Why didn't Shojo just send his wizard to fetch the order?

[zimmerwald1915]

This is ridiculous. My position is that it was reasonnable for Celia to guess that her appeal to be given the actual charge of her clients based on the fact that the court summoned what she believed (and the court belivied) to be a being of pure good and law to act as decision-maker.

We did not change the subject.

Celia's motion was not made to the ostensible Being of Pure Law and Good, it was made to Shojo. That Azure City uses Beings of Pure Law and Good as fact-finders (and, FWIW, I took the summoning of a Being of Pure Law and Good to be a somewhat usual occurrance that Eugene happened to disrupt, not a one-time thing such that Eugene was ever the only person serving as fact-finder in an Azure City criminal trial) has no bearing on its rules of criminal procedure.

The separate fact-finder exists, in part, to be a common-sense check on procedural rules that may unduly prejudice one side or the other in a given matter.

[Fyraltari]

Celia's motion was not made to the ostensible Being of Pure Law and Good, it was made to Shojo. That Azure City uses Beings of Pure Law and Good as fact-finders (and, FWIW, I took the summoning of a Being of Pure Law and Good to be a somewhat usual occurrance that Eugene happened to disrupt, not a one-time thing such that Eugene was ever the only person serving as fact-finder in an Azure City criminal trial) has no bearing on its rules of criminal procedure.

The separate fact-finder exists, in part, to be a common-sense check on procedural rules that may unduly prejudice one side or the other in a given matter.

But:
1) What did she have to lose by trying that? and
2) If the court system commonly associates with being that are objectively, measurably Good^TM, it isn't unreasonnable to assume that the court system is trying to be fair.

[zimmerwald1915]

But:
1) What did she have to lose by trying that?

By trying a hail mary in a court whose rules of criminal procedure she didn't know? Anything from her [nonexistent] license to her head. That's the peril of playing in a forum with unfamiliar rules.

2) If the court system commonly associates with being that are objectively, measurably Good^TM, it isn't unreasonnable to assume that the court system is trying to be fair.

Celestia itself has an inquisitorial system where it judges petitioners based on a record that the petitioner cannot review except from memory, but from which the inquisitor can cherry-pick items to quiz the petitioner about, and lacks a process to appeal the inquisitor's judgment.

I doubt very strongly that its ideas about procedural fairness and their relation to Goodness or Law matches yours.

[Peelee]

By trying a hail mary in a court whose rules of criminal procedure she didn't know? Anything from her [nonexistent] license to her head. That's the peril of playing in a forum with unfamiliar rules.

Surely you can widen the range there? Angering the judge is never a good idea, I'm led to believe.

[Fyraltari]

By trying a hail mary in a court whose rules of criminal procedure she didn't know? Anything from her [nonexistent] license to her head. That's the peril of playing in a forum with unfamiliar rules.

"hail mary"? Also I am still unsure what your basis for her not knowing the procedure is.

Celestia itself has an inquisitorial system where it judges petitioners based on a record that the petitioner cannot review except from memory, but from which the inquisitor can cherry-pick items to quiz the petitioner about, and lacks a process to appeal the inquisitor's judgment.

I doubt very strongly that its ideas about procedural fairness and their relation to Goodness or Law matches yours.

The difference being they are not conducting a trial over a specific incident but a review of an entire lifetime to decipher wether the person in question meet a specific criterion. Oranges and apples.

[Peelee]

"hail mary"?

A longshot. Something with little chance of success. Common term in American football.

[zimmerwald1915]

"hail mary"? Also I am still unsure what your basis for her not knowing the procedure is.

Apart from being 1) in school, 2) in school for less than a year, and 3) in school in a foreign jurisdiction? She didn't know that the secret handshake was for sidebar conferences.

The difference being they are not conducting a trial over a specific incident but a review of an entire lifetime to decipher wether the person in question meet a specific criterion. Oranges and apples.

Ah, so the more important a decision is, the fewer procedural safeguards there should be?

[Fyraltari]

A longshot. Something with little chance of success. Common term in American football.

Thank you.

Apart from being 1) in school and 2) in school in a foreign jurisdiction? She didn't know that the secret handshake was for sidebar conferences.

I don't have a reply to that. I'll think about it.

Ah, so the more important a decision is, the fewer procedural safeguards there should be?

Safeguards against what? We know from the Giant that each soul can only go to an afterlife that matches it and cannaot not have a matching afterlife, they can't be wrong about that stuff, and we kind of have to assume their methods of data gathering can't either. But mortal courts don't have these luxuries do they? Would the actual being of pure law and good known the facts of the case before the trial, would they even have known who the accused are? If not, then proper defense is necessary.

[zimmerwald1915]

Safeguards against what?

Apparently, against letting in someone who doesn't belong. For whatever reason that's important. If petitioners can't enter the wrong planes, there would be no need for a review process. If the review process can't be wrong, there would be no need for a big book of rules ight with holy fire for the reviewer to follow.

Would the actual being of pure law and good known the facts of the case before the trial, would they even have known who the accused are? If not, then proper defense is necessary.

The finder of fact can know the whole set of relevant facts from the prosecution's case file. Shojo even mentions that it does. And it was going to issue a not-Guilty verdict before it ever heard the Order's testimony - which contained maybe, MAYBE!, one relevant and/or mitigating fact.

The only reason to let the defense in on the evidence is to establish a veneer of fairness such that the defense and any onlookers (which there aren't in this secret trial) will accept the verdict as legitimate. Here there is another source of legitimacy, whose efficacy in providing legitimacy is such that you yourself are quite stuck on it: the verdict is delivered by an infallible Being of Pure Law and Good (supposedly).

[Vinyadan]

Nobody's business but the Megarans, surely?

They are too busy insulting Athenian manhoods.

[Keltest]

Apparently, against letting in someone who doesn't belong. For whatever reason that's important. If petitioners can't enter the wrong planes, there would be no need for a review process. If the review process can't be wrong, there would be no need for a big book of rules ight with holy fire for the reviewer to follow.


The finder of fact can know the whole set of relevant facts from the prosecution's case file. Shojo even mentions that it does. And it was going to issue a not-Guilty verdict before it ever heard the Order's testimony - which contained maybe, MAYBE!, one relevant and/or mitigating fact.

The only reason to let the defense in on the evidence is to establish a veneer of fairness such that the defense and any onlookers (which there aren't in this secret trial) will accept the verdict as legitimate. Here there is another source of legitimacy, whose efficacy in providing legitimacy is such that you yourself are quite stuck on it: the verdict is delivered by an infallible Being of Pure Law and Good (supposedly).

Ok, but presumably the paladins would be interested in actually seeing justice done rather than a kangaroo court where the paladins can do anything they want because nobody is allowed to question their authority. Compromising the ability of the defense to do their job would delegitimize the trial in the eyes of the paladins (and, frankly, any real being of Pure Law And Good would likely also insist on the accused understanding the charges as a prerequisite for legitimacy).

[Lacuna Caster]

Roy has at his command a cleric, bard, and UMD-rogue. He does not need a wizard, and has indeed gotten by well enough without one in a pinch.

Or if he does need a wizard, he does not need Vaarsuvius. Cut her loose, and the Kaarkatoa or Etnaa the Order meets at the next tavern will do nicely.

That's Tarquin idea of how things work, and Tarquin is kind of wrong about everything really. Furthermore:

The idea that you can walk into any tavern and 2-5 adventurers of high level will be there is literally a joke. It may be how it works in OOTS, but only because OOTS is a parody. It's making fun of the fact that because every D&D game needs to start with the players "meeting" each other, lazy DMs have them all walk into the same tavern at the same time looking for work. The truth is, in an average D&D world, you can walk into a tavern and find 2-5 adventurers under 5th level—people who are just starting their career and looking for any lead they can get—and then it gets harder the higher level you want. No wizard of Vaarsuvius' level hangs out in a tavern waiting to be hired by a kingdom to go rough up the baron next door, though. If he wants money, he plane shifts to the Elemental Plane of Earth and digs out a diamond the size of a watermelon.

To be fair, in DCF, Durkon digs up a pair of epic-level adventurers ready to storm the gates of hell who were effectively hanging out at the same tavern.

In any case, logic that might apply to the world at large does not necessarily apply to PCs. I'm pretty sure if a high-level PC somehow dies permanently in a given campaign, the GM is roughly as likely to contrive some way for a new PC to join the team as they are at lower levels. It's ultimately a function of the number of players, not the statistical power-distribution of the setting. And it's somewhat difficult to argue against this in a world where, for example, Crystal automagically gains levels to keep up with Haley.

[hamishspence]

To be fair, in DCF, Durkon digs up a pair of epic-level adventurers ready to storm the gates of hell who were effectively hanging out at the same tavern.

They're never actually called epic. It's quite possible that they're overly arrogant upper-mid-level ones.

I could see their "storming the gates of hell" being only in the same sense that this group "stormed the gates of heaven":

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0497.html

I.E. they plane-shifted in, fought a few devils for XP, and (unlike the Evil party) survived to Plane Shift out.


Durkon may not have found them in the same tavern, either - it's unclear where in the town he met them. He and Roy split up to go recruiting.

[Lacuna Caster]

They're never actually called epic. It's quite possible that they're overly arrogant upper-mid-level ones...

No, I think the overall thrust of the joke was clearly implying that these were party candidates of nigh-godlike power that Durkon turns down simply by being overly polite to Roy. Quibbling about the details is missing the point.

On a more practical note, I might suggest that the Godsmoot is stuffed with senior divine casters, many of whom serve good-aligned deities and/or those with a general interest in the world not ending. It would not, in principle, be impossible to persuade a couple to join the Order for the confrontation with Xykon, in the event that Roy, for whatever reason, decided that V was more a liability than an asset.

[Fyraltari]

To be fair, in DCF, Durkon digs up a pair of epic-level adventurers ready to storm the gates of hell who were effectively hanging out at the same tavern.

Yeah, and that's a joke. That only happened because Roy wasn't going to hire them.

In any case, logic that might apply to the world at large does not necessarily apply to PCs. I'm pretty sure if a high-level PC somehow dies permanently in a given campaign, the GM is roughly as likely to contrive some way for a new PC to join the team as they are at lower levels. It's ultimately a function of the number of players, not the statistical power-distribution of the setting.

All of that is true for a campaign, yes. But this is not a game of D&D. This is a story. Everything that happens, happens because the Giant wants it to. If he states that no high-level wizard hangs out in a tavern looking for work then none does. He doesn't have to make provision for his main characters dying because of a bad roll or a dumb decision because he decides the rolls, decisions and their consequences. And indeed when the party was split or when their high-level Cleric died there was no completely unknown high level spellcaster available to help in any place they looked.

And it's somewhat difficult to argue against this in a world where, for example, Crystal automagically gains levels to keep up with Haley.

So? There was a need for a high level ennemy in this spot of the story with some connection with Haley. The Giant had a choice between leaving Crystal high-level status unexplained, leaving the reader to make the necessary inferrence of life of adventure (like he does for every other high level adventurer) or make a joke about it. He chose to make a joke about it.
If the Giant ever decides for some reason that the Order needs to replace Vaarsuvius, he'd have a choice between making a compelling subplot of that person's recruitment explaining why the Order would trust them and why they would want to work with them or having them show up in a tavern. I, for one, think he would do the former.

Also, on a purely strategic level Roy would be stupid to fire his current wizard before having any certainty of having a immediate replacement.

[hamishspence]

No, I think the overall thrust of the joke was clearly implying that these were party candidates of nigh-godlike power that Durkon turns down simply by being overly polite to Roy.

Yeah, and that's a joke. That only happened because Roy wasn't going to hire them.

Them being level 15 or so is more plausible than them being level 21+ or so. Given that the Order were all around level 8 at that point, they still would have overshadowed Roy massively in power, had Roy offered them a chance to join up.

[Lacuna Caster]

All of that is true for a campaign, yes. But this is not a game of D&D. This is a story. Everything that happens, happens because the Giant wants it to...

This is a tautological argument. If you're going to say that anything that happens in the story happens because the author wants it to, there's nothing to stop him wanting to introduce a new high-level caster to replace V (or any other PC, for that matter.)

So? There was a need for a high level ennemy in this spot of the story with some connection with Haley. The Giant had a choice between leaving Crystal high-level status unexplained, leaving the reader to make the necessary inferrence of life of adventure (like he does for every other high level adventurer) or make a joke about it. He chose to make a joke about it...

I'm sorry, but you can't just decouple the implied mechanics of the setting here from other elements of the story. In the same sense that having teleport and sending spells makes aspects of Shojo's decision-making look deeply baffling, there are obviously aspects of the OOTSverse which are finely-tuned to serve the specific needs of player-characters. If V was obliterated tomorrow, I don't see any mechanical impediments to finding a new one. High-level wizards might not need money, but I'd wager that many are attached to the general existence of the material plane.

None of this is to say that disassociating from V is something I think Roy should objectively be doing. I've more-or-less lost interest in anything that happens to the Order, at this point. But the metagame arguments against it aren't really sound, and the simulationist arguments aren't really that tricky to work around post-Godsmoot.

[hamishspence]

What we have here is 1) another example of Vaarsuvius trusting Haley over the guys, which might say something about whether Vaarsuvius is likely to share information with Haley but not the reverse, and 2) an example of Haley withholding information from Vaarsuvius.

Neither of which goes to show that Haley would share information she knows with Vaarsuvius. If anything, they go to show the opposite.

The point is that Haley tells V almost everything except her deepest, darkest secrets. That V knows more of Haley's secrets than the rest of the party do - it's only Haley's deepest secrets that V does not know.

[Fyraltari]

This is a tautological argument. If you're going to say that anything that happens in the story happens because the author wants it to, there's nothing to stop him wanting to introduce a new high-level caster to replace V (or any other PC, for that matter.)

You mean besides that it would be bad storytelling? A GM would have a reason to do so despite it being bad stroytelling: keeping the player in the game despite the death of their character something over which the GM had little-to-no control over. Why would the Giant do that?

I'm sorry, but you can't just decouple the implied mechanics of the setting here from other elements of the story.

Accepting that for a moment, all that says is that whatever wizard V has more beef with at the moment (so most likely Z) would be at least as high level as they are. That does not help replace V at all.

In the same sense that having teleport and sending spells makes aspects of Shojo's decision-making look deeply baffling, there are obviously aspects of the OOTSverse which are finely-tuned to serve the specific needs of player-characters.

What you find obvious has little weight next to what the author said doesn't happen in his story.

If V was obliterated tomorrow, I don't see any mechanical impediments to finding a new one.

How about: high-level characters, of any class, are really rare? Because that's what the comic shows. and what the author states unless I'm mistaken [Summon Banana IX].

High-level wizards might not need money, but I'd wager that many are attached to the general existence of the material plane.

Which would be relevant if the Order knew any. And could contact them. And convince them to help. None showed up when a billion hobgoblins stomped up and down Hinjo's face and a huge tear in the fabric of reality appeared over a major trade hub. when would any show up now?

None of this is to say that disassociating from V is something I think Roy should objectively be doing. I've more-or-less lost interest in anything that happens to the Order, at this point.

May I ask why you continue reading, then?

But the metagame arguments against it aren't really sound, and the simulationist arguments aren't really that tricky to work around post-Godsmoot.

What is that supposed to mean?

[Lacuna Caster]

Doo-dee-doo. Last couple of pages have been surprisingly light, oddly enough.

True, but it's still massive amounts of energy. Also, I'm not even going to pretend like I have a good grasp on relativity, but does it matter that teleportation spells don't accelerate you? It's more like the spooky action at a distance on a large-scale there; you're just disappearing somewhere and reappearing somewhere else simultaneously.

The various creation/conjuring/summoning spells, in principle, don't make stuff up ex-nihilo, they draw subtance, energy, objects or creatures from another plane of existence. Which is still a violation of all kinds of physical laws, sure, but not mass-energy conservation per se.

[Lacuna Caster]

You mean besides that it would be bad storytelling? A GM would have a reason to do so despite it being bad storytelling...

Well, you don't know that. You haven't read that version of the story and you don't know how well or badly-constructed it would turn out to be. For my own part, I don't see a way to distinguish 'character makes revealing decision, has long-term consequences' from 'here is a story'. 'Roy decides V is untrustworthy and disassociates from him' is a revealing decision. Maybe deciding to trust a relative stranger on a mission to determine the fate of the world would indeed turn out badly for the party, but hey, that's also a long-term consequence. Boom, story.

How about: high-level characters, of any class, are really rare...?

Like I said, we just had a scene where lots of high-level characters (albeit mostly clerics) were all gathered in one place, many of whom have a specific god-given mandate to protect the material plane. The real question here is why half of them haven't been sent to the Order's job already.

May I ask why you continue reading, then?

I don't, for the most part. I visit the forums from time to time to catch up on discussions and stick up for certain overly-maligned paladins, but I haven't read the strip with any real interest since around, oh, Girard's Gate.

[zimmerwald1915]

Accepting that for a moment, all that says is that whatever wizard V has more beef with at the moment (so most likely Z) would be at least as high level as they are. That does not help replace V at all.

Why not? Zz'dtri has no beef with the rest of the Order, and as long as the pay's good, would probably work with them if they resurrected him.

How about: high-level characters, of any class, are really rare? Because that's what the comic shows. and what the author states unless I'm mistaken [Summon Banana IX].

Well. Qarr says as much. But Qarr is a liar.

[Fyraltari]

Well, you don't know that. You haven't read that version of the story and you don't know how well or badly-constructed it would turn out to be. For my own part, I don't see a way to distinguish 'character makes revealing decision, has long-term consequences' from 'here is a story'. 'Roy decides V is untrustworthy and disassociates from him' is a revealing decision. Maybe deciding to trust a relative stranger on a mission to determine the fate of the world would indeed turn out badly for the party, but hey, that's also a long-term consequence. Boom, story.

It's a really rare story where ditching one of your protagonists whose personal arc is not yet complete during the last book to replace them with a total stranger that's superficially like them is not bad storytelling. So I may not know that it would be but I am reasonnably confident that it would.

Like I said, we just had a scene where lots of high-level characters (albeit mostly clerics) were all gathered in one place, many of whom have a specific god-given mandate to protect the material plane. The real question here is why half of them haven't been sent to the Order's job already.

Because the gods are not allowed to tell their followers of the Snarl if they don't already know about it and because leaving now would negate their deity of choice's vote in the fate of the world.

I don't, for the most part. I visit the forums from time to time to catch up on discussions and stick up for certain overly-maligned paladins, but I haven't read the strip with any real interest since around, oh, Girard's Gate.

Well you do you I guess but that's kind of baffling to me.

EDIT:

Why not? Zz'dtri has no beef with the rest of the Order, and as long as the pay's good, would probably work with them if they resurrected him.

Yeah, we don't really know what motivates Z beyond pay and hatred of V, but I doubt the Order would be willing to work with him, given that he is prone to attack innocents for no reason and Roy was still angry at Thog for murdering the Earth sylph. Also the tactical advantage of hiring someone who has tailored their build to defeat a specific type of opponent that none of their current ennemies possess is questionable. I mean, he flew when confronted with YukYuk, Oona would walk over him.

Well. Qarr says as much. But Qarr is a liar.

Qarr and the general dearth of high-level characters seen in comic. Roy was the highest level character present in Azure City when he died for crying out loud.

[Aveline]

Well you do you I guess but that's kind of baffling to me.

I have no input to the conversation at large, but if Lacuna Caster enjoys parts of the work then it's valid to stick around and discuss those parts, even if they aren't the parts that are currently developing. It just means those discussions will be more scarce. This thread is happening, for example.

[Kish]

They're never actually called epic. It's quite possible that they're overly arrogant upper-mid-level ones. [etc.]

One of you is treating a throwaway joke as an indication of a plot hole again, the other is attempting to argue away that joke as a refutation to the plot hole claim.

A plague on both your houses.

[Lacuna Caster]

Why not? Zz'dtri has no beef with the rest of the Order, and as long as the pay's good, would probably work with them if they resurrected him.

Out of all the available choices, Zim, I would have to say this ranks close to the bottom. Personally, I'd incline to ask what V's mentor Aarindarius is up to.

It's a really rare story where ditching one of your protagonists whose personal arc is not yet complete during the last book to replace them with a total stranger that's superficially like them is not bad storytelling...

Why? The Wire or Game of Thrones killed off primetime characters with considerable regularity and introduced new ones at a similar rate. There are certainly plenty of fans who were attached to their beaus and possibly saddened/upset in consequence, but I don't think anyone complained this was intrinsically terrible storytelling.

Because the gods are not allowed to tell their followers of the Snarl if they don't already know about it and because leaving now would negate their deity of choice's vote in the fate of the world...

Factors that only exist because the author decided they would. Two can play at this game, Fry.

[Fyraltari]

I have no input to the conversation at large, but if Lacuna Caster enjoys parts of the work then it's valid to stick around and discuss those parts, even if they aren't the parts that are currently developing. It just means those discussions will be more scarce. This thread is happening, for example.

Oh, I have no problem with Lacuna coming here if he enjoyed part of the comic or even none if he simply enjoy coming here for it's own sake. More power to him. It's just that I don't understand enjoying conversations about a subject I have no more interest in. To each his own.

[Lacuna Caster]

One of you is treating a throwaway joke as an indication of a plot hole again...

'Again'? I'm not sure there's any clear distinction, but what other throwaway jokes do you think I've over-fixated on?

Oh, I have no problem with Lacuna coming here if he enjoyed part of the comic or even none if he simply enjoy coming here for it's own sake. More power to him. It's just that I don't understand enjoying conversations about a subject I have no more interest in. To each his own.

Well, I was mainly checking back to see if the conversation about Miko/Shojo et al was going anywhere, and found out that the last 6 pages or so were mainly going on about V and magic-physics for some reason. So, you know, when in Rome.

[zimmerwald1915]

It's a really rare story where ditching one of your protagonists whose personal arc is not yet complete

To whom are you referring? Because Vaarsuvius's personal arc was complete the moment she confessed to Roy toward the end of Blood Runs in the Family. Everything else is window-dressing, because personal arcs like hers can't come to a conclusion. They must continue after the story. One of the Blood Runs in the Family commentaries says as much.

Yeah, we don't really know what motivates Z beyond pay and hatred of V, but I doubt the Order would be willing to work with him, given that he is prone to attack innocents for no reason and Roy was still angry at Thog for murdering the Earth sylph.

The Order contains Belkar and Vaarsuvius (and even in the scenario where Vaarsuvius was expelled, would still contain Belkar), who have few to no compunctions about "attacking innocents for no reason."

Also the tactical advantage of hiring someone who has tailored their build to defeat a specific type of opponent that none of their current ennemies possess is questionable. I mean, he flew when confronted with YukYuk, Oona would walk over him.

You're right, having boosted spell resistance would be of no conceivable use when your primary targets are an Epic Sorcerer who does little but cast attack spells, and a high-level Cleric. But no, it's Oona the Order really needs to worry about - and can't be handled by someone else in the Order besides the party wizard. Advantages of partying up and all that.

Qarr and the general dearth of high-level characters seen in comic. Roy was the highest level character present in Azure City when he died for crying out loud.

The highest-level Good character - according to Eugene. Who is also a liar.

And the sample size of "people the Order has hung out with" is not sufficient to conclude that high-level characters are rare in their world.

[Fyraltari]

Out of all the available choices, Zim, I would have to say this ranks close to the bottom. Personally, I'd incline to ask what V's mentor Aarindarius is up to.

His own stuff, probably. The Mechane crew seems kind of blasé about the whole saving the world thing, and this is a World of ADVENTURE^TM so I would guess people as high-level as they are don't get overly worried every tiem there's a new threat to the w

Why? The Wire or Game of Thrones killed off primetime characters with considerable regularity and introduced new ones at a similar rate. There are certainly plenty of fans who were attached to their beaus and possibly saddened/upset in consequence, but I don't think anyone complained this was intrinsically terrible storytelling.

Dunno about the Wire, but A Song of Ice and Fire, and so I guess its TV adaptation, does not kill as many main characters as its reputation suggests, does so less and less as the story (slooooooooowly) approaches its conclusion and never without them having completed their narrative arcs. Also it never replaces them. Noboy took Ned's, Joffrey's or Rob's place in the story, for example.

Factors that only exist because the author decided they would.

My, it's almost as if the author does not want to replace one of his protagonists. What shock.

Two can play at this game, Fry.

Fyr*.