed by the Linear Guild (and Belkar.)

Nope:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

It's pretty clear that they are being tried solely for "weakening the fabric of existence" and that "Should you be found guilty" would have been followed with "You will be executed" had the Order not interrupted.

[Lacuna Caster]

He shot at the king. He missed.

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. In any case, the absence of an actual explanation is not a virtue of the text.

Not "to come at Xykon" (that's their own personal goal) - to investigate the other gates to see if Xykon is threatening them.

You don't need to investigate the other Gates if you find Xykon by tracking him from his last known location. There was no reason why the paladins couldn't be dispatched on this errand, completely independently from whether Roy & Co. were sent on other missions. And if Shojo had explained the threat that Xykon and Redcloak had posed, there was an excellent chance the paladins would agree to investigate the other Gates.

[hamishspence]

You don't need to investigate the other Gates if you find Xykon by tracking him from his last known location.

Which one would expect to take longer than even the maximum regeneration time.

if we're taking Miko's word as gospel, I would remind you that she repeatedly claims that Shojo ordered their execution.)

That's because, from her perspective, their guilt has already been proven by diviners, the punishment is mandatory, and so, the trial is an unnecessary formality (but, since Shojo has insisted, she will make an effort to ensure they actually get to Azure City for it).

Hence she says "Their execution has been ordered" when she means "Their trial followed by execution has been ordered".

[Keltest]

You don't need to investigate the other Gates if you find Xykon by tracking him from his last known location. There was no reason why the paladins couldn't be dispatched on this errand, completely independently from whether Roy & Co. were sent on other missions. And if Shojo had explained the threat that Xykon and Redcloak had posed, there was an excellent chance the paladins would agree to investigate the other Gates.

Im sorry, are you now trying to use your claim that Shojo could have just dispatched the guard to kill Xykon, to support your claim that Shojo could have just dispatched the guard to kill Xykon? Because that's sure what it looks like.

[Peelee]

I don't know what this is supposed to mean. In any case, the absence of an actual explanation is not a virtue of the text.

It means that simply knowing you need a good plan doesn't mean you make a good plan. People can be fallible. Shojo can believe his paranoia that saved him in Azure City will also save him from Xykon. That doesn't mean he's correct.

Again, that you choose to read it differently is your problem, not the story's problem.

[Lacuna Caster]

The Sapphire Guard is going to have some very intense questions as to what, exactly, Shojo is doing with these prisoners...

All of this logic applied to liberating Belkar and imprisoning the Linear Guild, Keltest, but Shojo somehow nonetheless finds a way to brush aside all these perfectly reasonable questions whenever it suits the story.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0267.html

It's pretty clear that they are being tried solely for "weakening the fabric of existence" and that "Should you be found guilty" would have been followed with "You will be executed" had the Order not interrupted.

I don't see any indication in the strip you quoted that the penalty for their crimes would be execution- Eugene might give the impression, but he's not an authority on azurite law.

So again, are you saying that Miko's comments here are reliable or not?