Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[Lacuna Caster]

Telling Miko she was "special" and "Chosen" is portrayed as the most important factor in Shojo's death:

I... don't see what this has to do with the current topic?

IMO that contradicts what we actually see too much.

Well, I guess I'd rather bend my interpretation of flashback panels a little than bend my interpretation of sanity a lot.

[hamishspence]

The commentary for Paladin Blues is pretty clear about Shojo's reasons for sending Miko after the Order:



What I came up with was essentially a person in the OOTS world who was in the same position as me. Shojo needed to get Roy to Azure City to get him to listen, but couldn't do so openly. He needed to sneak around behind the backs of his own servants because of their rigid oaths. This had the added benefit of keeping the information secret from the person who was enacting the plan - specifically, Miko. And if Miko didn't know the details, then there was no way the readers could accidentally know them before I was ready to spill the beans. Thus, we first see Miko playing the fool for Shojo, carrying out orders that run directly against the protocol of the Sapphire Guard without her knowledge.

I... don't see what this has to do with the current topic?

It's a response to zimmerwald1915:

The Burlew quote you pull out notably does not say that asking the Paladins to reconsider their oaths would have ended well. It merely says the obvious: that Shojo's chosen course of action ended badly.

Well, I guess I'd rather bend my interpretation of flashback panels a little than bend my interpretation of sanity a lot.

It isn't just Shojo's flashback panels, but Eugene's as well.

[Lacuna Caster]

That's a good point-- we don't really know what the procedure is for Azure City once a gate is blown. Maybe the procedure is that their diviners and scryers automatically try to detect who destroyed it and then determine if there is a further threat. What can Shojo really do then that won't look suspicious? "Uh, actually, I want you to Send them a message instead. And, uh, I promise this message doesn't contain anything that would violate our oath never to divulge The Secret Lore of the Sapphire Guard. Totally unrelated."

Yes. We don't know what the procedure for AC is. So why keep people saying that Shojo could not have sent to Roy?

You quoted me and agreed but then drew the opposite conclusion. What I implied from "We don't know what the procedures are" is "We don't know how Shojo might be restricted in what he can do." You seem to have inferred "We should assume Shojo can do whatever he wants."

Well, if it's just the question of whether he could Send to the order... yeah, that's trivial. He was able to arrange for the Mark of Justice through outsourcing, there's no reason why any high-level follower couldn't Send on his behalf. The trick would be getting the Order to shut up about it once arrested.

But as I see it, it's perfectly reasonable for Shojo to say, "the Being of Pure Law and Good informs me that the Order should be willing to come quietly if properly induced, so I shall contact them and ask them to rendezvous for collection." Compared with everything else Shojo gets away with, this seems like a minor obstacle.

[hamishspence]

But as I see it, it's perfectly reasonable for Shojo to say, "the Being of Pure Law and Good informs me that the Order should be willing to come quietly if properly induced, so I shall contact them and ask them to rendezvous for collection." Compared with everything else Shojo gets away with, this seems like a minor obstacle.

The pot required Shojo to be "pulling schemes behind the Sapphire Guard's backs":

I have no idea what actions Shojo may or may not have taken prior to the beginning of the comic, because I didn't spend any time figuring that out. What I did was have a plot that required that guy on the throne to be pulling schemes behind the backs of the paladins while still serving as a patron to the mostly-Good OOTS, and thought, "Yeah, that sounds Chaotic Good to me. Write it. Done."

[Kish]

For my part, I'm sure Shojo, the paranoid ruler of Azure City who viewed everyone as his chesspieces, could have invited the Order to Azure City without the arrest pretext--as I've said before. If he had chosen to.

That does not mean it constitutes a plot hole that he didn't.

(Feel free to treat the load of banging on the table about how the only possible way Shojo could have thought is that of the focused and supremely rational Xykoncrusher you think he should have been as already stated, Lacuna; you must be getting nearly as tired of typing it as I am of reading it by now.)

[Lacuna Caster]

The commentary for Paladin Blues is pretty clear about Shojo's reasons for sending Miko after the Order:

What I came up with was essentially a person in the OOTS world who was in the same position as me. Shojo needed to get Roy to Azure City to get him to listen, but couldn't do so openly. He needed to sneak around behind the backs of his own servants because of their rigid oaths. This had the added benefit of keeping the information secret from the person who was enacting the plan - specifically, Miko. And if Miko didn't know the details, then there was no way the readers could accidentally know them before I was ready to spill the beans. Thus, we first see Miko playing the fool for Shojo, carrying out orders that run directly against the protocol of the Sapphire Guard without her knowledge.

Yeah, but that reasoning doesn't add up, for... all of the reasons we've been talking about. I mean, to take only one point, the protocols of the sapphire guard presumably allow for arresting/executing people involved in blowing up the Gates, and indeed it would be difficult for Shojo to avoid an expedition being mounted for that purpose. What's miraculous is that Miko, and only Miko, was sent, over land, while under the impression she was supposed to execute them.

It isn't just Shojo's flashback panels, but Eugene's as well.

Yeah, I'm aware. Still breaks less of my suspension of disbelief.

Look, I'm aware there are all kinds of meta reasons for the story turning out this way, and I'm not saying it negates any and all dramatic impetus or humour or witty banter or character development, et cetera. I'm just pointing out that there's an inconsistency between how magic works in this world and what Shojo/Eugene ostensibly knew and the diversity of expertise in the Guard and how they behaved in the early story, and it's better to just acknowledge this and move on rather than thrash around trying to square the circle.

[hamishspence]

For my part, I'm sure Shojo, the paranoid ruler of Azure City who viewed everyone as his chesspieces, could have invited the Order to Azure City without the arrest pretext--as I've said before. If he had chosen to.

That does not mean it constitutes a plot hole that he didn't.

I lean to the view that Eugene came up with the whole thing, and Shojo signed off on it:

Paladin Blues Commentary:

If the last chapter contained the climax of the book, this is the denouement, wherein Roy learns the mastermind behind all of his recent woes: his own father. I'd made it a point to not have Eugene show up to congratulate his son back when the dungeon was blown up in the last book precisely because doing so would have blown the whistle on the fact that Xykon was still kicking. So instead, he becomes the architect of an almost ludicrously complex scheme designed to get Roy in a certain place at a certain time so that he can hear what he has to say.

[Kish]

I find that kind of problematic because I would expect Eugene to be more directly focused on Xykon and less on the Gates than Shojo.

However, I could see something where Eugene proposed sending the Sapphire Guard and the wizard who could cast Teleport after Xykon, Shojo balked at the blatant "you and all your resources act as my pawns now!" self-serving manipulation of this proposal, and they finally arrived, by a route of neither trusting each other or anyone else, at having the Order brought to Azure City to conduct Gate investigations for Shojo, and (as Eugene spelled out) hopefully gather information on Xykon's resources for Eugene.

[Lacuna Caster]

I lean to the view that Eugene came up with the whole thing, and Shojo signed off on it...

Which... unfortunately, makes even less sense, since one can reasonably presume that Eugene (A) wants Xykon dead, and (B) knows that teleport and sending spells exist. If Shojo were genuinely senile I could maybe forgive a certain degree of erratic judgment, but that's not really canon either, and Eugene, among others, have no excuse.

However, I could see something where Eugene proposed sending the Sapphire Guard and the wizard who could cast Teleport after Xykon, Shojo balked at the blatant "you and all your resources act as my pawns now!" self-serving manipulation of this proposal, and they finally arrived, by a route of neither trusting each other or anyone else, at having the Order brought to Azure City to conduct Gate investigations for Shojo, and (as Eugene spelled out) hopefully gather information on Xykon's resources for Eugene.

Even if collecting the Order were their top priority- which it really should not have been- there's still no reason not to use teleport, barely any reason not to Send in advance, and little reason to send Miko instead of O-Chul, Hinjo, et al. to do the collection.

.

[hamishspence]

I find that kind of problematic because I would expect Eugene to be more directly focused on Xykon and less on the Gates than Shojo.

Which... unfortunately, makes even less sense, since one can reasonably presume that Eugene (A) wants Xykon dead, and (B) knows that teleport and sending spells exist.

From Eugene's perspective, the whole thing is "I need to, personally, tell Roy that Xykon is alive"
From Shojo's perspective, the whole thing is "I need to recruit the Order to do Gate-related things the paladins won't do"

[Lacuna Caster]

From Eugene's perspective, the whole thing is "I need to, personally, tell Roy that Xykon is alive"
From Shojo's perspective, the whole thing is "I need to recruit the Order to do Gate-related things the paladins won't do"

Yes, hamish, but there's no clear reason for that to be the 'whole thing' from their perspective.

And, again, even if collecting the Order were their top priority- which it really should not have been- there's still no reason not to use teleport, barely any reason not to Send in advance, and little reason to send Miko instead of O-Chul, Hinjo, et al. to do the collection.

[hamishspence]

Even if collecting the Order were their top priority- which it really should not have been- there's still no reason not to use teleport, barely any reason not to Send in advance, and little reason to send Miko instead of O-Chul, Hinjo, et al. to do the collection.

Eugene is, as The Giant puts it, a "jerk" - he probably wanted Roy dragged there in chains, so to him Miko was the perfect choice.

[Lacuna Caster]

Eugene is, as The Giant puts it, a "jerk" - he probably wanted Roy dragged there in chains, so to him Miko was the perfect choice.

A jerk he may be, but he's a jerk who really wants to get his ticket punched to the pearly gates ASAP, and I doubt that he actively wanted Roy and his friends to be killed. Which was a realistic possibility if both they and Miko weren't properly briefed in advance.

[hamishspence]

Which was a realistic possibility if both they and Miko weren't properly briefed in advance.

As long as the possibility is sufficiently low, he's ready to take the risk.

As Durkon points out, it's entirely possible that, without the benefits of surprise and weather, Miko could have been the one killed, too:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

little reason to send Miko instead of O-Chul, Hinjo, et al. to do the collection.

Miko is significantly more powerful than those two. Even without her items, she beats Hinjo easily.

[Kish]

Miko is also the Sapphire Guard's tracker. Whatever scrying resources you can argue they have, there's a simple, obvious reason why it was never going to be "send Hinjo on Argent or send O-Chul, who doesn't have a paladin's mount, on a nonmagical horse," and each argument for Shojo investing more resources in bringing back the Order, or especially in communicating with them first, goes in the direction of objecting to the presence of Shojo the paranoid and self-serving ruler of Azure City and the absence of Shojo the Xykoncrusher.

[Lacuna Caster]

As long as the possibility is sufficiently low, he's ready to take the risk.

As Durkon points out, it's entirely possible that, without the benefits of surprise and weather, Miko could have been the one killed, too:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0201.html

...Right. And this is a desireable outcome because...?

A good way to keep the possibility of fatalities 'sufficiently low' would be to tell Miko, for example, "The halfling is evil, so watch out for him, but two-thirds of the party are good-aligned, so try hard to bring them back alive. Also, they have some evil twins running around the place, watch out for that. Actually, I should probably give you their full names and descriptions, write this down..."

You know, standard, straightforward intelligence that Sangwaan should have been able to provide through Scrying, never mind Eugene's long acquaintance.

Miko is significantly more powerful than those two. Even without her items, she beats Hinjo easily.

Which would be relevant if the plan were to beat the Order into submission. But it isn't. Plan A is to persuade them delicately to come along quiet-like so you don't skewer or alienate your prospective hires. Send in Hinjo and/or O-Chul first, then follow up with Miko, Lien and other backup if diplomacy fails.

.

[hamishspence]

A good way to keep the possibility of fatalities 'sufficiently low' would be to tell Miko, for example, "The halfling is evil, so watch out for him, but two-thirds of the party are good-aligned, so try hard to bring them back alive.

Just "Try hard to bring them back alive" is simpler. And it's close to what he actually says.

remember that, from his point of view, he has to keep up his masquerade.

[Lacuna Caster]

Miko is also the Sapphire Guard's tracker. Whatever scrying resources you can argue they have, there's a simple, obvious reason why it was never going to be "send Hinjo on Argent or send O-Chul, who doesn't have a paladin's mount, on a nonmagical horse,"...

Again, mounts are largely redundant when you have wind walk and teleport spells, though I suppose there's nothing to stop O-Chul riding double on Argent. And tracking is largely redundant when you have long-range divination spells.

Just "Try hard to bring them back alive" is simpler. And it's what he actually says.

No... what he says is that his cat says to try hard, without giving any specific reasons for Miko to do so. And the goal here is not for Shojo to be terse and pithy. The goal is for Shojo to give Miko the information she needs to maximise her chances of survival and victory without killing the suspects. Or, you know, send multiple paladins/clerics so you have both diplomatic, divination and combat expertise in the same party.

[hamishspence]

No... what he says is that his cat says to try hard, without giving any specific reasons for Miko to do so.

Anything he claims his cat is saying, he's saying.

The goal is for Shojo to give Miko the information she needs to maximise her chances of survival and victory without killing the suspects.

Which would kind of make it obvious that he's been lying about being senile, for the past few years.

[Lacuna Caster]

Anything he claims his cat is saying, he's saying.

Sure. While giving the maximum impression of senility. Again, this does not seem to be equipping Miko for a bloodless victory.

Which would kind of make it obvious that he's been lying about being senile, for the past few years.

Then have Sangwaan or the BoPLaG convey this information. Like they should have been doing by default.

[Kish]

Just "Try hard to bring them back alive" is simpler. And it's close to what he actually says.

remember that, from his point of view, he has to keep up his masquerade.

Given how quickly Miko discarded specific orders to "try hard to bring them back alive"--including not bothering to check if Haley, Vaarsuvius, or Belkar was evil after "confirming" that Roy was and also that Durkon and Elan were not--it strikes me as giving her way more benefit of the doubt than would make any sense to assume that telling her "two-third of them are good-aligned" would impede her attack. Indeed, precisely what Lacuna suggests would, I think, have exactly one effect: it would ensure that Miko would only agree to stop fighting if the Order let her kill Belkar first, which they wouldn't do and thus it would be a battle to the death on first meeting.

(I also wonder where Shojo would get specific information on the alignment of anyone but Roy. His information source is Eugene, who never met any of the other members of the Order in life and never seemed at all interested in any of them except, briefly, Vaarsuvius, in death--and his interest in Vaarsuvius highlighted his utter disregard for moral considerations.)

[Lacuna Caster]

Given how quickly Miko discarded specific orders to "try hard to bring them back alive"--including not bothering to check if Haley, Vaarsuvius, or Belkar was evil after "confirming" that Roy was and also that Durkon and Elan were not--it strikes me as giving her way more benefit of the doubt than would make any sense to assume that telling her "two-third of them are good-aligned" would impede her attack...

It impeded her attack in the middle of the actual battle, Kish. She specifically stands down and avoids killing Roy the second she has evidence for him not being evil (and only used nonlethal attacks against the rest of the team during their first battle.)

I also wonder where Shojo would get specific information on the alignment of anyone but Roy. His information source is Eugene, who never met any of the other members of the Order in life...

The various Detect spells can function through scrying spells. In any case, if you're saying that Shojo knew Miko was bloodthirsty enough that this information would only backfire, then sending her to arrest the Order was never a good idea.

[hamishspence]

In any case, if you're saying that Shojo knew Miko was bloodthirsty enough that this information would only backfire, then sending her to arrest the Order was never a good idea.

We know that he knows that she is, at the very least, "a bit overzealous". What else Shojo knows, we can't be certain of.

[Lacuna Caster]

We know that he knows that she is, at the very least, "a bit overzealous". What else Shojo knows, we can't be certain of.

If Shojo had enough confidence in Miko's restraint to send her on this mission at all, then he had an obligation to furnish her the proper intelligence required to not risk bloody disaster.

I mean, to be fair, Miko herself should really be asking Sangwaan for this kind of data... in the same sense she should really be hiring a wizard for teleport services... but to the extent this reflects poorly on her it reflects appallingly on Shojo and Eugene, who already know enough about the Order that minimising bloodshed should be important to them. And Eugene, again, has no excuse for not knowing about teleport and sending spells.
.

[hamishspence]

The various Detect spells can function through scrying spells.

If Sangwaan is only a 12th level wizard rather than 13th level, she won't have Greater Scrying.

[Ruck]

We know that he knows that she is, at the very least, "a bit overzealous". What else Shojo knows, we can't be certain of.

As I've said before again and again-- it's almost like Shojo overestimating the control he has over Miko's violent tendencies ends up being his fatal flaw.

[Lacuna Caster]

As I've said before again and again-- it's almost like Shojo overestimating the control he has over Miko's violent tendencies ends up being his fatal flaw.

I... don't really see Miko's violent tendencies being especially in evidence during her early appearances. And this doesn't address the dozen other problems here.

If Sangwaan is only a 12th level wizard rather than 13th level, she won't have Greater Scrying.

Sure, but even if she's the minimum level (7) required to cast scrying, that's a 35% chance for Detect spells to work. Repeat the spells twenty times and you're virtually certain to build up a composite picture. At minimum I would expect the guard to know the Order's names and appearances, on top of whatever Eugene/the BoPLaG can tell them, which is not trivial.

[Kish]

As I've said before again and again-- it's almost like Shojo overestimating the control he has over Miko's violent tendencies ends up being his fatal flaw.

Indeed. The only reaction I can imagine having to "sending her to arrest the Order [wasn't] a good idea" is, *blink blink* Really.

But what Lacuna cannot or will not even try to grasp here, is that "this character did something that wasn't a good idea!" will never, ever be the definition of a plot hole.

[hamishspence]

Eugene, again, has no excuse for not knowing about teleport and sending spells.

Eugene knows of them - he just doesn't spend any effort to recommend that they be used.

At minimum I would expect the guard to know the Order's names and appearances, on top of whatever Eugene/the BoPLaG can tell them, which is not trivial.

Miko got a description - it was just one that was as compatible with Nale as with Elan:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0203.html

and presumably for Roy it was "Big bald fighter".

[Ruck]

Indeed. The only reaction I can imagine having to "sending her to arrest the Order [wasn't] a good idea" is, *blink blink* Really.

But what Lacuna cannot or will not even try to grasp here, is that "this character did something that wasn't a good idea!" will never, ever be the definition of a plot hole.

I'm pretty certain there's a quote from Rich somewhere along the lines of "Why didn't Character X take Optimal Action Y instead?" and his response is something along the lines of "Because then there wouldn't be a story."