Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[zimmerwald1915]

will the story be about a ragtag group of adventurers desperately seeking a way to reproduce before the entire population dies

What are you talking about? New Guardians had women in it.

[Prinygod]

No. The mortal Xykon was gambling his own mortal expiring life on the plan, he was 77 when he started it. Now it's different. He is immortal, provided that he keeps his phylactery safe. When Soon pointed out that he was going tondestroy the Phylactery, Xykon immediately forfeit the battle. His survival is his first concern, he simply is too much arrogant to think about it - except when is forced to think about it. And when he does, he escapes.

I never said that Xykon was suicidal, it pretty clear he doesn't want to be destroyed. My copy of sod is in storage some where, what's the exact quote? Even when he was young he would do things like fight a powerful wizard over a non magical crown, so its not like he made it to that age by playing it safe. Even if his impending death was a motive for starting on the plan, its no longer an incentive, the destruction of the first gate and his new found immortality would be a good opportunity to put the plan off indefinitely.

[Mightymosy]

Roy has at his command a cleric, bard, and UMD-rogue. He does not need a wizard, and has indeed gotten by well enough without one in a pinch.

Or if he does need a wizard, he does not need Vaarsuvius. Cut her loose, and the Kaarkatoa or Etnaa the Order meets at the next tavern will do nicely.


I'm not commenting on what Roy's leadership style is, rather on the minimum it needs to be. If he wants to treat his subordinates like trusted comrades, he can, but he by no means has to, nor should he necessarily.

Roy specifically asks for a team member who is able to cast Fireball.

I don't play D&D, so I don't know: Can clerics cast Fireball?

Your point on other wizards: fine. Let's agree that he could listen to Tarquin and find the next powerful volcanoe-named wizard in the next tavern...

[Keltest]

Roy specifically asks for a team member who is able to cast Fireball.

I don't play D&D, so I don't know: Can clerics cast Fireball?

Your point on other wizards: fine. Let's agree that he could listen to Tarquin and find the next powerful volcanoe-named wizard in the next tavern...

No, not even with the Fire Domain. They can get some other cool fire spells, but not fireball.

[zimmerwald1915]

No, not even with the Fire Domain. They can get some other cool fire spells, but not fireball.

Flame strike is far superior to fireball for Roy's purposes. Its only downside is that it is two levels higher, but its damage cap is also 5d6 higher, and its damage is not wholly blocked by fire resistance and protection. Even being two levels higher isn't entirely a downside, as its save DC is correspondingly higher, assuming equal ability score, feat, and item boosts.

[Keltest]

Flame strike is far superior to fireball for Roy's purposes. Its only downside is that it is two levels higher, but its damage cap is also 5d6 higher, and its damage is not wholly blocked by fire resistance and protection. Even being two levels higher isn't entirely a downside, as its save DC is correspondingly higher, assuming equal ability score, feat, and item boosts.

Im not about to diss on clerics, but was the Order a high enough level for Durkon or another similarly leveled blaster cleric to cast Flame Strike?

[Prinygod]

No, not even with the Fire Domain. They can get some other cool fire spells, but not fireball.

This is giantip forum, so some smartass is going to point out they can with miracle. So i might as well be this smart ass :p

[Keltest]

This is giantip forum, so some smartass is going to point out they can with miracle. So i might as well be this smart ass :p

But then theyre not casting fireball, theyre casting Miracle.

[zimmerwald1915]

Im not about to diss on clerics, but was the Order a high enough level for Durkon or another similarly leveled blaster cleric to cast Flame Strike?

Best guess is that the Order was level 8 when they entered the Dungeon of Dorukan, and leveled to 9 in Strip 12. Clerics get flame strike at level 9.

[Prinygod]

But then theyre not casting fireball, theyre casting Miracle.

We having a smart ass off? Which comic was it? Did Roy ask for a fire ball, or for some one to cast the 3rd level spell called fireball. I think Roy would have more of a problem with a 9th level spell being wasted than the result.

[Fyraltari]

We having a smart ass off? Which comic was it? Did Roy ask for a fire ball, or for some one to cast the 3rd level spell called fireball. I think Roy would have more of a problem with a 9th level spell being wasted than the result.

Spoiler: On the Origin of PCs, page 61

Show

ROY: I'm hiring you because I require the creation of a managed spherical energy release with a thermal signature no less than 1850° [sic]Kelvin, which can be manifested at specific X, Y and Z coordinates from verbal cues. I require this precise temperature because it is the mininum level at which necrotized epidermis has been proven to combust... and I have reasons to believe that my mission will require the incapacitation of multiple post-organic hostiles.
VAARSUVIUS: So... you need Fireball spells to toast the undead you expect to fight?
ROY: Did I stutter?

You make the call.

[Prinygod]

You make the call.

Yeah technically miracle would meet Roy's requirement. And I doubt he would complain that when looking for wizard, he found a cleric that can cast miracle instead ;)

Even so wizards bring alot to the table that clerics don't. But specifically against the undead I think I would take 2 clerics over a cleric and a Wizard But then why not 2 clerics and a wizard if you have that option? I don't see why having a cleric you wouldn't want/need a wizard.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yeah technically miracle would meet Roy's requirement. And I doubt he would complain that when looking for wizard, he found a cleric that can cast miracle instead ;)

He turned down two adventurers Durkon had found, who ended up storming the gates of Hell. Either or both may have been a 17th-or-higher-level cleric.

[Keltest]

Yeah technically miracle would meet Roy's requirement. And I doubt he would complain that when looking for wizard, he found a cleric that can cast miracle instead ;)

Sure. But then I didn't say Roy was looking for specifically fireball, I just said Clerics couldn't cast it, specifically.

[Peelee]

Yeah technically miracle would meet Roy's requirement. And I doubt he would complain that when looking for wizard, he found a cleric that can cast miracle instead ;)

Roy, laddie, I can cast Miracle now!
Great, use it to find us a wizard!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

[Vinyadan]

Yeah technically miracle would meet Roy's requirement. And I doubt he would complain that when looking for wizard, he found a cleric that can cast miracle instead ;)

Even so wizards bring alot to the table that clerics don't. But specifically against the undead I think I would take 2 clerics over a cleric and a Wizard But then why not 2 clerics and a wizard if you have that option? I don't see why having a cleric you wouldn't want/need a wizard.

Why not just take 4 clerics, though? To handle the massive clanking, cast silence.

[Peelee]

Why not just take 4 clerics, though? To handle the massive clanking, cast silence.

Four clerics? It'll never work.

[Vinyadan]

http://agc.deskslave.org/comics/AGC247.GIF

[woweedd]

Four clerics? It'll never work.

In fairness, D And D Clerics are WAY stronger and more versatile then White Mages. White Mages basically can’t do anything but heal. Clerics are second to only one class in versatility. This is where the stereotypes of healers being bossy jerks, tired of dealing with everyone’s injuries, comes from. In, say, an MMO, that behavior makes no sense, since role protection means a dedicated healer can do almost nothing other then healing. But, in D And D, your choice isn’t “heal the barbarian” or “don’t heal the barbarian”. It’s “heal the barbarian” or “use that spell slot to Chain Lightning the problem to death yourself”.

[Prinygod]

Sure. But then I didn't say Roy was looking for specifically fireball, I just said Clerics couldn't cast it, specifically.

I suppose that can be technically true, from a certain view point. I would say that casting miracle to duplicate a fireball spell, is casting a fireball using transitive logic. Either way I see your point.

[Kish]

http://agc.deskslave.org/comics/AGC247.GIF

Or if you want to read the entire plot arc about all of them playing dwarf clerics through that fictional module, it starts here.

(Though fairness requires me to note that it would seem at least slightly less powerful had the author not misremembered how Weapon Familiarity works--probably because the dwarf he talks about being in his actual D&D campaign was a fighter/ranger/Dwarven Defender, not a class without martial weapon proficiency.)

[Prinygod]

Or if you want to read the entire plot arc about all of them playing dwarf clerics through that fictional module, it starts here.

(Though fairness requires me to note that it would seem at least slightly less powerful had the author not misremembered how Weapon Familiarity works--probably because the dwarf he talks about being in his actual D&D campaign was a fighter/ranger/Dwarven Defender, not a class without martial weapon proficiency.)

For fun once I made a party of all clerics, who used clerics flexibility to cover archetypes of other classes. Its gets more crazy in pathfinder, where you have optional archetypes.

[martianmister]

Thing is, Shojo had no real choice because Elan was hundred percent guilty of that crime, and Elan is only free because Shojo cheated justice. In hindsight, Hinjo should arrest him again.

[Fyraltari]

Thing is, Shojo had no real choice because Elan was hundred percent guilty of that crime, and Elan is only free because Shojo cheated justice. In hindsight, Hinjo should arrest him again.

I don't think Hinjo believes he has authority to do that anymore. The Sapphire Gaurd's mandate ended with the Sapphire itself and Elan broke no Azurite law. Besides Hinjo knows for a fact that arresting Elan would serve no purpose and be actually detrimental to the goal of saving the world.

[Peelee]

Thing is, Shojo had no real choice because Elan was hundred percent guilty of that crime, and Elan is only free because Shojo cheated justice. In hindsight, Hinjo should arrest him again.

Under who's authority? He's no longer a member of the Sapphire Guard, who were the only ones to claim universal jurisdiction.

[martianmister]

I'm pretty sure that threatening Azure City's existence is a crime itself.

[Fyraltari]

I'm pretty sure that threatening Azure City's existence is a crime itself.

And the point of arresting Elan for that would be what exactly? Hinjo is Lawful Good not Lawful Dumb.

[Peelee]

I'm pretty sure that threatening Azure City's existence is a crime itself.

If I threaten Constantinople's existence, I'll still feel fairly safe from their police knocking on my door.

On a related note, I hear it might be your business why Constantinople got the works.

[Fyraltari]

Constantinople

It's called Byzantium. Why did it got the works? That's nobody's business but the Romans.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's called Byzantium. Why did got the works? That's nobody's business but the Romans.

Nobody's business but the Megarans, surely?