Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[woweedd]

Having a single conversation in a bar, as the first time you've interacted with someone, does not a friendship make. Certainly not the kind where you'd confide in a person.

We know that Haley thinks of V as closer then the rest of The Order, such that not only do they always room together, but she knew V was married, long before the rest of the part, and she notes, vis-a-vis her deepest darkest secret, that she “hasn’t even told V that one.” Indeed, a large part of the reason I used to believe V was female was because of their friendship with Haley.

[zimmerwald1915]

We know that Haley thinks of V as closer then the rest of The Order, such that not only do they always room together,

Vaarsuvius is the one who insists on rooming "only with Miss Starshine," so I'm afraid you have that backwards. And that could be for any number of reasons, from finding the guys cretinous to wanting a less crowded room.

but she knew V was married, long before the rest of the part, and she notes, vis-a-vis her deepest darkest secret, that she “hasn’t even told V that one.”

What we have here is 1) another example of Vaarsuvius trusting Haley over the guys, which might say something about whether Vaarsuvius is likely to share information with Haley but not the reverse, and 2) an example of Haley withholding information from Vaarsuvius.

Neither of which goes to show that Haley would share information she knows with Vaarsuvius. If anything, they go to show the opposite.

[Prinygod]

Why would she know that?

To add on to what has already been said, even though v learned a lesson about seeking power, they would still want to know why their spells failed. They also ran into resistance with the spell when epic teleporting into it. V would have at least enough curiosity to ask if they got any of message spells.

[Aquillion]

We know that Haley thinks of V as closer then the rest of The Order, such that not only do they always room together, but she knew V was married, long before the rest of the part, and she notes, vis-a-vis her deepest darkest secret, that she “hasn’t even told V that one.” Indeed, a large part of the reason I used to believe V was female was because of their friendship with Haley.

I mentioned this above, but I see this as part of the "tell, don't show" problem I mentioned above. We've seen a lot of things telling us there's a close relationship between V and Haley. We haven't actually seen much of it onscreen.

When was the last time they had a serious one-on-one discussion onscreen? I feel like... maybe there was one where they discussed Elan? But perhaps not. Haley being rendered unable to talk for a major part of that plot arc certainly doesn't help, of course.

I don't want to talk about the Bechdel test, because V isn't confirmed as female per-se, but it is sort of notable that the two members of the order who are not unambiguously male haven't had much interaction despite the story telling us they're close.

[Fyraltari]

Vaarsuvius is the one who insists on rooming "only with Miss Starshine," so I'm afraid you have that backwards. And that could be for any number of reasons, from finding the guys cretinous to wanting a less crowded room.


What we have here is 1) another example of Vaarsuvius trusting Haley over the guys, which might say something about whether Vaarsuvius is likely to share information with Haley but not the reverse, and 2) an example of Haley withholding information from Vaarsuvius.

Neither of which goes to show that Haley would share information she knows with Vaarsuvius. If anything, they go to show the opposite.

Why would Haley withhold that info?
Even forgetting Haley, Belkar and Roy both knew about this. Do you think nether of the three (okay two) would think of discusting the spellcasting abilities of their ennemy with their wizard?

[Ruck]

Having a single conversation in a bar, as the first time you've interacted with someone, does not a friendship make. Certainly not the kind where you'd confide in a person.

I don't think we were supposed to get the impression it was the first time they interacted; rather that their casualness indicated prior familiarity.

I grant that there's not a whole lot of interaction between just the two of them in the strip-- between adventuring and party-splitting and all that-- but what there is, I think, is consistent with the idea that they were friends before the Order formed.

[zimmerwald1915]

Even forgetting Haley, Belkar and Roy both knew about this. Do you think nether of the three (okay two) would think of discusting the spellcasting abilities of their ennemy with their wizard?

Belkar certainly wouldn't. He'd forget, or deliberately withhold information because it'd be funny to see Xykon kill Vaarsuvius.

As for Roy, he's the one who needs information, not his subordinates. Their understanding of his orders, which he makes with the complete information, is not required - only their obedience. In fact, it is better that they not have all the information, because it keeps them dependent upon him.

[zimmerwald1915]

I don't think we were supposed to get the impression it was the first time they interacted; rather that their casualness indicated prior familiarity.

I haven't the book in front of me for a close reading, but that is not at all the impression I got. Vaarsuvius had only recently left the Elven Lands, and the Iron Mage competition was more or less the first thing she did in the wider world. Where would she have met Haley before that?

[Fyraltari]

Belkar certainly wouldn't. He'd forget, or deliberately withhold information because it'd be funny to see Xykon kill Vaarsuvius.

No argument

As for Roy, he's the one who needs information, not his subordinates. Their understanding of his orders, which he makes with the complete information, is not required - only their obedience. In fact, it is better that they not have all the information, because it keeps them dependent upon him.

This leeson on leadership was brought to you by the Cersei Lannister school of politics and personnal relationship.

Dude, a leader needs to be able to rely on their team and to have them able to improvise and act without them. Just look at how many time individual members of the Order or the whole Order managed to win without Roy directing them at every turn.

A good leader is not someone who barks order at people, a good leader is someone who manages to keep a team working together by chanelling each member's strength where it is needed and compensating for their weakness and by using their charisma to solve interpersonnal issues (or motivate people to go on).

What's even the point of having a specialist in a field on your team if you are not going to use their insight on their own chosen field?

[zimmerwald1915]

What's even the point of having a specialist in a field on your team if you are not going to use their insight on their own chosen field?

Good question, particularly considering that Roy is already his own specialist in wizardry, as he has demonstrated a number of times. Is the argument that Vaarsuvius brings nothing of value to the team and thus ought to be cut? Cause if so, you'll hear no disagreement from me.

[Keltest]

Good question, particularly considering that Roy is already his own specialist in wizardry, as he has demonstrated a number of times. Is the argument that Vaarsuvius brings nothing of value to the team and thus ought to be cut? Cause if so, you'll hear no disagreement from me.

Alternatively, we could draw our data from the comic and not from the alternate reality where you seem to want to live.

[Fyraltari]

Good question, particularly considering that Roy is already his own specialist in wizardry, as he has demonstrated a number of times.

What? When?

[Jasdoif]

I don't think we were supposed to get the impression it was the first time they interacted; rather that their casualness indicated prior familiarity.

I haven't the book in front of me for a close reading, but that is not at all the impression I got. Vaarsuvius had only recently left the Elven Lands, and the Iron Mage competition was more or less the first thing she did in the wider world. Where would she have met Haley before that?

My impression was that they knew each other on some minimal level...but then, the book didn't cut to them meeting, it cut to them talking; they could easily have met right there and the book just skipped over the beginning of the conversation.

And I should point out that Vaarsuvius attracted Sabine's attention in a similar setting.

[Peelee]

I haven't the book in front of me for a close reading, but that is not at all the impression I got. Vaarsuvius had only recently left the Elven Lands, and the Iron Mage competition was more or less the first thing she did in the wider world. Where would she have met Haley before that?

Fortunately, I have the PDFs downloaded on my work computer just for such occasions!

Spoiler: OtOoPCs

Show

Fun fact, I jumped in all prepped to agree with you, but V's bar chat with Haley and the Iron Mage competition happen on the same day, just 4 days prior to Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. They don't act like they have just met* (though this is very arguable**), but Haley also says that two weeks ago she was adventuring fighting kobolds, so if they didn't just meet in the bar, then they either met fairly recently, or Haley was adventuring intermittently without V.

*I say this mostly because of her casual, amicable "violence" against V, especially given V's pride and propensity for disproportionate response against those who offend them.

**ETA: Case in point, Jasdoif's point about V and Sabine does further the argument that they could easily have met that same day.

[zimmerwald1915]

What? When?

In On the Origin of PCs where he demonstrated finely-detailed knowledge of how fireball works, in Don't Split the Party where he was confident in analyzing Xykon's spell list himself, in the current book where Wrecan compared his use of his weapon's legacy powers to wizardry, Spellsplinter probably requires knowledge of how to perform spells the better to disrupt them, and on and on.

[Keltest]

In On the Origin of PCs where he demonstrated finely-detailed knowledge of how fireball works, in Don't Split the Party where he was confident in analyzing Xykon's spell list himself, in the current book where Wrecan compared his use of his weapon's legacy powers to wizardry, Spellsplinter probably requires knowledge of how to perform spells the better to disrupt them, and on and on.

There is a vast gulf between "I understand the basics" and "I am an expert". Academically, I have a moderate understanding of how a combustion engine works. I could never build or design one myself.

[Fyraltari]

In On the Origin of PCs where he demonstrated finely-detailed knowledge of how fireball works,

finely detailed knowledge of how fire works.

... Creation of a managed spherical energy release with a thermal signature no less than 1850°[sic] Kelvin, which can be manifested at specific x, y and z co-ordinates from verbal cues.

in Don't Split the Party where he was confident in analyzing Xykon's spell list himself

What make you think he never showed it to V?

in the current book where Wrecan compared his use of his weapon's legacy powers to wizardry,

If one knew how something works by knowing how something else related to it works, my studies would be muuuuuch easier.

Spellsplinter probably requires knowledge of how to perform spells, the better to disrupt them, and on and on.

The feat is about striking when the opponent is speaking. What do you need to know about wizardry to manage that?

[Peelee]

I appreciate that [sic], Fyraltari.

[Fyraltari]

I appreciate that [sic], Fyraltari.

Thank you.

[zimmerwald1915]

What make you think he never showed it to V?

Because he did show it to Durkon, onscreen.

If one knew how something works by knowing how something else related to it works, my studies would be muuuuuch easier.

The two things are characterized by Wrecan as being one and the same.

The feat is about striking when the opponent is speaking. What do you need to know about wizardry to manage that?

Taking the nearest published equivalent as a model, two ranks in Spellcraft worth.

In any event, Roy is characterized as Wizard material who made a choice to take a different career path. Nothing whatsoever, other than his pride, prevents him from taking a level of Wizard at next level-up and being exactly as much of an expert as Vaarsuvius.

[Keltest]

Because he did show it to Durkon, onscreen.


The two things are characterized by Wrecan as being one and the same.


Taking the nearest published equivalent as a model, two ranks in Spellcraft worth.

In any event, Roy is characterized as Wizard material who made a choice to take a different career path. Nothing whatsoever, other than his pride, prevents him from taking a level of Wizard at next level-up and being exactly as much of an expert as Vaarsuvius.

Nothing besides a couple dozen levels of experience.

[zimmerwald1915]

Nothing besides a couple dozen levels of experience.

Vaarsuvius is not Epic.

[Keltest]

Vaarsuvius is not Epic.

Youre right, sorry. My brain was trying to say two different things at once. try "a dozen".

[Fyraltari]

Because he did show it to Durkon, onscreen.

So he is consulting his team then?

The two things are characterized by Wrecan as being one and the same.

As it turn out physcs and chemistry are the same thing. Strangely enough I laways were better at physcs than chemistry.

Taking the nearest published equivalent as a model, two ranks in Spellcraft worth.

What do you mean by "nearest published equivalent"?

In any event, Roy is characterized as Wizard material who made a choice to take a different career path.

"Could have been a wizard" does not imply "knows as much as a Wizard does about wizardry" he explictly did not want to study that.

Nothing whatsoever, other than his pride, prevents him from taking a level of Wizard at next level-up and being exactly as much of an expert as Vaarsuvius.

Isn't being a level 1 wizard supposed to reflect that you don't know much about being a wizard?

[Mightymosy]

In On the Origin of PCs where he demonstrated finely-detailed knowledge of how fireball works, in Don't Split the Party where he was confident in analyzing Xykon's spell list himself, in the current book where Wrecan compared his use of his weapon's legacy powers to wizardry, Spellsplinter probably requires knowledge of how to perform spells the better to disrupt them, and on and on.

But isn't he also saying that he needs someone able to CAST Fireball, not only knowing about it in theory?

Because, I think that's what you need a team wizard for, and that's why Roy can not afford to cut V from the team, even if they might want to.

[Ruck]

I haven't the book in front of me for a close reading, but that is not at all the impression I got. Vaarsuvius had only recently left the Elven Lands, and the Iron Mage competition was more or less the first thing she did in the wider world. Where would she have met Haley before that?

My impression was that they knew each other on some minimal level...but then, the book didn't cut to them meeting, it cut to them talking; they could easily have met right there and the book just skipped over the beginning of the conversation.

And I should point out that Vaarsuvius attracted Sabine's attention in a similar setting.

Fortunately, I have the PDFs downloaded on my work computer just for such occasions!

Spoiler: OtOoPCs

Show

Fun fact, I jumped in all prepped to agree with you, but V's bar chat with Haley and the Iron Mage competition happen on the same day, just 4 days prior to Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. They don't act like they have just met* (though this is very arguable**), but Haley also says that two weeks ago she was adventuring fighting kobolds, so if they didn't just meet in the bar, then they either met fairly recently, or Haley was adventuring intermittently without V.

*I say this mostly because of her casual, amicable "violence" against V, especially given V's pride and propensity for disproportionate response against those who offend them.

**ETA: Case in point, Jasdoif's point about V and Sabine does further the argument that they could easily have met that same day.

To add to Peelee's reasoning why, the first thing we see Haley say is "Tough break, V." Pretty familiar-sounding to me. Obviously they couldn't have met all that long ago, logistically, as some of you have outlined (although it's not entirely clear how recently Aarindarius decided it was time for V to leave). But the conversation doesn't play like two people who are meeting for the first time.

To Jasdoif's point, I'd say that it's very clear Sabine and V are just meeting-- we cut to Sabine drunkenly introducing herself, whereas when we cut in on Haley and V, they're already engaged in conversation.

[woweedd]

Zim, whatever your dislike of V, I never though we'd reach the point where you're insisting that a Fighter, albeit a genius one, knows more about/is better able to wield magic then a wizard. Point is, Roy is not a spellcaster, and, even if he decided to become one, which he won't, it'd take him YEARS to match V's wealth of, game-mechanical and literal, experience. V is still useful to the party, indeed, they're arguably the most out-and-out powerful of the party, in terms of raw damage output,and your personal dislike for them, and/or Wizards in general, doe snot make that untrue.

[The Aboleth]

As for Roy, he's the one who needs information, not his subordinates. Their understanding of his orders, which he makes with the complete information, is not required - only their obedience. In fact, it is better that they not have all the information, because it keeps them dependent upon him.

This characterization of Roy's leadership hasn't been true since the party met Shojo, if it was ever true at all. Roy literally tears up everyone's contracts in front of them and says, essentially, "You don't have to keep doing this if you don't want to." Yes, they choose to stick with Roy and as such he is still their leader, but pretty much everything we are shown after that suggests that Roy regularly consults members of the Order on important matters and that he values their opinions.* At the very least, the big fight scene between the Order and Tarquin's Vector Legion allies should have made this abundantly clear.

*Except Belkar, though even that is changing (or has already changed since the HPoH was revealed at the Godsmoot).

[CriticalFailure]

I always got the impression Roy has high well rounded mental stats (and overall averages to be one of the most mentally gifted characters in the comic when all three are considered) but not the level typical to see as a primary casting stat in any one area.

[zimmerwald1915]

But isn't he also saying that he needs someone able to CAST Fireball, not only knowing about it in theory?

Because, I think that's what you need a team wizard for, and that's why Roy can not afford to cut V from the team, even if they might want to.

Roy has at his command a cleric, bard, and UMD-rogue. He does not need a wizard, and has indeed gotten by well enough without one in a pinch.

Or if he does need a wizard, he does not need Vaarsuvius. Cut her loose, and the Kaarkatoa or Etnaa the Order meets at the next tavern will do nicely.

This characterization of Roy's leadership hasn't been true since the party met Shojo, if it was ever true at all.

I'm not commenting on what Roy's leadership style is, rather on the minimum it needs to be. If he wants to treat his subordinates like trusted comrades, he can, but he by no means has to, nor should he necessarily.